amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

I've spent quality time with Amanda. Never seen the Cure though. I would like to.

Always hated this woman, her music, her shitty graphic design & her terrible personal brand.

Jeez.

Anyway...

I never ever had this close a connection to any rock star, father figure, or (day I see it) hero type as so many people have done. To the extent that I wanted to follow them or be them (beyond the thought that I'd like that job yeah, sure)...

Even to the extent that I don't even have a default understanding of the mindset beyond appreciating how someone else might feel in the situation.

Anyway, nice letter, it's good to be happy.

my extreme distate for dresden dolls, that letter, her wordiness, etc, put me off listening to 'who killed amanda palmer' until now but I really like it, it's a good record.

She may not get a lot of ILM love, but getting crowdfunded to the tune of $1m is still something worthy of note, I would say.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020

also recently filled in for erykah badu as bathtub fodder

25,000 people pledged an average of $50... how

25,000 people pledged an average of $50... how

I was sitting next to the writer Neil Gaiman in a pizzeria today, and he was with this lady with tattooed eyebrows and a bunch of Bard kids who appeared to be shlepping them around.

Tonight I learned that she's Amanda Palmer, and they're married. Also that Gaiman is some kind of Upper Poobah Lightning Level Scientologist (son of former U.K. Scientology boss and Vitamin mogul David Gaiman), and that many suspect the $1 million was just poured in through Sea.Org (fancy Scientology people) as part of a pretty sneaky publicity stunt....

and now I guess I should be drawing the blinds or changing my display name or something

Also that Gaiman is some kind of Upper Poobah Lightning Level Scientologist

this is not true, although his family are still. (he was actually listed as supressive for a long time iirc). and anyone who needs to make up conspiracy theories abt Palmer's fanbase and social media aptitude has prob not read anything about her, or spoken to anyone who likes her, in the last five years.

What's a suppressive?

WTF Church of Scientology is in my iPhone! Just resumed scrabble game and "Hard" robot played ENGRAM(!)

^true

Wait hold on

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/rockers-playing-for-beer-fair-play/?hp

um

isn't that the entire point of funding your enterprise via Kickstarter, so that you can raise enough money for the things you want

on the flip side, this appears to be a "hey fan musicians, I invite you to play with me for a night on stage" thing and, as such, should be looked upon as a giveaway for amateur musicians rather than a solicitation for professionals

hahah goddamn musicians union folks are weird. DJP otm.

oh don't get me wrong, if she was doing this to drum up her core band she would deserve every bit of invective and more

What's the distinction your drawing there, though? "one gig vs a tour" or "horns & strings vs guitar/drums" or "a few songs vs the whole show"?

*you're

If she's doing a "let me bring out enthusiastic fans at each show to do a song or two" thing, then who cares

If she's doing a "let me fill out my band for the majority of my set with people I don't have to actually pay" thing, she should fuck off

i had never paid any attention to this person until this musician thing, which is shitty. but even shitter, she apparently was dating (pre-gaiman) someone who was a recovered drug addict and relapsed, and she faked a suicide attempt to show him how hurt she was by it, and recorded his reaction to finding her and thinking she had killed herself, and used it on an album. he later committed suicide. how is this person real?! that is stomach turning.

holy shit, is that for real

http://youtu.be/h57XWrFNGs8

5:10

this woman, holy shit

I hated this woman anyway for being a total shit to my friends when they were doing Weill cabaret, this is next level

ennh, she was 18 and the "gf fakes a suicide" -> "he commits suicide" connection doesn't ring true for me. It is so fucked up that she'd put that recording on an album, though, oh my god.

and christ, pay your musicians. Amateur vs. professional who the fuck cares. More like "I am blessed with a worshipful fanbase now let me exploit you for cheap labour"

haha Owen I think we're pretty much on the same page here with minor deviations

like... always?

he said here.

ennh, she was 18 and the "gf fakes a suicide" -> "he commits suicide" connection doesn't ring true for me. It is so fucked up that she'd put that recording on an album, though, oh my god

yeah i wasn't making the connection that he committed suicide because of her, it was more of an aside. but faking suicide is horribly abusive behavior, and using the recording on an album implies she has no remorse about it.

If she's doing a "let me bring out enthusiastic fans at each show to do a song or two" thing, then who cares

If she's doing a "let me fill out my band for the majority of my set with people I don't have to actually pay" thing, she should fuck off

― DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Thursday, September 13, 2012 2:18 PM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is OTM. I think if one of my favourite bands put out a call for people to show up and play either a track they already know or jam out some psych a la Suzuki's Network, I'd jump at it and not expect payment. However, if it was "please learn my entire set, be present at a rehearsal, play for the entire show or at least when and where I expect you to" then I would find that a very different proposition indeed.

The string/horn sections she pulled together for the immediate post-Kickstarter mini-tour thing were all fans who opted in. They were asked to learn two songs I think, and turn up in time to soundcheck - and they looked like the happiest damn fans on earth onstage (as well as actually being really good).

i had never paid any attention to this person until this musician thing, which is shitty. but even shitter, she apparently was dating (pre-gaiman) someone who was a recovered drug addict and relapsed, and she faked a suicide attempt to show him how hurt she was by it, and recorded his reaction to finding her and thinking she had killed herself, and used it on an album. he later committed suicide. how is this person real?! that is stomach turning.

She's also ableist. I think she's an asshole.

You guys don't understand, she's an artist. You can't be an artist and an asshole at the same time, they're like matter / anti-matter.

(If I listen carefully, I can probably hear DJP's reaction to that from across the Atlantic)

I think a lot of the greatest artists have been complete and total assholes, and she's certainly living up to that. But women get given a harder time for ~not being nice~ and the level of assholehood required to be a ~great~ artist, so I try to cut female rock stars some slack on that count, i.e. The Courtney Love Clause.

The problem is, I've never heard any work of Amanda Palmer's that actually inspired me or blew me away in the way that I require ~great art~ to do. Which may well be my failure to appreciate it. So it's complicated.

Oy oy oy, that Evelyn Evelyn thing. I would have no problem if it was a Victoriana/Steampunk concept album about conjoined twins, really, but... positioning them in the contemporary world? Pretending that you rescued them? Giving *quite* such a distressing backstory to the record? DRESSING as them?

Yeah, that thing Nicole posted, that was the thing that really just crystalised a lot of the floating discomfort I'd been experiencing about her and her schtick. But, like I said, it's complicated.

but faking suicide is horribly abusive behavior, and using the recording on an album implies she has no remorse about it.

I've not knowingly heard an amanda palmer record but she reminds me so so so strongly of girls i used to know -- there can be this sense that making art around something shitty that you did is a way of working through it, the experience and your own behaviour? I mean, to me it is a terrible thing to have used that recording on an album that you release and get money for, but I can sense the edges of the logic that leads to it. Also i do not think her behaviour can be held responsible for his later suicide.

Like WCC says, it's complicated - because there've been these girls I knew who would have been so happy to grow up into Amanda Palmer, the very phenomenon of her existence is dear to me -- even when she does stuff like the Evelyn Evelyn project, which was frankly repulsive.

I think I'm probably misreading you, WCC - your first paragraph seems to suggest that there's a minimum level of assholehood required to be a great artists? But your second suggests that if she was a great artist, she'd get a reduction in effective assholehood?

in short, Great artists tend to be assholes, but assholes do not tend to be great artists.

I try to see her side of this - I have a friend who crowds the stage with on-the-spot audience volunteers to clap on this one song & he loves it & so do they & it's often as much of the audience as can fit on the stage; that's not my style, but if people are into it, who does it hurt - but paying musicians who play with me is extremely important to me and to the survival of the craft as craft. I know there's people who wanna flex some "in the digital age the craft belongs to everyone and is no longer a craft it's ~a way of life~" or something but really that is nonsense - specifying that you want musicians who can really play means you want people who've sacrificed to learn their craft to now sacrifice for the betterment of yours. Having said all that, confidential to my singer buds, the check's in the mail lol

i'm definitely not saying that her behavior was responsible for his suicide! and i don't know the timing of when she used the recording of him in her music, but if it was after his death and he didn't consent to it being used, that's just completely callous and gross.

also who fakes a suicide and leaves a recording device on!!?? like "lol PUNK'D! gotcha!!"

I am obviously not expressing myself well.

I think that being a truly great artist requires in some senses a certain amount of sheer bloody-mindedness (for lack of a better term) that can read like being-an-asshole. And women get criticised a lot harder for sheer-bloody-mindedness in a way that men are not quite so penalised, because that sheer-bloody-mindedness violates the ~always be nice~ directive that women are supposed to live under.

It's not that ~great artists~ get a "get out of being an arsehole free" (though lord knows that card gets handed to male artists like e.g. John Lennon an awful lot.) I think it's more that halo effect whereby if you believe someone to be a genius, you are more likely to call that sheer-bloody-mindedness an "artistic temperament" instead of just "being an asshole."

If I believed more in Amanda Palmer's genius (which I don't, given the art of hers that I've heard) I would be willing to wade into the argument more. But at the moment, I'm kind of more with Cis. I'm actually glad that she exists, and that there is a space for her, and obviously she means an awful lot to many people.

But there are many, many artists who are seriously distasteful human beings (hello Anton Newcombe?) and yet they get judged on their art and the quality thereof, not on the things they've put their partners through in the name of art or something.

There's an unfortunate feedback loop here too; my objections to Amanda Palmer began when she crashed the stage at a cabaret show friends/castmates of mine were doing in support of our production of "The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny" and literally took over the stage from them, apparently to "sing the songs correctly" (quote may be misremembered), then ramped almost immediately up to 11 when I saw the Evelyn Evelyn stuff. Then I heard the music and didn't connect to it, but by that point it would have had to have been the most amazing music ever to surmount the barrier of ill will I'd already constructed towards her.

Her being an asshole probably wouldn't matter as much if her music was any good, but for me it's mediocre at best.

WCC otm, with a Christmas bonus for "the Courtney Love Clause".

jjj did play one Dresden Dolls song for me that I really liked but I have no idea what it was and no real desire to track it down

xp Is she "ableist" or just tactless, using a conceit in an abstract arty way without connecting it to real people in that situation? I'm wary of labelling someone a bigot based on one fairly strange situation. But I do think that when you're that visible on Twitter you get a lot of shit and probably get too defensive when it comes to valid criticism because you're used to fending off assholes. Personally I like her, I like her songwriting and I like the way she wrestles with her own exhibitionism but I don't give her a free pass.

Well the first I heard of her was back in Dresden Doll days, when she went to war with their label over them insisting that she lose some weight and reshoot a video because she had a (tiny) visible belly in one scene, and she basically mobilised her entire fanbase in this really inspiring and empowering (bleurgh hate that word) wave of body acceptance until they backed down, and shooting down the unrealistic expectations of womens' appearances in the music biz which just made me think YOU GO GIRL.

So I was predisposed to think that her intentions were in the right place, right up until the EvelynEvelyn thing - and it wasn't even doing the thing in the first place (which was a bit ick) but her reaction towards the criticisms, and basically using twitter to abuse the people with disabilities who had brought up the issue in the first place (who were actually fans!) which was just... um, you've changed.

Like, in the former case, the whole "Fuck you, this is my art" was totally and completely the sheer-bloody-minded right thing to do. And in the latter case, "Fuck you, this is my art" was, um, rong rong rong.

Like I said, it's complicated.

The idea of Dresden porcelain figurines is prob well known enough to have inspired their name without any Fall reference, even if their influences were adjacent.

https://www.collectorsweekly.com/figurines/dresden🕸

...hence Brechtian.

As a gesture of stubborn antiPalmerism I vow this henceforth: if anyone mentions Brecht in my hearing I am going to say "you mean like the shampoo?"

tbf there’s something that happened to Dresden that’s a lot more ingrained in american modern world history classes that happened between the Weimar era and now. a lot closer to the Weimar era, though. one of those names where a person hears “Dresden” and pauses for a moment while waiting for the explanation, oh, it’s about cabaret and the other thing

Yeah I think of Vonnegut aliens before I think of Liza Minelli wearing a bowler

We are talking about Amanda P who has a lengthy history of thinking in ways that we on ilx would not. Idk.

Brecht is one of the songwriters who changed my life, me getting on board with the Hal Willner tribute to Weill. Brecht’s concision in revealing the ironies that produce injustice honestly re-wired the way I think about society. The “dark cabaret” aesthetic, reducing it to kohl and fishnets and horniness …. I hate it, even if kohl and horniness remain quality things.

From the Dresden Dolls subreddit

throwaway for this

I went to high school with a big Panic at the Disco scenester and her parents bought a bunch of her friends tickets to see ‘em for her birthday. Panic’s opener that tour was Dresden Dolls (and maybe the Hush Sound?) I was sixteen and a fan of none of these bands, but I knew like Coin-Operated Boy and shit, and definitely thought Amanda Palmer was comparatively cooler than the headliner. I approached her in the downstairs area of the venue during the last set and we ended up making out, for a while, which I thought was funny and interesting at the time. She was super forward; I was flattered and down for whatever. I was unmistakably sixteen. I never really thought about it til this news broke. If you’ve ever been over the age of like 21, you know how much 16-year-olds look like children, and are obviously undesirable/not sexual peers/just not … that. (Ew, I just looked, and she was 30 at the time.) I hope my nonchalance about this matter as it affected me doesn’t seem normative. It’s not normal, it’s fucking gross, and I would never downplay anyone else’s experience. Still maybe worth recounting, since I sincerely doubt it was just me.

edit to add, as I reread this, I’m just thinking about how fucked up many of these bands that catered to audiences of teenagers and also wanted to live vicariously through their teenage audiences were — many of us have miserable memories of meeting our favorite bands at warped tour, or getting invited backstage for reasons we couldn’t quite comprehend, etc. I guess I remembered this encounter differently because it was a woman, and one I never bothered looking up to at that, but it’s infuriating that the story never changes.

I just got this post AP posted yesterday as a 'Suggested Follow' on FB:

A few months ago, I was falsely accused in a civil lawsuit and caught in a public firestorm surrounding my estranged ex, who I had separated from five years earlier.

It turned my world, my family and my entire career upside-down. I could not, and still cannot, speak about it due to my ongoing divorce.

But I am still a musician. That’s my job. A few weeks later, I booked a small show in NYC just to connect with my community. Some people complained to the venue, the board at the venue met and discussed, the show was canceled (a career first, for me, and a board member resigned), we moved to another venue, and on Saturday, I played that show.

It was sold out, and I was scared. I imagine you can understand why.

I can say it honestly, after 25 years of professional stage performing: I have never felt the way I felt on that stage, on Saturday night, at City Winery NYC.

I’ve never felt such a combination of joy and rage and glee and presence and most of all: such a honest and deep gratitude for a crowd.

Having so many NYC guests/friends on stage made a difference. Their talents and humor glued the room together to make the perfect container for my new and vulnerable songs, which physically hurt to sing. They’re like breathing out fire. I noticed that when I played one of the new tunes (working title: “The Running Joke”), my jaw trembled. Why? Fear? Anger? I am here for whatever these new songs have to teach me.

It felt like the old days. The basics. Community. The patrons. People came from Arizona, from California, from the UK, from…Peru?

The support and love from the audience, crew, the venue staff. Everyone held us. It felt like family.

To all who came: thank you. To everyone who performed, to the crew, and especially to Shlomo, Michael Dorf and everyone else at City Winery for graciously hosting us: also, truly, there are not enough thanks.

Please give it up for my special guests: John Teo Coons, Matta Aument, Amelia from Sir Echo, Lance Horne, Yael Raslooy….

And huge thanks to the crew: incredible photographers Hayley Rosenblum Photography (who took this shot), Melissa Smith and Allan Amato, Alina Simone who took footage, Dave Hughes on sound, Michael McComiskey, Elizabeth Perrotti & Hampton Howerton in mgmt, Regina Harris on make-up & EJ on merch.

Art saves. Onwards.

🎹♥️

Ask all the victims how they feel about "art saves", you absolute psychopath.

Onwards into the ocean with you, please.

from...Peru?

definitely a room full of 'The basics.'

City whinery

imagine being in a room full of Amanda Palmer fans in 2025

No Exit Pt. 2

You know it smell crazy in there

Did she pay anybody in the band that night?

with hugs and beer. not necessarily in that order, though.

i know its capt obvious to say this but the level of narcissism really just beggars belief

oh YOU have really GONE THROUGH something mmm yes please tell us about how YOU are dealing w YOUR PAIN through yr art

how about just be silent and stop filling a deliberately held, respectful void, with yr absolute bullshit like ENOUGH jfc

fucking vampire

her jaw TREMBLED

It felt like the old days, back to basics - just her, a photographer, three videographers, a makeup artist, and three managers in a room, making music

my favorite part of this is where she was canceled ――― *literally*

and yet

i'm not trying to start anything because i'm literally over a thousand miles away, but maybe people who put on her shows should start thinking twice. i've already google review bombed the venue. they put on a lot of live music from the look of it, but they obviously care fuck all about the musicians they "employ."

also you're wrong, vg. vampire implies some sort of intellect or cunning. the proper term for a group of roaches is "an intrusion" and i don't ever recall inviting that woman into anywhere.

I looked up the bio of a random person in that list of call-outs — surely some of these people were like “please don’t
mention me, it was just a job” and they were someone 100% on board with the experience. I’m done

Art Saves - I can't shake the suspicion that art might've saved on paying some of those people via the call-out.

my new and vulnerable songs, which physically hurt to sing

Yeah, that's - wow imagine physically hurting?

she's suffered for her music, now it's our turn

i'm not trying to start anything because i'm literally ... already google review bombed the venue ..."

lol. sorry. i support!

I just got this post AP posted yesterday as a 'Suggested Follow' on FB:

i did too, and left a nasty comment, "why am I seeing the BS on my fb feed"?

every other comment I read was fawning

fuck Paddington for going to this

wait are you talking about Ben Whishaw?

I assume the actual bear

Rupert Bear would never

I can see the rant now: "The struggle is real, and I felt it when a bear just kept looking at me and looking at me. Would I survive? Would my art be heard?"

I see that one of the people who appeared at her show is an Israeli artist who confronts sexual trauma through puppetry. Seems like backing up AP is a bit in bad taste.

who confronts what with what

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7QXk-xbRgSg/sddefault.jpg

on the one hand the clowning only feeds her, on the other hand suckers are still fawning over her so the clowning must continue, conundrum of our times

an Israeli artist who confronts sexual trauma through puppetry.

BERT+ERNIE KICK AMANDA PALMER'S ARSE OUTSIDE MANHATTAN DIVE BAR

/\so disappointed this wasn’t the real headline/\

Is this like puppetry of the penis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi0CuXirIlQ

Amanda Palmer alert! This is eerily apropos not just pun-wise, as this is how I imagine an Amanda Palmer-featuring evening going:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp4EJYdBF1Y

Brett Goldstein is possibly worse than AP

(Gelman)