Big Boi - Sir Lucious Left Foot: The Son of Chico Dusty (2010)

thirstin's skilligans island was one of the best albums of that era btw.

i really want to start a thread about "black-tracking" which is my theory that white rock critics love to REALLY BACK african-americans who makes remotely avant-garde music for the maybe span of like two years and then deem it "LOL SO CORNY" by the end of the decade. It's happened as long as I've been listening to music and it's super-racist and really fucking sucks

Tracy Chapman - P&J #3, 1988
Terrance Trent D'Arby - P&J #25, 1989
PM Dawn - P&J #5, 1991
Arrested Development - P&J #1, 1992; P&J #12, 1993
Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy - P&J #19, 1992

I don't feel like looking up the rest, but same shit happened to Tricky, Rawkus, Def Jux, etc.

Oh, and grime

Wyclef Jean: Wyclef Jean Presents the Carnival Featuring Refugee All-Stars

^^^ this finished at No. 16 in 1997

terrance trent's "weird" albums aren't that weird and are really good actually.

I am never ashamed of liking backpacker stuff!

actually just downloaded The Appetizer a free EP by Punchline and Fokis, pretty awesome, came out last year i think....

Can't you apply that hindsight to lots of music that critics turned around went lol wtf was i thinking, no matter what race/genre is involved?

I think Whiney is OTM re: critical reaction to this stuff but for the record...

Tracy Chapman - P&J #3, 1988
Terrance Trent D'Arby - P&J #25, 1989
PM Dawn - P&J #5, 1991
Arrested Development - P&J #1, 1992; P&J #12, 1993
Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy - P&J #19, 1992

I don't feel like looking up the rest, but same shit happened to Tricky, Rawkus, Def Jux, etc.

... I hated all this crap when they came out.

except for Tricky, that first album is really good

it's just reactionary, I think. White critics priveleging stuff for what it's not (ie mainstream black culture which is too "scary"/alien for them)

also - the pattern of only liking black music for being 'avant garde' or 'state of the art' and not being interested in much else about it.

Tracy Chapman - P&J #3, 1988
Terrance Trent D'Arby - P&J #25, 1989
PM Dawn - P&J #5, 1991
Arrested Development - P&J #1, 1992; P&J #12, 1993
Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy - P&J #19, 1992

were these guys really avant garde though? michael franti? pm dawn?! i think they were liked for other reasons (being musical/conscious rappers etc)

(pm dawns second album had some great stuff on it btw)

it's just reactionary, I think. White critics priveleging stuff for what it's not (ie mainstream black culture which is too "scary"/alien for them)

um, being reactionary doesn't make it any less racist, particularly when it always follows the pattern of "wow this is neat, black people don't do this! I love it!" ----> "ugh this is corny, why don't they do what black people do?"

xp: PM Dawn and Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy were pretty avant-garde given what was going on around them when they both hit the scene, particularly DHOH and their appropriation of industrial music.

lol yeah - wasn't to implying it isn't racist!

I can't tyupe todaye

i really want to start a thread about "black-tracking" which is my theory that white rock critics love to REALLY BACK african-americans who makes remotely avant-garde music for the maybe span of like two years and then deem it "LOL SO CORNY" by the end of the decade. It's happened as long as I've been listening to music and it's super-racist and really fucking sucks

Tracy Chapman - P&J #3, 1988
Terrance Trent D'Arby - P&J #25, 1989
PM Dawn - P&J #5, 1991
Arrested Development - P&J #1, 1992; P&J #12, 1993
Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy - P&J #19, 1992

I don't feel like looking up the rest, but same shit happened to Tricky, Rawkus, Def Jux, etc.

― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, July 9, 2010 8:55 AM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark

since it's on radar, add the love below. maybe not "avante-garde", but boundary pushing in a way that's similar to tracy chapman, TTD'arby. loved by many critics upon release, looked at askance a few years down the road.

laughable how critics (eg the guardian) talk about the way you move being as good a single as hey ya really.

race plays into this, but there's also a tendency among certain fans & critics (myself included) to gravitate to the weird & experimental in pop at the time of its release ... but then to retrospectively devalue it in favor of that which proves durable/universal over time. this tendency overrates novelty in the short run, overrates traditionalism in the long.

got any non-black examples

beck?

Well PM Dawn really started sucking, so that may be why critics distanced themselves.

Beck's best work seems to still be held in high regard, no...? Odelay, Minite Vultures, One Foot in the Grave, for example. That recent Beck poll got a LOT of votes

I was gonna say, Beck still gets plenty of crit love in certain circles.

Yeah dude, I think Odelay is looked on with way more regard than Of the Heart, of the Soul and of the Cross: The Utopian Experience

I don't know a single critic or rap fan who liked soundbombing when it dropped and doesn't now. I think whiney is full of it. Y'all forget that the gangsta populist rap is cool now crew was made up of new jacks who didn't get into rap until they were in their mid 20s

Also pm dawn and michael franti always sucked? Tracy chapman was always p lame? This theory needs work.

PM Dawn is awesome

i dunno, i think beck is a good example. odelay seems to be held in much lower regard now than it once was. i seem to remember it being heralded as some kind of epochal event on release. seen now as a good/fun nostalgia piece, like "shit, remember the 90s?"

back when there used to be electroclash, novelty appeal led critics to foam about all kinds of stuff that they turned their backs on in a heartbeat. peaches, anyone?

(love u peaches btw}

By yr theory why has kool keith maintained his critical respect? Why are outkast getting praise to the point where big boi's solid but not exact?y mindblowing solo record is a bnm ??

Dude, Pitchfork just called Beck one of the 100 best albums of the decade, i think that's critics holding him in higher than Michael Franti

Cool, deej, be sure to the same annoying logic games you play with our Gucci argument. "Whiney said X happens a lot, so he must mean X must happen EXCLUSIVELY"

Yeah contenderizer's got a good pt here actually _ I don't think u can speak so broadly about why some acts keep critical respect and some lose it. I'll be the first to say race enters into how critics receive everything but this theory has too many exceptions to make a rule.

what's the critical consensus on Basehead now?

Dog your theory has more holes than swiss cheese don't act like that's more about vendettas than normal criticism

I know MIA's not black, but every critic rushing to call her a retard all of a sudden probably fits into this too somehow.

uh she is a retard

racist

i know :-(

wtf is going on with your display name?!

The one generalization I think u can make here is that critics are just as bad/worse than the general public at jumping on every single trend when its new and shiney and are as quick to drop it when they realize it might make them look stupid. Lots and lots of bandwagon jumping

critical respect for kool keith seems stuck in some weird divide where the artist is respected, but there's some hesitancy about the crowd he appeals to. which isn't the same as a retraction of praise, but it's guarded, somehow. outkast are a perfect example of short-lived novelty appeal, cuz big boi's last couple recs are much more rap-traditional than TLB. a lot of people went nuts for TLB in the moment, then stepped back, while big boi's rep has steadily improved.

and maybe i'm wrong about odelay. rarely see beck mentioned as a touchstone in describing interesting contemporary music, but do hear a lot of "lol beck" chatter. random talk probably isn't the best measure of critical respect though.

xxpost

I got 20/1 odds that it's kenan-related

Y'all forget that the gangsta populist rap is cool now crew was made up of new jacks who didn't get into rap until they were in their mid 20s

fwiw I was listening to NWA in 10th grade. so, y'know, I assume you ain't talking to me

Someone dig up that Spin top 200 albums of the last 25 years list and count how many times Beck is on it

The one generalization I think u can make here is that critics are just as bad/worse than the general public at jumping on every single trend when its new and shiney and are as quick to drop it when they realize it might make them look stupid. Lots and lots of bandwagon jumping

― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, July 9, 2010 1:47 PM (1 minute ago)

http://i46.tinypic.com/14udeeh.jpg

Rap traditionalism is totally what's hot w critics right now tho - wow this sounds jusy like ugk!! - another prob w the avant garde theory

critics are just as bad/worse than the general public at jumping on every single trend when its new and shiney and are as quick to drop it when they realize it might make them look stupid.

― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, July 9, 2010 10:47 AM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark

this x1000. it's not necessarily that cynical, though. if you're sincerely interested both in music and the evolution of pop culture, you're necessarily gonna be drawn to what seems novel in the moment. that it takes you some time to fully process it isn't really a fault.

what's the critical consensus on Basehead now?

they were ALWAYS slept on iirc but those first two albums are back-to-back classics. much love from me.

Rap traditionalism is totally what's hot w critics right now tho - wow this sounds jusy like ugk!! - another prob w the avant garde theory

― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, July 9, 2010 10:49 AM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark

YES. totally. but that can be seen as a larger-scale version of the process - applied to a genre, not just to the artists in that genre. critics first approach the genre in terms of what "rises above" it, and only in time come to embrace it on its own, self-defined terms.

this goes back to my main problem with Altered Zones is that good music should transcend the news peg of trendiness. Bands like Oneida and The Oh Sees who just make good album after good album deserve more shine than Memory Tapes