What's up with hating on the Doors?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (252 of them)

So Mark is that it? - you would prefer it if there were two different words rather than the vague catch-all. Another thing - people have difficulty with comprehending that something can sound very similar to something else without there being any connection. No confusion about a '60s library track sounding like orchestral drum & bass because it was created *30 years earlier*. But if two things exist in the same time it is often assumed that artist A must have listened to artist B then imitated (consciously or unconsciously). In fact both could come to similar conclusions through having the same perspectives and conceptual frameworks (and tools of course) because they're humans existing at the same time and in the same culture. But if artist A is more well-known/critically acclaimed, artist B will be assumed to have been 'influenced'.

― David, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

pretty much, david

― mark s, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think it is possible to be influenced in matters of process and method. Of course, this has no bearing whatever on the final product, but if somebody uses fortune-cookies or the I Ching in the studio because they got the idea from Eno or insist on playing gtr with a violin bow just because Jimmy Page did it then it's up to the artist to admit it or not. Then again artists always lie about (or can't remember) their micro-processes thus would-be emulators usually are chasing a mirage. I think Mark S is possibly a bit idealistic - years and years of 'active listening' perhaps blinds one to precisely how lazy, derivative and willing to copy stuff wholesale most artists are - which of course points to another nail in the coffin of 'influence' - most bands are so desperate to get noticed that anytime somebody hangs an 'influence' on them they hold on to the reference for dear life and proudly trumpet it to all and sundry (e.g., A&R guy - "You guys sound a bit like Korn" [thinks nervously "That's the one the kids are into now right?"] 15-yr-old gtrist hears "You are going to be as big as Korn!" So maybe next time they're in rehearsal they downtune the guitars and the singer's subsequent performances are subconsciously tinged with this promise of being the next poster-child for bedroom-poster poster children, and next time you see them, they sound an awful lot like Korn, but of course now they claim to have "listened to them back in the day before they got all famous. Gee whillikers, WE BOTH GREW UP ON THE SAME RHCP AND FAITH NO MORE RECORDS!") Of course this type of thing has nothing to do with 'influence' as it is used in crit discourse but then what is it? (Believe it or not, I'm still overrating the analytical skills and intellectual powers of most musicians - if you ask the entertainment at your local dive "Why do you use a Fender Jaguar" they'll usually say "Dunno, Kurt Cobain had one so it's good enough for me", and whether or not that counts as 'influence', it definitely alters the sound and look and thus whole package - if the guitarist knows this then they're being contrived and if they don't then they're just stupid. But are the UNDER THE 'I' WORD?

― dave q, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dave q is right, but there's also sometimes less than that at work: when I started writing pop songs for myself, I just had a guitar and my voice, and yet you could hear shades of The Church and The Cure in what I was doing despite no intention at all to do so. Those two bands quite clearly had an influence on the way I composed my own music--or, if you want to be more precise about it, the band's songs themselves did. Did I imitate them? No, because it wasn't quite so clear cut, it didn't really sound like either in any great way. I think this idea that you have, mark, that "influence" means that Robert Smith has to come put me into a headlock and force me to right that way is ignoring one of the definitions of the word "influence". I don't think it's obfuscation at all. I think the word is often used lazily, though.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

grrr i (a) just recovered from flu and (b) discovered magical elves corrupted my hard drive so i am even more hostile to "influenza" at the moment: haha two x re-initialisation in six weeks, if it's not voodoo i don't know what it is

― mark s, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sean and mark FITE!

― Julio Desouza, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the elves are no more but i am not allowed to use OPERA for a while

― mark s, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

mark is still my hero despite this disagreement, so there will be no FITE here, my friend.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hold on, I just realised that the second half of what I last wrote is stupid. (Of COURSE they're 'under the I word' - but that's like saying 'they play instruments' right?)

― dave q, Thursday, 11 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Jim Morrison was a drunken, stoned buffoon. The Doors were the Limp Bizkit of the 60's. Pathetic, attention starved singers w/ no voice or talent backed by competent, but lazy, boring bands. Give me White Light/White Heat. Give me Raw Power. Anything, but the Doors.

― bobbie shlep, Monday, 22 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one year passes...

Reading the posting of a bunch of stupid idiots who willnot even be remembered by their own kids, it occured to me that every idiot is allowed to have an opinion. And it seems that a lot of idiots have internet access, which in and of itself is a tragedy of the 21st century. But anyway, people have different tastes. Some think that living on a yellow submarine is particularly clever while lucy in the sky with diamonds is in some way oh so amazing because it is a thinly veiled reference to LSD. OOOOOOHHH Im trembling before the wit of the Beatles. Say whatever you want about the Doors, in the end, it is them who had the essence of Rock. They were the rebels. The Beatles were a suburban band all the way. That alone makes the Doors more important to Rock than the Beatles. The Beatles? Suburban rock and nothing more. They did have some catchy jingles though, then again, so to some TV commercials. But keep on thinking the Beatles were gods because the magazines and TV tell you so.

― Ralph Johnson, Saturday, 12 June 2004 05:36 (twenty-two years ago)

At some point, the Doors became the least-annoying classic-rock band for me, by virtue of being the least-overplayed.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Saturday, 12 June 2004 06:08 (twenty-two years ago)

who willnot even be remembered by their own kids

I have kids?

Actually a pretty incredible thread, this, tons of good discussions and anecdotes both.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 June 2004 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

"the essence of rock", my ass.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, damn, I picked up nearly all their albums in HMV sale a coupla years ago in those neat mini 12" replica CD sleeves, and I was dead thrilled and all that, but when I got them home, the utter mediocrity of their back catalog became glaringly apparent. Plus, isn't jimbo a bit bloody pathetic really? I mean, his lyrics were actually pretty poor for the most part, and in the cold glare of ACTUALLY LISTENING TO THE REKKIDS, he was a bit MOR, apart from the cock waving and alcoholism etc. You shd listen to Spirit or Love FFS!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

they were just a shitty lounge band pretending to be serious and rock.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

not much new to add: once you get past all the lizard king shite they're a good band with a k3wl sounding shitty old organ.

― fcussen (Burger), Saturday, 12 June 2004 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Riders on the Storm, I decided, was their one and only good song.

― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 12 June 2004 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Riders on the Storm, I decided, was their one and only good song.

Don't worry, you'll grow out of that soon.

― Vic Funk, Saturday, 12 June 2004 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

In that I'll realize that even that one isnt good? Or that I'll think the other ones are good for some reason?

― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 12 June 2004 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

you got it right the first time.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 12 June 2004 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

door hata's=radiohead fanatics maybe?

as a recovering "Door-o-phile", the only things one can say about them in defense is that for a while, they were by themselves. no one quite sounded like that (or since, thankfully) or took thier own press as seriously. beatles perhaps, but, i roundly dismiss the beatles, being that SOMEONE would've done exactly what they did, had they not.probably the stones, but, even they would've done it better.

i guess you have to look at where music was at the time, ie-1967. i still think the first 2 doors albums are total classics! a few mis-steps, but, still very listenable and recorded within 6 months. only CCR can step like that. cream, almost.

musically, the doors were solid, but, didn't liquify into murky jams too often. there's a zeal to it all, too. a youthfully naive sound, like someone who has yet to fail. which they managed to do soon after.
lyrically, i now cringe, but as a fella coming from metal into what i considered dismissable music (classic rawk) i was taken back by the lyrics. i can't say morrison was a god, or even that great lyrically, but he did (as was stated) hit some damn fine points in there. even if they're few and far between, they ARE worth it.

i guess the arguments against them far outweigh the fors'. because time and history have shown us the truth about the people involved and the mythology that still surrounds them, it IS harder to enjoy them as i get older. i still go back, but, it doesn't hold the mystery it once did. i'll be the first to admit, lsd did help, but ultimately i find i go back to the 1st+last albums the most.

the quicklist ranks=
1- s/t or la woman
2- strange days
3- morrison hotel
4- waiting for the sun
5- soft parade

runner up to albums is the live double disc, which has THE best version of "who do you love" evah!!!

― eedd, Sunday, 13 June 2004 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

more importantly, what's up with the phrase "hating on something"... surely it is grammatically incorrect? you hate something, you don't hate on something.

― gem (trisk), Sunday, 13 June 2004 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Gem, language is fluid, not static. The phrase "hate on" is a recent development, but a very useful one. Try it out for a few weeks just in your daily internal monologue and I think you'll find it has a subtlety to it that "hate" all by itself lacks. I can "hate on" small thing that I don't actually-permanently-dismissively hate: to "hate on," it seems to me, is to express displeasure without claiming any permanence for the feeling. I might hate on an apple pie you brought me just now if I were not in the mood for apple pie. It would be rash & untrue to say that I hate apple pie, though. I like it fine. I just don't want one right now, hence why I hated on your apple pie. Sorry about that brah.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 13 June 2004 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

Who sing the song "dont rock the juke box" is it The doors?

― peyton, Thursday, 22 July 2004 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

No, apparently it's Alan Jackson.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 23 July 2004 07:33 (twenty-one years ago)

For f-cks sake get your book finshed Mark S! More threds like this please.

― Dr .C, Friday, 23 July 2004 08:03 (twenty-one years ago)

seven months pass...

Darnielle's arguments aside, 'hating on' is somewhat embarassing, I think, precisely because of that air of lazy frat lingo. I'm kinda bummed I used it. But I heard "Back Door Man" the other day on a jukebox, which made me think back to this thread. It was fun re-reading.

― Dare, Thursday, 17 March 2005 05:15 (twenty-one years ago)

'hating on' comes from black american slang, and it's more or less as John described but also implies the tint of jealousy(or sour grapes, more accurately, as it pertains to something inanimate like apple pie and yes it's meant to be slightly absurd turn of phrase in that case). It's wrapped up etymologically with "playa-hating" if that helps.

― tremendoid (tremendoid), Thursday, 17 March 2005 05:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha that Darnielle post is fantastic.

― deej., Thursday, 17 March 2005 05:42 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

John Harris still hatin' on the Doors in the Guardian:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,1949235,00.html

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Sunday, 19 November 2006 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

This thread is great for its tangential arguments on Echo and the Cure, and Darnielle's defense of "Hatin' On".

I gave The Doors a big chance in high school, when a few of my close friends were really into them. Unfortunately, someone recommended that I buy American Prayer first. That really put the focus on Morrison's retodded poetry, and then said friends kept raving about the whole Lizard King thing, and then I just stopped trying with The Doors. Also, I can't stand Ray Manzarak's style.

― Zachary Scott (Zach S), Sunday, 19 November 2006 20:10 (nineteen years ago)

LOTS of new Doors live stuff on their Bright Midnight label available now on iTunes.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 19 November 2006 20:28 (nineteen years ago)

And there is another point. No matter how spoiled, vengeful or self-indulgent any supposedly titanic talent may be, the true geniuses - Lennon, Dylan, Tom from Kasabian - always exhibit some thread of empathetic humanity

― pscott (elwisty), Sunday, 19 November 2006 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

hahahahaha

― M@tt He1geson: Sassy and I Don't Care Who Knows It (Matt Helgeson), Sunday, 19 November 2006 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

ACTUALLY LISTENING TO THE REKKIDS, he was a bit MOR

Norman's pretty much otm here, but his lounge crooner schtick is why I like them.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Sunday, 19 November 2006 20:50 (nineteen years ago)

The thing that struck me about the Harris article is that he seems to think he's being iconoclastic: actually, I reckon the Doors' stock with critics and writers really couldn't sink any lower right now. Spewing bile on them is about as controversial as raving about 'Pet Sounds'.

― Soukesian (Soukesian), Sunday, 19 November 2006 23:27 (nineteen years ago)

Simon Reynolds give the new box set five stars in Blender.

― Mark (MarkR), Sunday, 19 November 2006 23:59 (nineteen years ago)

yeah but he has always been a massive Doors fan (to his credit.)

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Monday, 20 November 2006 03:36 (nineteen years ago)

i like "Waiting For The Sun" and "People Are Strange". Their songs aren't that bad FFs.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:08 (nineteen years ago)

Some of their songs are reasonable. It's Jim bloody Morrison who's the main problem.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:14 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, they'd be a good band if not for Jim Morrison's awful lyrics and those organ solos that go on for half a day.

― chap who would dare to welcome our new stingray masters (chap), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:16 (nineteen years ago)

Exactly. They'd be almost as good as the Seeds!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:18 (nineteen years ago)

I've had "C'mon c'mon c'mon now TOUCH me babe" in my head for what must be two weeks now. It's insidious!

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:37 (nineteen years ago)

"Touch Me" is a good song too. They're always remembered fro really annoying dirges like "Light My Fire" and "This Is The End".

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:39 (nineteen years ago)

http://adorocinema.cidadeinternet.com.br/personalidades/atores/michael-caine/michael-caine01.jpg

I thought I told you to turn the bloody Doors off.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

the production is really key for me. those records sound so amazing.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

why am i even defending the Doors? The only thing I own is a taped copy of LA Woman which I have listened to once and made me fall asleep.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:46 (nineteen years ago)

i think i did all my doors defending on another thread. some vu-vs-doors thread or something.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:50 (nineteen years ago)

lounge crooner schtick

yes, i think i neither like nor dislike the doors, but i kind of like this element

john harris' pieces are all kind of the same. "that zappa eh, he was a bit rubbish", um, you're going to make a whole article out of that? ok, if you like

as said above, the doors are an odd target in their stock isnt exactly high these days

Exactly. They'd be almost as good as the Seeds!

weirdly, the seeds stock isnt that high either, and they're like the best band in the world!

― -- (688), Monday, 20 November 2006 13:57 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 152 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.