― James Cowher, Friday, 2 June 2006 12:29 (eighteen years ago) link
My actual point here is if you like Jimi more, than that is fine. People who try to undermine Eddie's accomplishments in the process of praising Jimi are uninformed or foolish. Had Jimi lved longer, who knows what he may have done. The point is not would have or could have been done, but actually what has been accomplished by Eddie. If Jimi was so innovative and amazing, he would have came up with double hand tapping and artificial harmonics. He would have invented the Floyd Rose or Drop-D Tuna. He would have been the 19th best selling artist of all time. The point is, none of this happened. eddie came up with someting that no one was doing beofre him and everyone did after him. That is innovation and influence. If anything, I hope you like Hendrix but you learned and respected a lot more about Eddie.
― Roy Cox, Friday, 2 June 2006 12:41 (eighteen years ago) link
Music simply cannot be judged like a sport, and thank the stars for that. As paraphrased above, Eddie himself said something along the lines of:
"Guitar playing is not a sport and it is not competition. There is no best. You like what you like and you play how you feel."
So I find it unbelievably ironic that you are bound and determined to dig your heels in behind this imaginary line that your own guitar-god-hero dismisses. If technical speed was the main determination to establish the intangible "best" in music, then I shudder to think about what today's music would be like.
Music is about pleasure, so to stretch the analogy, if you ask any woman if she prefers a speedy lover over one who takes his time and gives emphasis to certain "notes and rhythms", I'm willing to bet the farm that well over 90% would choose the latter. That's exactly how I feel about music.
Now if you have a wife or girlfriend, do this for me: Play Eruption, then play Little Wing. Then ask her which one gets her more in the mood. And if you honestly don't think that evoking emotional or even sexual responses out of song is a valid indication of the power of music, then there really is no further point in having any kind of discourse with you.
Your "evidence" really only supports that EVH is a better shredder and speed technician, and that is a very small percentage of both guitar players and fans of music in general. And as I said before, even though I'm not a fan of shredding, I feel that Satriani is a much better example of a guitar virtuoso who can not only shred with the best, but also appears to be much more versatile, and in my opinion soulful.
As for all of the responses by guys claiming that you have "schooled us", that is high praise indeed from people who before you showed up were famous for saying ridiculous things like "Hendrix Sux!". I've already mentioned it, but it is clear that some things need to be said many times before they sink in. Roy's evidence, in my opinion, does in fact support and conclude that EVH is more of a technical genius than Hendrix was. But that's where it ends. Claims that one influenced more subsequent guitarists are far from empirical, and such a conclusion is near impossible to make based upon the sheer number of fantastic guitar players in the world, all of whom would be laughing their asses off at this polemic thread.
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 13:09 (eighteen years ago) link
― I am ready to kill myself and eat my dog (teenagequiet), Friday, 2 June 2006 13:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 13:15 (eighteen years ago) link
Well yeah, by 1 degree of separation: I play a guitar and so does he.
Let's count the other similarities:• My guitar has 6 strings... so does Eddie's!• I use an amp or some sort of module that translates the signal from my guitar to more interesting and audible sound... so does Eddy!• I use two hands: my left one is on the fretboard, my right hand hits the strings with a pick... so does Eddy (when he's not tapping the most boring shit ever)!• That reminds me: in addition to a guitar with strings and an amp, I also use a pick... so does Eddy!• I recently took apart a guitar and put it back together with new parts... I hear Eddy did shit like that with his Charvel neck and wax-dipped pickups. Wowee!• Sometimes I play drunk or stoned... so does Eddy!
― Uri Frendimein (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 2 June 2006 14:16 (eighteen years ago) link
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 2 June 2006 14:45 (eighteen years ago) link
And I could go on to take minor issues with a vast number of your points (first distortion - ever heard "Rocket 88"?! double hand tapping - you list all the people you initially listed in your first post. Repeating the same half dozen people does not make your point. THERE ARE OTHER GUITAR PLAYERS fyi). But why should I bother? In a sense that would just be validating your approach - that the quality of music and a musician can be broken down into scientifically verifiable little categories that can then be quantified and ranked on a checklist. I could list a million guitarists that you in all likelihood have never heard of and never will because they do not fall into any of these little categories of yours, and do not run in the same circles of shitty multiplatinum metal studio musician hacks. (Honestly go to the current "favorite guitar player" thread and tell me you even know who half of the people listed are...) But what would be the point? You probably would say it isn't "music" cuz they never sold a billion records or were on the cover of Guitar Player.
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 14:52 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:16 (eighteen years ago) link
My actual point here is if you like Jimi more, than that is fine. People who try to undermine Eddie's accomplishments in the process of praising Jimi are uninformed or foolish.
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Uri Frendimein (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:46 (eighteen years ago) link
― Uri Frendimein (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:56 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 15:58 (eighteen years ago) link
it's mostly from the Grateful Dead, just amped up w/guitar mag chops (and boring playing and w/o jerry's great voice.)
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:15 (eighteen years ago) link
― Uri Frendimein (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:29 (eighteen years ago) link
As for his assertion that Van Halen has had a greater influence, lest we forget, Satriani one of the virtuoso guitarists that Roy cites (as do I) began focusing on his amazing career when he heard that Hendrix died. My guess is that both Satriani and Eddie himself have called Hendrix one of their main influences. Vai also notes that his early influences included Hendrix and Page. Kirk Hammet is another respected speed metal guitarist who cites Hendrix as one of his major influences. These are just a few that I've bothered to Google, and each of them falls into the shredder model. If I attempted to start a list of lead guitarists who are more into the blues-rock than shredding, I'm certain I could come up with a list as long as the day is long.
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:32 (eighteen years ago) link
Malmsteen cites Hendrix as his inspiration too. It just seems to me that Roy was emphasizing EVH's accomplishments, and now you guys are gleefully attacking this guitar-center wanker strawman rather than replying to what he actually said.
I don't think it's arguable that EVH was a better technician than Hendrix. Beyond that it gets a lot more subjective. I've never been a huge fan of the music of either.
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:36 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:37 (eighteen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:41 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 16:50 (eighteen years ago) link
Influence: Eddie Van Halen again. When Jimi emerged, no one was trying to play like him, look like him, or capture his sound. When Eddie emerged EVERY guitar player tried to play like him
EVERY guitar player huh? Real empirical, and simply not true. In fact I'm certain that there are more guitar players in the world (professional or not) who would not claim EVH as an influence, and the same goes for Hendrix. You simply made an untrue statement.
Additionally, I've already stated that most of the people Roy cites as having been influenced by EVH have also named Hendrix, some going so far as to say the latter was their main influence. So much for that point.
Innovation: Eddie Van Halen... Artificial harmonics, volume swells, whammy screams, even the name "whammy" were all from Eddie. If you throw in the creation of the drop-d tuna, the inspiration for the Floyd Rose patent, and his line of hand-made guitars with the only tone nicknamed in the music industry ( "Brown Sound") this debate was never a debate to begin with.
Eddie perfected hand-tapping. Jimi (in many people's opinions) basically introduced the concept of the lead guitar player as we now now it. Which one is more significant to you?
OK, so EVH made innovations in gear. What the hell does that have to do with his skill as a guitar player. One of the first and biggest changes in the electric guitar industry was the Fender Broadcaster/Telecaster and later Stratocaster, and, correct me if I'm wrong, Leo Fender did not play guitar. Furthermore, many of the skilled guitar players that I know are of the opinion that wammy bars and other gear are bells and whistles that a truly skilled practitioner doesn't need. Please don't take that statement as me trying to say that EVH or anyone that does use these things are not great; I'm simply telling you what I've been told by a good number of skilled guitar players.
As for technical skill, I've already given my opinion that I concede this point, and agree that EVH has technical skills that Jimi didn't reach in his short life. But here's another analogy for ya.. I've been involved in judo for more than half of my 39 years, and I've seen many a perfectionist technician get his ass handed to him in a tournament or in the street by guys with less skills. Similarly I've seen tough, meathead streetfighters get manhandled by judoka with both technical skill and fighting spirit. Again, I feel that it takes a combination of technical skills on the guitar AND musical spirit to make it as one of my favourites.
Any questions?
Yes, why do you feel the need to be so condescending?
There really are no other salient points made in his first post than those I've covered, so I really fail to see how anyone saw Roy's post as so conclusive.
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 17:16 (eighteen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Friday, 2 June 2006 17:19 (eighteen years ago) link
― Chris Bee (Cee Bee), Friday, 2 June 2006 17:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link
Here are some of the fallacies I see in Roy's post, and what I see as support for each of my claims:
Appeal to Authority: As a guitar historian and a veteran player myself... 'nuff said
The Horse Laugh/Ridicule: Especially when you were booed opening up for The Monkees. If the musical opinion of the fanbase of the first boy-band in history is an indication of Jimi's lack of skill, we're all in real trouble. This is a great one since it's also a Begging the Question because we don't know how Eddie would have been met by the same crowd, and a False Dillema fallacy, since it seems to state that Jimi couldn't have been very good because that group of people booed him.
Testability: When Eddie emerged EVERY guitar player tried to play like him. Show me what metric or test was used to draw this conclusion.
I could go on, but this is a drastic departure from the thread topic. :)
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 17:53 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 17:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:01 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:05 (eighteen years ago) link
― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:18 (eighteen years ago) link
Anyway, I won't bother engaging you guys as I don't particularly care about this subject. It's just annoying to read poor arguments. And yes, "he got booed opening for the Monkees" is a very stupid argument.
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:21 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― Uri Frendimein (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:41 (eighteen years ago) link
Roy's entire argument hinges on his alleged greater experience and knowledge than the rest of us. He believes that since he is a "veteran guitar player and historian" that his points are conclusive. Since I feel many of us have been successful at underminging most of his points, I think it is fair to say that his appeal to his own authority made him feel that his subsequent fallacious arguments could not be challenged by a bunch on non-guitar-playing fanboys.
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 18:56 (eighteen years ago) link
No it doesn't. He didn't say "I'm a veteran guitarist and I think Eddie is better, therefore he is." He said "I'm a veteran guitar player. I think Eddie is better. Here's why," and then he went on to make arguments about influence, innovation, technical ability, and accolades. If you disagree with him on those points, then make that argument. It's not an appeal to authority fallacy.
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 19:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 19:03 (eighteen years ago) link
Since I believe his subsequent arguments to be fallacious, they all fall back on his original information that he has placed himself on a higher platform than the rest of us. How many veteran guitar players are there on this board, and how many of them feel the need to cite that as corrobaration for their opinions?
Also, as I said, if any of his premises were valid, his self-professed skill-level would not be necessary to add weight to his conclusions.
― shorty (shorty), Friday, 2 June 2006 19:07 (eighteen years ago) link
― Steve Goldberg (Steve Goldberg), Friday, 2 June 2006 19:08 (eighteen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Friday, 2 June 2006 19:09 (eighteen years ago) link