Indie Guilt: C/D

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God, curse the fucking posting pile-up on this thread!

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nitsuh you need an editor ethan did that way quicker!

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

http://www.toonopedia.com/casper.jpg

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

haha sterl is too l33+ to use haXoR korrektly

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

jess, graham looks miserable there!!

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

b-but I'm not 133+, I thought was the point... or... (sob).

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

it's back to mille plateaux with you!

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The friendly dead kid.

― bnw, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"i wonder if casper is the ghost of richie rich."
"hey, yeah...i wonder how he died!"
"maybe he realized the fruitlessness of the search for money, and took his own life."
"kids, you're kind of creeping me out."

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, and here's a thought experiment to answer the actual question. If we adopt Tom's personal preference (i.e., "listening to different genres" = "good") and look at all of the musical genres that have semi-definable "communities" attached to them (indie, hip-hop, metal, various dance, etc.), we find that the "indie community" is the one that feels the most compulsion to look outside of its own box. (Followed closely by "various dance," but there half of the impulse to look outside of the box is for the purpose of cannibalizing whatever's found there.)

I'm less making that argument than I am suggesting it. Other thing to consider: the other half of indie-bashing on ILM revolves around criticizing indie kids for being head-up-ass insular. Note the twin pincers, both of which get adopted by the indie-friendly and the indie-bashing and used as appropriate: (a) you suck for only listening to indie, and (b) you suck for making conspicuous efforts to listen to things other than indie. Isn't "indie guilt" in the question as posed here just a way of saying either (a) you suck for both of those or (b) you suck for caring about the question at all?

The issue's been gone over enough times on ILM that I don't fault anyone for not wanting to put a ton of energy into it again. A lot of it is "political" anyway, a tool for those who want to chip away at the stranglehold indie-centric discourse has had over music discourse for the last decade (especially online). And a lot of it is a way of slapping back at whatever perceived "indie community" wasn't giving enough credit to, say, pop fans during that period. And a lot of it is just sides-switching, now that indie's having something of a bad patch and danceable radio-friendly pop is having such a good one. All of which combines to make it basically irrelevant. YES indie is a bit of a whipping-boy around here. It still gets talked about constantly and seriously, and the barbs thrown its way aren't any worse than the barbs a lot of indie kids still reflexively throw at anything in the top 40. Fine. Good. Listen to things, talk about things, and quit being so hypercritical of everyone's motives for listening to or talking about the things they do.

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

And also obviously don't ask question that make silly assumptions about what people wear or what they listen to in their closets or why they like Missy. Even in jest, it's just irritating.

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh nitsuh I'm sorry about making fun of your stereolab album

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

hug?

― Josh, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Josh: there I need not fear shame when those delicate glitch-structions do not move my stony ass with their beats.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nitsuh the indie community only 'looks outside its own box' for other token genre artists who sound like indie!!

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

So what's indie, then?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

indie = wu tang and evelyn king and THAT'S IT!!

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Funniest thread evah! The only non-reflexive (and thus no guilt trip) and insular genre is Heavy Metal because it doesn't rate knowledge very highly. And the latter is of course mainly a male trait.

― cuba libre (nathalie), Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

coaassssting

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

bah my hair metal joke was the funniest of the entiy-ah thread and no one even noticed it => like binaries you are all beneath me

― mark "the s is for sweeps out grandly" s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

just coast on out mark

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Hair Metal doesn't count= ~~indie~~ Pop

― cuba libre (nathalie), Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

INDIE GUILT

http://www.ludd.luth.se/ ~kavli/Thunderbirds/TracyFamily.jpg

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

blimey lady p owns some ugly-ass art

anthony to thread!!

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

is tin-tin doing dad tracy?

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

seeing as giveaway body language is the secret subject of this whole thread

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

thats you in the middle

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

keep up ethan

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nitsuh the indie community only 'looks outside its own box' for other token genre artists who sound like indie

That doesn't matter. In fact it doesn't even matter whether they actually look or not. The point is that a certain percentage of indie fans at least mentally recognize that their other-genre listening doesn't live up to their ideals of being critically open- minded and musically omnivorous. The thought experiment was that by Tom's standards, that should be a step better than just ignoring everything else.

And once again what the hell is wrong with that? I mean, why wouldn't people who like indie like music from other genres that has affinities with indie? You can use the same thought- experiment to turn that back into a compliment, if you want to: you could argue that indie kids really are as open-minded about genre as their rhetoric likes to think, insofar as they'll listen to anything, regardless of musical genre, so long as it offers them what they enjoy in the "emotional" or "philosophical" or really "cultural" senses.

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

When the fuck was Bobby Moore a Thunderbird?

Parker's saying to Lady Penelope "I'm better than you, because you like Helen Love"

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

1. I missed this whole damn thread because I was having like the shittiest day EVAH at work
2. Mark S is often right and often funny on this thread and elsewhere but ppl only convince themselves they "like" indie because they're so embarrassed abt the daft chartpop they genuinely loved as kids is transparently total and complete horseshit
3. if I misattributed that one I am sorry Mark S
4. the original question hath to it some pith: people say "indie" around here as though the word gave off a bad smell
4b. which reminds me Steve Malkmus is a way better songwriter than you-all gave him credit for on the Pavement thread a while back
4c. the observation that a lot of people in this hizzouse seem to think that not liking Destiny's Child is pretentious is spot-on
4d. when in fact Destiny's Child aren't even good pop
4e. honestly
5. the conclusion here is that only true kult black metal is any good although as we know great death metal is better still but there is a paucity of great death metal right now 6. Oh yes and the attempt to laughingly discredit the "homophobes=closeted homosexuals" is itself laughable as accepted canons of psychiatry (not kooky Freudian shit neither: well-reasoned valid things) bear out that most homophobia is rooted in suppressed homoerotic urges 7. BLACK METAL IST KRIEG 8. Please do pity me, the workday was truly abysmal

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Actually the more I think about it it is mind-boggling. People pick on indie fans for liking stuff from other genres that's similar to indie: what the hell is surprising about that? As if hip-hop fans listen to indie and go "I dunno, that was a sort of hip-hoppy beat he put in there, I hate this shit."

― nabisco%%, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like to solve my indie guilt by drinking copious amounts of Budweiser. This is a statement far more relevant than burning a copy of the last ~~Modest Mouse~~ Eminem CD which was released on a major label.

― cuba libre (nathalie), Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Look, can't all the indie kids and the b-boys and the popists and the rave bunnies all get together in the spirit of communal harmony, and just throw shit at fat girls with ironic backpacks?

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh nitsuh, i think constructing thought experiments to explore the transgression of "indie boundaries" might be a cry for help.

― , Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nitsuh mainly i have a problem because indie kids listen to some pussy-ass fuckin hiphop

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i just don't like them because i live @ indie USA ground zero!!

― jess, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

also hiphop fans like all kinds of crazy shit!!

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This thread is like the twilight of an era, Nero fiddling as Rome burns, the sun at the center of the ILM universe flaring into a red giant. It sums up a year and a half of ILM, kind of.

― Mark, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Such as Ethan? (There's a bottle of Jack Daniels on this desk. If you say Jurassic 5, Mos Def, The Roots, People Under The Stairs, and Black Eyed Peas, I swear to God I'm going to finish it)

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

fat girls with ironic backpacks?
I am not fat. i am just physically challenged. And that backpack is now replaced by a bum bag that I wear over my shoulder.

― cuba libre (nathalie), Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ethan turns to indie when he's feeling like a pussy (the Apples, Belle & Sebastian, etc.)

― Mark, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

drink up dom

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Bye bye liver.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(Which makes sense)
(Also, how indie is it that I left the "In Stereo" off?)
(If pussy hip-hop=PM Dawn then count me in)

― Mark, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

go find the roots and mos def c/d threads haha

― ethan, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

2. not misattributed, merely misparsed (cf later post abt "guilt" as a basis for fandom) => it is i think exactly as silly and exactly as plausible as the original thread-claim

4d. i am as all know a huge DC fan of course, and far too old ever to have been an indiekid (beside, indie killed punk rock, maaan)

(sorry abt yr bad day)

― mark s, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Where is the pity? Where is the pity?

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mark S your condolences crossed wires with my plea for more of them: thank you so much, they mean more than I can convey on-screen

― John Darnielle, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Gareth, I was thinking of contributing something to this thread, but I've had too much trouble following it.

― DeRayMi, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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