sometime i read christgau and am amazed...

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Isn't it sort of assumed that the honorable mentions are records the reader is already aware of? Would someone honestly feel inclined to purchase a record based upon the tone of a single sentence or phrase. I always read it as a way for him to deny responsibility if someone bought what they feel to be a shitty album. But really it's like "oh you like the Strokes well the new record basically repeats the first one. sorry, well you know it alright, i guess."

I find myself oft-frustrated by the HM's, even though I know what the classification is about. But those who don't should recognize )(as I understand it) that the HM's are for fans and are recommended to non-fans only with caution. Whether that's implicit in the format for most people, I'm not sure. Regardless of fandom, however, are the HM's usually more cryptic than the As? Perhaps the idea is that you should have to work harder to figure out if you really want the thing, whether or not you're a fan?

I struggled w/ the second one, the best I could come up w/ was that Xgau thinks that Blondie wishes eclecticism was a more powerful tool than it is ("catholic tastes", you see?)

fantastic

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, rock criticism is a lower format than other kinds of writing. thanks for setting us straight.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

novels and hard journalism are automatically better because higher than writing about records. this is a point that cannot be reinforced enough!

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

It's rock criticism, not Ulysses.

What's the fun in separating the two?

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't believe the number of words that are being spilled over a 10-word review! If this was a lead review, it would be inadequate. But in the context of a passel of one-liners, it's fine.

It took me a minute to realize that, if these lyrical snippets were all he was referring to, the ret of it must relatively recognizable as a Blondie record. (I'm assuming it's not a grand concept album or a samba experiment, and I'd expect him to note if it were.)

But taking a minute to read between the lines isn't gonna kill anyone.

"By the way, in case nobody pointed out what I would have assumed is obvious but obviously i'm no judge about that sort of thing, the "reincarnation" part refers not ONLY to a song lyric, but also to, uh, Blondie's CAREER. (i.e. this is sort of a COMEBACK record). Which is kinda clever, since there are TWO meanings to not get, not just one! He said THREE things about the album in just ten words!
-- chuck (cedd...), April 22nd, 2004."


Yeah, but if one to infer a metaphor from "reincarnation" then one can't be criticized for inferring one from "wishes the pope had a bigger dick."

Thus, were I editing him, I would request he clarify thusly:
BLONDIE
The Curse of Blondie
(Sanctuary)

Believes in reincarnation ("Shakedown"), wishes the pope had a bigger dick ("End to End").


Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

NB: I actually tried writing a few pages of a rock & roll version of Finnegans Wake as a teen!

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Rick, please look at the format of all the other honorable mentions, and read the post above where I spoonfed said format. Thank you.

chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

The Pope's Penis

It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate
clapper at the center of a bell.
It moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a
halo of silver seaweed, the hair
swaying in the dark and the heat - and at night,
while his eyes sleep, it stands up
in praise of God.

----- Sharon Olds

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

in other news, classical arias suck because they don't feature Roland TB-303 manipulation.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm assuming it's not a grand concept album or a samba experiment, and I'd expect him to note if it were.)"

Why would you "assume" that? This idea that every review of a particular record has to say the same things about makes no sense at all to me. What if he thought the samba or grand concept weren't IMPORTANT?? What if he thinks, as I do, that Grand Concepts are almost NEVER important, and rarely have anything to do with what might make a record worth listening to??

chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

so far the only interesting thing on this thread is Scott's poem. It's TEN WORDS about an album none of us are interested in hearing! Who gives a fuck! Can we go back to talking about how Chuck looks like David Cross now?

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Or what if he thought they were SORT OF important, but not as important as the fact that there are songs about reincarnation and penile lengths and girths within Vatican City, and he said, "oops, I only have ten words! Better stick to what REALLY MATTERS here?"

x post

By the way, I thought David Cross's singles reviews in the new Rolling Stone were way funnier than his ones in Spin a few months ago, by the way. (But he still doesn't resemble me in the picture.)

chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

really? i thought they sucked just as much as the other ones

cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The shortest, most to the point review I've ever read:

GTR
Sht.

frankE (frankE), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah chuck's got way more hair than david cross. there's no way that if you were in the same room with 'em you'd mistake one for the other.

hstencil, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

how come scott woods or phil dellio or rob sheffield (ok he's too busy being cliff to toure's norm on vh1) or even - hey! - chuck eddy hasn't put all those radio on's online?

cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

What I really wanna know is, if David Cross goes to see a band in NY, any strangers ever come up to him and say, "Hey, you look kinda like the music editor of the Village Voice. Except he has HAIR!"

chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, in that picture of Chuck with the guinea pig, if you just stuck a bald cap on him I think the resemblance would be quite striking. If I had some head shots of David Cross lying around I'd post em side by side but woe unto me I is lazy...

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i'd be more worried if you had them lying around

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

well I'm at work right now, so I can't get to my collection in the shoebox under my bed.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

> "I'm assuming it's not a grand concept album or a samba experiment, > and I'd expect him to note if it were.)"
> Why would you "assume" that?

Because it's called a Consumer Guide. And this is listed under "Other Consumer News." Please don't say "Oh, he's being ironic, you moron." Just don't.


"This idea that every review of a particular record has to say the same things about makes no sense at all to me."
I didn't say it did. I WAS praising this review for hitting the distinctive bits and not bothering with what everyone already knows. Now I'm not so sure.

"What if he thought the samba or grand concept weren't IMPORTANT?? What if he thinks, as I do, that Grand Concepts are almost NEVER important, and rarely have anything to do with what might make a record worth listening to??"

Maybe you're right about the Grand Concept. But if it were a salsa record, would that be a less salient fact of "what might make a record worth listening to" then a couple of lyric snippets?

"Or what if he thought they were SORT OF important, but not as important as the fact that there are songs about reincarnation and penile lengths and girths within Vatican City, and he said, "oops, I only have ten words! Better stick to what REALLY MATTERS here?"

Then I might buy the Blondie album, find out that he completely missed the boat on the most distinctive thing about the album, figure that his priorities regarding music are completely worthless to me, and never read him again.


Jesus, Chuck. Like I said, I WAS praising this review. Now I'm not so sure.


Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos I don't think "player-hating" is a trope, I think it's a useful contraction of a pretty complicated idea. That the term is overused doesn't mean its use invalidates an argument made by its use, I don't think - granted, people (a few years back more than now I think) had a really weaselly tactic where any criticism of anything would get preemptively struck down as "player-hating," but that was just lazy use of language. I mean, you might as well say "uptempo" is a tired trope - it's not when the song you're describing happens to be uptempo.

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I didn't mean to be snippy, Rick. Maybe I'm just having a snippy day, I dunno. Happens sometimes. And usually, yeah, I would guess that if a band made a samba move, that would figure somewhere in a review of the record. But I can definitely think of exceptions. As a critic, I'm ALLOWED to completely ignore the intention of the performer if I want. But yeah, when Lionel Richie put out *Can't Slow Down,* I probably would have mentioned that he included calypso and country songs on it, and no songs that sounded like "Brick House."

chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

How is it possible that I disappeared for an hour and a half and came back to 133 new posts?

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

That's all I'm sayin'. (xpost to Chuck)


Great - now my mind's eye is flashing on the cover shot of Can't Slow Down.


In the immortal words of Alice Cooper, "GOOD NIGHT!"

Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

banjomania that's every dumb it down argument ever (ie. the folx in the stix won't get it)(ie. how we (=usa) got to this place)(bush/cheney 2004 - 'dude don't think so much')

Yes blount, the refusal to indulge rock critics who care more about being prose stylists than giving their readers some idea what the recordings under discussion sound like is the first step on the slippery slope to an imperialist plutocracy.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockist you can always check Amazon's customer reviews if you want nuts-n-bolts stuff, I myself am a lot more interested in prose stylings than in "crisp guitar-based rock, produced by Steve Albini" or whatever

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I do like the comparison of a critic's disregard for their readers with a musicians' disdain for critics. That seems rather apt.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

e.g., "you're too fucking stupid to understand my writing" = "you're too fucking stupid to understand my album"

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 22 April 2004 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

criticism /= nuts and bolts stuff

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

? isn't that what I said?

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

was answering Rockist

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

also J0#n OTM re lazy usage re "player hating," it's just come up a lot lately (or so I'm noticing for some reason) and I'm overly sensitive to it

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

haha now it looks like I'm sensitive to player-hating! I mean I have little patience for its overuse.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"Rock critics who care more about being prose stylists than giving their readers some idea what the recordings under discussion sound like"

Rockist, who do you think actually falls in this category? Obviously, you can't say that about Christgau in general.

Tim Ellison, Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I miss J.D. Considine's "short takes". Where is he these days?

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:16 (twenty-two years ago)

how many people who contribute to these threads actually read Christgau, I wonder? a lot of the time it seems to me like it's the eqiv. of a pub discussion in which crunk, let's say, is roundly dissed by people who wouldn't know it from a hole in the ground. "omg! that one little fragment I saw on this thread is so bad, how can you say he's a good writer when that 25-word snippet suxorz?! wtf?!"

J.D. Considine was at the EMP Pop Conference! He gave a paper (that I missed) on J-pop, sounded intriguing. Otherwise I think he lives in Toronto and freelances for Blender among others.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:17 (twenty-two years ago)

He's posting to Brecht threads on ILM

Say Something Interesting about "The Threepenny Opera"

Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:18 (twenty-two years ago)

a lot of the time it seems to me like it's the eqiv. of a pub
discussion in which crunk, let's say, is roundly dissed by people who wouldn't know it from a hole in the ground.

DeRo to thread, obv.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:19 (twenty-two years ago)

my favorite stuff of xgau's has always been his longform pieces (not counting the pazz and jop's when i think he sometimes goes on more than is good for him, ironically); i always saw the cg haiku's as mental colon cleansers.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:19 (twenty-two years ago)

also, let's face it, the man is really good at snappy putdowns.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:20 (twenty-two years ago)

haha which, as anyone who posts to ilx regularly should know, is an art

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:20 (twenty-two years ago)

when he loves loves loves something he can be really amazing, because he's so unsentimental and so hell-bent on saying something interesting or worthwhile or that hasn't been mentioned yet. the live D'Angelo review is one of my favorite pieces of music writing ever anywhere, I about jumped out of my chair when I first saw it.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Nuts and bolts, or not, I don't think of critcism as something that exists autonomously, worthwhile for its own aesthetic value, or for what it reveals about it's author, or the like. It's functional, or it started out as something functional.

(I'm not into those French guys.)

I need a new job. This one leaves me too much dead time with a PC in front of me.

x-post: Rockist, who do you think actually falls in this category? Obviously, you can't say that about Christgau in general.

What I've seen of Christgau often falls into this category, but I haven't gone out of my way to read him.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

which, I think, is a lot of people's problem with him: he's unsentimental, and he's trying to say different things about music or people or books or whatever than you've read 50 other places. that unnerves people; it unnerved me for a long time in other people's writing (for some reason I always cottoned to RC's stuff, probably because we share affinities for a lot of things), I'd feel like, "Well you can't say that!" and of course you can, you just have to be good at it.

xpost: DING DING DING DING DING

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"It's functional, or it started out as something functional."

Sort of like salsa music, Rockist? Do you not think that's "worthwhile for its own aesthetic value, or for what it reveals about its author" either, since people dance to it? Bizarre. How, exactly, does walking prevent a person from chewing gum??

chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

chuck, in criticism, I see enjoyable prose style as a nice extra. I'm not saying it can't be there, but it's not normally a reason I would read it. (I don't read things for that reason, in general, though.)

How it's different from music designed to be danced to I'd have to think about. I guess for one thing, in my experience, salsa or some other music made to accompany dancing is enjoyable to me when I'm just listening to it without dancing.

Also, if I went out to see a salsa band, with the intention of dancing, and found that they were going off on their own tangents which made it difficult to dance to them, I'd be frustrated and feel cheated (unless I just happened to really like their tangents). In a similar way, if I read one of Christgau's really compact, elliptical and hard to decipher reviews, when I wanted to get an idea of how something sounded, I'd be unsatisfied.

And I guess my complaint would be with critics who aren't taking care of the functional side of their work.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 April 2004 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

gawd.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Gawd, what? Explain what is so awful about that?

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 22 April 2004 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

> I see enjoyable prose style as a nice extra. I'm not saying it can't be there, but it's not normally a reason I would read it. (I don't read things for that reason, in general, though.)>

So mainly, you enjoy cookbooks, phone books, and auto repair manuals?

chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)


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