rolling stone's 500 greatest albums of all time

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PPL now frankly don't care about the provenance of a particular style, unless they do if you see what i mean.

― Pete S, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

*xpost*
last part otm. if synths had remained solely the province of prog rockers then i think i might still be listening to sebadoh records *shudders*

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Hip-hop is just as passing fad - completely forgotten in 20 years - while rock will live forever.
Geir...there were people saying that in 1981!
Questions you must now answer:

1) What year is it again?
2) Which genre pretty much rules the charts right now?
3) Who currently sells more records right now
   a) Jay-Z or
   b) Bob Seger?
4) Who currently sells more records right now
   a) Missy Elliot or
   b) Lita Ford?
5) Whos the hottest producer right now
   a) Timbaland or
   b) Mitchell Froom?

You won't be in any position to make anymore unprovable assertions until you answer those questions.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 03:31 (twenty-two years ago)

geir lost his girl, rap is from the future, this thread is depressing

― asfdzxc (asfdzxc), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 03:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Custos, you're stacking the deck there. I don't agree with Geir here, but come on. Here's a fairer 3), 4), and 5):

3) Who currently sells more records right now
a) Jay-Z or
b) The White Stripes?
4) Who currently sells more records right now
a) Missy Elliot or
b) Pink?
5) Who's the hottest producer right now
a) Timbaland or
b) Steve Albini?

You'd still make your point without, well, cheating.

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 05:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Right now, Pink and Steve Albini are about to win that. I am not that much of a fan of that extremely hard and noisy "new rock" either, but hopefully, when it has become dominant enough the guys will calm down and start writing songs rather than making noise instead.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Custos, you're stacking the deck there.
No. No, not really. I stuck to Rockist faves like Bob Seger and Mitchell Froom. Call me cynical, but I suspect that old guard at RS only writes about the White Stripes and P!nk because the record companies ~~bribes~~asks them to, not because the old guard at RS wants to.
(Besides... Seger, Ford and Froom1 were the first names that popped into my head on such short notice. In retrospect, Eric Clapton, Patti Smith and Todd Rundgren might've been better choices.)

Footnote 1: "Have ypu recently been injured in an accident. Then call the Lawfirm of Seger, Ford and Froom! If you don't get paid, then neither do we."

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I am not that much of a fan of that extremely hard and noisy "new rock" either, but hopefully, when it has become dominant enough the guys will calm down and start writing songs rather than making noise instead.
Aha! Gier Hongro is secretly Jann Wenner! Gimme my five bucks.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

But Mitchell Froom isn't even rock. He is pop.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Beatles/XTC/Mitchell Froom/Crowded House is about as much "rock" as Public Enemy is "soul"

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

But Mitchell Froom isn't even rock. He is pop.

From Roni Sarig's "The Secret History of Rock":
"Pop" is a musical term, pop generally refers to popular music, all the stuff (rock, country, jazz, adult contemporary, etc.) that's not considered classical. Taken more literally, pop means popular; the stuff on the radio, on MTV, in the Top 40. But pop has another connotation, one more difficult to pinpoint. This is the sense in which we're going to use it in this chapter. As a concept, Pop (with a capital P), can draw from many genres. Whether or not a particular piece of music is Pop doesn't depend on how many people hear it or how many copies it sells.

Though I think Robert Anton Wilson (and|or) Terrence McKenna said it better this way: "The Map is not the territory, the Menu is not the meal"
"Pop" is generally a meaningless term. The closest you'll ever get to defining it is by saying "Pop is whatever The Beatles, Michael Jackson, NSync and Abba have in common that make little 12 year old girls squeal and 40 year old stock arbitraguers hum at the bus stop."
But not every band is Pop 24-hours of the day. The Beatles did Helter Skelter for example (which made them "Rock"). And weirdo heavy metal band Faith No More did a cover of "Easy" which made them either "Pop" or "Soul" depending on who you ask.
Anyhow...the point I'm making is this: The notion that genre is an ironclad category surrounded by tank berms and concertina wire and that a band picks one genre and stays rigidly within it...is a phantasmal fiction and a bit of recieved pseudo-wisdom.

Thank you, you've been a wonderful audience.
I'll now turn this discussion over to the next speaker.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh wait!
(runs back to the podium)
To clarify that Terrence McKenna comment...I meant to say that just because someone calls something by some genre...it doesn't mean it is that genre.
and to clarify the genre definition...although Sarig claims that "Pop is everything that isn't classical" I suspect it might be better to say that Pop (if it can be defined at all) is anything that isn't satanic speed metal, gangsta rap or Frank Zappa. (Though any of the above may contain "Pop-ish" elements.
Okay. I'm done.
(steps away from the podium.)

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

It's interesting to see that apparently only two metal bands have managed to cross over to the rock mainstream: Black Sabbath and Metallica.

― Siegbran (eofor), Thursday, 27 November 2003 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

And I very much doubt that "Master Of Puppets" would've been included if the Black Album was never released.

― Siegbran (eofor), Thursday, 27 November 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Pop doesn't deserve such broad definitions.

Pop is best defined what it is not IMO:

- If it doesn't have its main emphasis on harmony and melody then it isn't pop
- If it has a production focusing too much on danceability then it isn't pop, but dance/disco
- If it is too improvised, then it isn't pop, but jazz/soul/R&B
- If the guitars make too much noise, then it isn't pop but rock
- If the melody has too many bluenotes in it, then it isn't pop but rock/blues/R&B.

Still, most of The Beatles' output (except stuff such as "Helter Skelter" that is) fits well into the pop category, as highly melodic and harmonic, mainly diatonic, music, that doesn't have a production focusing too much on guitars or rhythm.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 27 November 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

It's interesting to see that apparently only two metal bands have managed to cross over to the rock mainstream: Black Sabbath and Metallica.

Van Halen's debut, Def Leppard's "Hysteria" and Iron Maiden's "Number Of The Beast" are usually found in those lists, at least if as much as 500 albums are included.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 27 November 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

These lists are meaningless on their own. I think ILM did a list like this a while back - the results were quite interesting. Anyone got the link?

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Thursday, 27 November 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Really enjoyed these threads, guys, but aren't 60% of your criticisms rendered moot by the fact that this is a Rolling Stone POLL of voters (e.g. Fats Domino, Solomon Burke, etc.) and not simply the editors' picks?

I loved the issue but I wonder if I wasn't also put in a good mood by the reminder that Fats Domino and Solomon Burke are still alive.

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 1 December 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm curious if their 1000th issue list of 1000 grebtest albums of all time will have the same initial 100. (ie, will "Revolver/Sgt Pepper" still be duking it out that far in the future.)

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Monday, 1 December 2003 01:28 (twenty-two years ago)

But Pete, the voters are chosen by the editors. How many of the voters were white men over forty? (Honestly, I'm asking, I haven't seen the print issue yet. But I've heard that the Mo Ostins far outweigh the Solomon Burkes. Is there a list of who was polled online somewhere?)

Plus, if they wanted to make the list less stupid, they could lay down some simple ground rules--no greatest hits, votes for US and UK versions of Beatles albums are lumped together, only six Elton John records per ballot.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 1 December 2003 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Attn ILM:

Geir is allowed to have an opinion SHOCK!

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 1 December 2003 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

put on that last Solomon Burke album and your great mood will even itself out in a hurry, Pete

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 1 December 2003 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Haven't heard it. But Fats Domino!

Keith, I can't reproduce the voter list here (skimming, I see Moby, Paul Shaffer, Eric Weisbard, the Edge, Rick Rubin, Carole King, Yoko Ono), but it seems to me like there was an honest attempt at what the kids today call inclusiveness. EPMD would not be on here without someone in editorial pulling for more rap voters.

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 1 December 2003 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I could be wrong. I'd love to see the same math and method done with 273 entirely different voters.

I'd also love to see the same results from the same voters but with different methods and math. As it is, any of the Top 500 had to appear on at least five different ballots, encouraging consensus picks over passionate idiosyncracy.

And while I'm at it, I'd love to see the complete ballots!

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 1 December 2003 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

As it is, the things most obviously stupid about the list (its redundancy) are also the things that make it seem more human and subject to non-canon-reeinforcing change. Plus it's kind of cool that Britney Spears helped edge Thriller into the Top 20, even though the editors put her down elsewhere. Her Top Ten:

1. Michael Jackson, Thriller (20)
2. Janet Jackson, Rhythm Nation 1814 (275)
3. Michael Jackson, Bad (202)
4. Madonna, Like a Prayer (237)
5. Michael Jackson, Off the Wall (68)
6. Whitney Houston, Whitney Houston (254)
7. Otis Redding, The Dock of the Bay (161)
8. Prince and the Revolution, Purple Rain (72)
9. Prince, Sign 'o' the Times (93)
10. TLC, CrazySexyCool (377)

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 1 December 2003 04:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe I'm going soft on this list because easily more than two thirds of these albums have passed through or stayed in my collection, and they easily make up more than a third of my own evolving Top 100:

http://babelogue.citypages.com:8080/pscholtes/stories/storyReader$29

Also, if this issue makes me finally break down and buy Exile on Main Street, or makes a Stones fan discover Professor Longhair or the Minutemen, those immediate and happy effects would seem to me to be as powerful as the gradual and sad effect of '60s supremacist thinking.

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 1 December 2003 04:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Pete, where'd you come across the Britney list? Is it in the mag itself?

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 1 December 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish I were as optimistic about this as you, Pete, honestly. I don't think it's a BAD thing necessarily, just a dreary one--one reason the RS '87 list had the impact it did on me and I suspect others is that we weren't being inundated by the canon to the degree we are now. There was no VH1 top 100s every other weekend, and the institutionalization of the 100 Greatest Albums lists--much less what routinely topped them--hadn't taken effect yet, was years away in fact. So at this point, it seems really redundant for Rolling Stone to say Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is the greatest album of all time AGAIN, and follow it with the usual suspects AGAIN, and ignore music by non-English-speakers AGAIN, and intimate that no music made in my lifetime except Nevermind (which is one of my five favorite '90s albums, easy, but nevertheless) is as good as the usual suspects AGAIN, whatever the method they used to obtain the results.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 1 December 2003 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

and even if you're not immersed in listography, the top 500 is diffused by its lack of breadth, its sameness with concurrent lists (VH1, Mojo, etc.), and the fact that nobody under 30 who cares about contemporary music could possibly take a list with as few hip-hop records on it as this one seriously < /possible, and definitely passionate, overstatement>

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 1 December 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Pete: didn't Beck get asked to vote, too? I'd be interested in seeing his ballot.

MTV2 recently (?) had a feature on "the 22 Best CDs, like, ever", which was interesting in that it used the specific media format itself to limit things to a primarily mid '80s-onward milieu. Granted, this meant that we got a list with Live on it.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 1 December 2003 05:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Britney's list is in the mag, and Beck did indeed vote, Nate. I don't see his Top Ten, but I'd love to. Wayne Coyne's is as goofy as you'd expect, but I have to admit, I love The Wizard of Oz soundtrack, too, and never before thought of considering it for an all-time great album (it's as much a story record as a music record, granted)...

I sympathize, Michaelangelo, I just think the main sadness I have about the list has to do with things it can't control:

-the fact that so much great non-English music has no way to be heard here by critics, never mind RS's illustrious voters...

-that there were just less records made in the '60s, so a consensus was easier to reach (plus, you know, demographics and shit)...

-that London Calling is only slightly longer than the average filler-padded CD these days...

-that I can't explain to Keith that What's Going On is a great record without making references to pot smoke, depression, or "being black in America" (only two of which I know anything about)...

-that there are records as good as, say, the Monks' Black Monk Time (which I just heard for the first time this year), and the best I can hope for is that I'll eventually hear them and add them to my oh-so-seminal-and-influential Top 100 list...

― Pete Scholtes, Monday, 1 December 2003 05:43 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...

People like Jay Z and Green Day make the list, but one of the greatest talents of the 90's is no where to be found. Listen to any of Tool's (Maynard James Keenan) albums and you mean to tell me they don't deserve a spot on this list. RS you know nothing.

― Matt Nearhoof, Monday, 29 March 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

As a 40 year old having seen many rock gigs over the last 25 years not one band mentioned in the list (and I include the Beatles in this) could lick U2s boots live on stage and if a rock band cannot replicate or better their vinyl sound on stage then they're no better than Westlife!

― Ged Rafferty, Tuesday, 30 March 2004 09:50 (twenty-two years ago)

What a bloody naff list... I'm ashamed that I'm expending the energy to assail it. "Pepper," "Pet Sounds," "London Calling"... All shite.

― Red Gafferty, Tuesday, 30 March 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...

Heeeeeee....U2 "Achtung Baby" is one minor stretch, but "Leave them...."? I could find more vision if I spent a day listening to Poison's "Flesh and Blood".

Shams and Be Ashamed...
My Bloody's Loveless is top 50 material.
PiL's Metal Box needs to be in the top 150.
Massive Attack's Blue Lines at 395?

Ignored?
Underworld's Dubnobasswithmy or Second Toughest
Teenage Fanclub's Bandwagonesque.
American Music Club's Everclear
Lisa Germano Geek the Girl
Gang Starr Moment of Truth for chrissake

Yeah, I reek of my generation with these picks, but that's my two sense.

― Jason Edward Becker, Monday, 19 April 2004 13:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I must say: I am positivly delighted that the beatles are number one.I love them.

― D D, Tuesday, 20 April 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm surprised no one's complained about the comparative level of the Roxy Music albums. Avalon? The best of them? Avalon is a watery, formless wank-fest showcasing Bryan Ferry's musical obsessions. His post-Roxy solo career is generally held in poor regard and it's about time that this identical-sounding Roxy album be demoted considerably.

Not to say that a late-era Roxy singles compilation wouldn't be absolutely amazing.

And why is Pavement apparently so magnificent whereas the Smiths are what, over one hundred albums lower?

Massive Attack made it on, to whomever was complaining about a lack of electric music on this list. Full-on electronica is mostly a singles medium, though, and the artists mostly aren't old enough to release silly Greatest Hits albums.

Side note: The Human League's "Dare" definitely deserves a spot.

By the way, is Screamadelica on there anywhere?

― Atnevon (Atnevon), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

41. Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols, The Sex Pistols
...
358. Singles Going Steady, Buzzcocks
410. Pink Flag, Wire

AWFUL.

No Aphex Twin.
No Can.
No Slayer.

I think they picked the right Kraftwerk album.
Massive under representation of anything other than typical ROCK cannon
crap in the upper numbers.

Sandinista is on this list; this album blows.

Only one Sonic Youth album; 3 Radiohead shitfests.

COLDPLAY?????????????????????????????

― Acid! Polizei! (ex machina), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

hahah, I picked out that message from Geir as being his as soon as I reached his comment on the VU....

― Acid! Polizei! (ex machina), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

how the shit didnt at least one of queens albums make the 500 cut and the dead kennedys 2 of the most importent bands of all time and you have the beatlles in every 10 spots everyone is sick of hearing about the beatles god,,,,, shame rolling stone shame shame shame shame ...........shame

― robert brent trew, Wednesday, 26 May 2004 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I have nothing against rap. In fact, I remember a day when rap music was pretty ok. Beastie Boys? Run DMC? Hey, I am a rock freak. My room is plastered with rock posters, because I grew up on that stuff. People shouldn't be getting all voer rap. SO rap isn't all that fantastic. Give 'em a break.

Zepplelin rules!!!

― Sol W., Monday, 31 May 2004 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahahaha

― David Allen (David Allen), Monday, 31 May 2004 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey Robert, you think Queen and the Dead Kennedies are the two most important bands? We should start a band together, because that's the sound Im looking for.

― David Allen (David Allen), Monday, 31 May 2004 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

"No Aphex Twin.
No Can.
No Slayer."

reason enough to igore the list.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 31 May 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

three weeks pass...

I really think Nirvana "Nevermind" should've been top 10. i like In utero the best, but Nevermind turned the music world upside down just as the beatles did. it is a modern day classic and should be given some god damn justice

― Zac, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 05:48 (twenty-one years ago)

man the great ones just are never recognized, I'm afraid Nirvana will continue to be grotesquely underreported and Cobain's legacy, already discussed not-at-all in the pages of music magazines around the world, will never be given its proper due.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 05:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Cobain's influence on modern music is staggering, from Britney to Lil Jon.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 05:53 (twenty-one years ago)

man all I see in Rolling Stone, Spin, Melody Maker, etc is "13th Floor Elevators this, Mekons that, blah blah Deadly Snakes, yadda yadda Ellen Allien, David Banner, etc". Man put Cobain on a cover already.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 05:59 (twenty-one years ago)

four months pass...

What I don't understand is how there could possibly be such a list without an album from The Whitlams on it! Especially Eternal Nightcap. Of course I don't know what countries y'all are from but they're an Australian band and they are absolutely divine. Oh, and yes I agree there should be some Frank Zappa on here =P And of course there are some more I would add but I don't want to bother y'all with my ramblings.

― meis fidelus, Thursday, 18 November 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

No Mariah?

Butterfly is a vocal and lyric masterpiece. It didn't chart even between 400's and 500's.

Rolling Stone truly hates her.

― distant laughter, Wednesday, 3 May 2006 04:30 (twenty years ago)

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