Ask Geir Hongro

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oranges to coffee, veal to cheescake, whatever...

― PappaWheelie V, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

But like a lot of pre-Beatles non blues-based pop it's mainly ostinato based. And the entire song is in the same key

In what sense is it ostinato based? And From Me To You is just as much in one key as much as Til There Was You. FMTY doesn't really modulate - it's entirely in C with brief allusions to to G and F via secondary dominants (like many pieces of music in C).

Aaanyway, this is sort of a goofy argument. From Me to You has some nice twists in it, I agree. I'm just saying it's not the most sterling example of The Beatles compositional chops because it isn't really far out or weird in any sense and they always did stuff like that, even in their early songs. But you know you don't have to hang your whole reason for liking it on that key change.

Even if jazz, blues, pop, rock and whatever is different genres of music, I expect all of them to have the main empasis on melody and harmony.

Part of the definition of different genres is that they don't all emphasize the same things. Not even all Classical or Romantic or Baroque music has a melodic emphasis.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:16 (nineteen years ago)

you should definitely listen to Opeth's Damnation.

Does it contain grinding or screaming? NO

Does it contain loud and fast guitars? NO

it's a mellow melodic progressive art-rock album

― djmartian, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

One thing here: While I stand by that one key change in "From Me To You" as the definite one, there is another guy that I'd rather pick as a prime example of key changes being used in a great way, and that is Nik Kershaw. Particularly the constant key changes in the middle-eight of "The Riddle" is absolutely genius.

it's entirely in C with brief allusions to to G and F via secondary dominants (like many pieces of music in C).

But that is sort of the most interesting kind of modulations. See also "The Riddle".

it's a mellow melodic progressive art-rock album

Like Arena or Spock's Beard (both of which are usually put in the "Metal" section in record shops here for some strange reason)

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:19 (nineteen years ago)

I expect all of them to have the main empasis on melody and harmony.

And there's the point where you lose all credibility with me. Actually, you never had any to lose. "Expectation is a prison," as the man says. Still, I guess I'm happy that you know what you like.

― Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know "The Riddle," I'll have to check it out.

But that is sort of the most interesting kind of modulations.

I'm saying it's not really a modulation at all. When you're doing a harmonic analysis and there are only four bars of a piece that could be analyzed as not being in the home key, you'll generally just label them secondary dominants and not call it a key change (the way you did when talking about Til There Was You). And I doubt anyone notating that song would write a new key signature for those four bars.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

Secondary dominants sure, I have learned secondary dominants to be referred to as a modulation too. But I know there are different methods of doing harmonic analysis in different institutions.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

If you analyze something as a secondary dominant it means you haven't modulated yet - otherwise it would just be the dominant. In C, D7 is the V/V. If you've modulated to G, it's the V. Sometimes a secondary dominant leads into a modulation, but like I said, as that song is only debatably in F for four bars, you'd just stay in C and write ii/IV V/IV IV and then you've got V/V V I in C. You could just as easily analyze it as going into F for 4 bars, G for 2 bars, and then back to C (people will sometimes analyze in 2 keys at once for a few bars when something like this comes up - although like I said I really doubt anyone would notate it that way), but I'm just pointing this out as evidence for why it's not that special. It just borrows one note from a closely-related key (Bb) and only does it for two bars. That's a nice touch, but it's far from the most sophisticated one even within their own catalogue.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:35 (nineteen years ago)

None of that changes how the song sounds, which is presumably what Geir appreciates. Remember that McCartney can't even read music.

― everything, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:42 (nineteen years ago)

McCartney surely may have done more sophisticated moves in his ballads later on, but that move was the first. Before that, rock music was supposed to be extremely harmonically simple and other than Del Shannon nobody experimented much with harmony.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:42 (nineteen years ago)

That's kind of my point, everything. I'm saying that Geir likes the song because of how it sounds, and he shouldn't need to try and prove it's worth liking by saying it has a really remarkable key change.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:46 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, I still like From Me To You without thinking it has a key change worth caring about.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

Everly Brothers?

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

geir, what is your favourite synthesizer?

― creme1, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:52 (nineteen years ago)

None of that changes how the song sounds, which is presumably what Geir appreciates.

not how the song sounds -- how the medody and harmony sound

― PappaWheelie V, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

geir, what is your favourite synthesizer?

I haven't actually been able to play the original heavyweight monster, mind you, but Arturia's Yamaha CS80 softsynth sounds incredibly warm.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

not how the song sounds -- how the medody and harmony sound

Yeah, I mean, it'd be nice to see arrangement get some credit. The notes don't assign themselves to instruments, you know! And orchestration is a big deal in classical music.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:11 (nineteen years ago)

Geir which period of Hüsker Dü do you prefer best?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

I believe this link will answer any and all questions about Damnation:

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:hzfpxqeald0e

― Jeff Treppel, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

Geir which period of Hüsker Dü do you prefer best?

The post-period. (Sugar, that is ;) )

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

Geir, please rank these bands :

Yes
Genesis
Jethro Tull
Dream Theater
Rush
ELP
Camel
Barclay James Harvest
King Crimson
The Beatles

― Matt #2, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:05 (nineteen years ago)

Genesis
The Beatles
Yes
ELP
Camel
King Crimson
Rush
Barclay James Harvest
Jethro Tull
Dream Theater

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:11 (nineteen years ago)

Some surprises there.

― Matt #2, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:23 (nineteen years ago)

geir hongro: this things i believe

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:25 (nineteen years ago)

Geir Hongro: does the suicide of

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:28 (nineteen years ago)

I pressed return in the middle of that sentence, but it looks better without the final ten words

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:29 (nineteen years ago)

that ranking looks about right (though I haven't heard most of the bands including Genesis, mostly I'm just happy Rush is in the bottom half and Dream Theater is dead last)

― Curt1s Stephens, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:31 (nineteen years ago)

oh, you've heard PLENTY of genesis, curtis.
just probably not the good stuff.

― Fetchboy, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 01:46 (nineteen years ago)

Geir, what are your favorite songs on Rubber Soul? Rank them if you like.

― JN$OT, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 07:52 (nineteen years ago)

"In My Life", "Michelle", "Girl", "You Won't See Me". Not neccessarily in that particular order, but those four stick out.

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:00 (nineteen years ago)

Nice. "In My Life" and "Girl" have always been my favorites.

― JN$OT, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 08:04 (nineteen years ago)

Dear Geir,

Why is anything heavier than Genesis or Yes too heavy? Also, how did you arrive at that specific heaviness threshold?

― Jeff Treppel, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:37 (nineteen years ago)

Hi Gier: do you under any circumstances believe that simplicity is a virtue in music?

― chap, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:42 (nineteen years ago)

Why is anything heavier than Genesis or Yes too heavy?

Because good music isn't supposed to be heavy at all. Good music is supposed to be pretty and soothing.

Hi Gier: do you under any circumstances believe that simplicity is a virtue in music?

Only if the music becomes so complex that tonality is being abandoned.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 4 May 2007 08:28 (nineteen years ago)

"good"

"pretty"

"soothing"

Yer a riot.

― JN$OT, Friday, 4 May 2007 08:31 (nineteen years ago)

Like the one at the Exhibition of Degenerative Art organised by Goering in Nazi Germany 1938!!!!

― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 4 May 2007 11:06 (nineteen years ago)

Because good music isn't supposed to be heavy at all. Good music is supposed to be pretty and soothing.

Absolutely the dumbest thing ever posted on ILM.

― Rock Hardy, Friday, 4 May 2007 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

Dear Geir,

If that is the case, do you only like soothing and pretty movies/books/paintings?

― Jeff Treppel, Friday, 4 May 2007 19:49 (nineteen years ago)

So what if he does?

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 4 May 2007 19:56 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not making any judgment calls here. It's a pretty innocuous question! I obviously disagree with him, but I'm honestly curious if that's how he views just music, or all art in general. No need to get defensive about a question that wasn't even aimed at you. The thread is, after all, titled "Ask Geir Hongro."

― Jeff Treppel, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

It's less Geir's extremely particular viewpoints, it's his pretentions to authority and objectivity. Where is he getting these ideas of what music is "supposed" to be other than his own personal reactions?

― sexyDancer, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:10 (nineteen years ago)

Only if the music becomes so complex that tonality is being abandoned.

That does not compute. Tonality and complexity are not opposing forces (SEE ALSO: JS Bach).

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

If that is the case, do you only like soothing and pretty movies/books/paintings?

In the case of paintings, probably. In the case of books or movies it depends on whether they are meant just for entertainment. Music is meant just for entertainment.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry, I tried to stay away, but that's complete bullshit and the new stupidest thing ever said here. Music has said more to me than any film and most books.

― call all destroyer, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:18 (nineteen years ago)

This thread is making my head spin. Who posting here ISN'T Marcello?

― Euler, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:18 (nineteen years ago)

Music has never ever said anything to me other than music itself, and it shouldn't say anything to anyone else as then you devalue the value of music as a value in itself.

― Geir Hongro, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:19 (nineteen years ago)

aesthtetic pansy delusions, lol

― sexyDancer, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not even mad, just blown away by how wrong that is. I don't even know what to do.

― call all destroyer, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:23 (nineteen years ago)

Geir is Ralph Wiggum.

― Rock Hardy, Friday, 4 May 2007 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

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