Christgau, Chusid, or DeRogatis: Which critic is the most useless?

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Lester Bangs knew a hell of a lot about music and one might argue that he was an insightful thinker.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:03 (seventeen years ago) link

GRRRRRRRRRRR okay I'm sorry but I get REALLY sick of that fucking argument, and will not countenance it except maybe from well-meaning 16-year-olds who just had their MINDS BLOWN by the cool English teachers they're going to get their college-app recommendations from, or MAYBE stoned college freshmen just learning the wonders of the Stoner Solipsism Bubble, because at least that's preferable to their getting their Mind Blown Explanation to the Universe(TM) from Ayn Rand or Macro-econ 101.

Our opinions are subjective, no shit; if this makes talking about them an "exercise in futility," then you are claiming that ALL HUMAN COMMUNICATION IS POINTLESS, yes, no point sharing our subjective impressions and comparing them and being interested in other people's and maybe letting other people's subjective impressions influence our own, etc. etc.

And we know for a fact you DON'T BELIEVE THAT, because you've bothered posting to a message board and trying to communicate with other people, beyond which you're STILL ALIVE, and if you honestly believed in such a bullshit anti-human fake-logical position, you would be so much better off just killing yourself and not bothering the rest of us in our alleged Solipsism Bubbles.

P.S. All those caps are not just textual emphasis and are literally me YELLING AT YOU.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

"snrub otm!"

http://www.calvin.edu/news/photos/faculty/rooks.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, WTF, is it the INTERNET that's causing this ridiculous explosion of Solipsism True Believers who go around bothering you and (of all fucking things) TALKING TO YOU about how communicating with other people is totally futile??? This is the most ridiculous, pathetic, and (if you SERIOUSLY believe it) patently evil position a human being could possibly take, and yet here go people thinking it's some kind of brilliant idea.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, he was also arguing that critics are full of themselves.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:10 (seventeen years ago) link

nabisco is yoga flame for all time

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:10 (seventeen years ago) link

"the musings of a self-proclaimed authority"

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:11 (seventeen years ago) link

http://cache.bordom.net/images/cb38cb5004473ea6ba5e8f8c2f602940.jpg

― NYCNative, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Don't worry, I'm not debasing the value of human communication. Jesus, people need to chill.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe in there being a heirarchy of opinion with regards to artistic media. People with a wider palate of a certain medium—by which I mean, those who have seen more films or read more books or listened to more records than the average person—can parlay that background into a potentially more comprehensive perspective, but that in and of itself does not make their opinions any more valid than those of your regular popcorn moviegoer. Even the most well-versed music lover has his or her own likes and dislikes, which are bound to skew their interpretation of a certain piece. No one's opinions should be taken as gospel; that's all I meant.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:09 (seventeen years ago) link

BRING BACK LOUIS JAGGER

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Let's face facts here—what M. Doughty does is generate mail.

― deusner, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:19 (seventeen years ago) link

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcmerritt/images/web/captain-obvious.jpg

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:19 (seventeen years ago) link

DAMN YOU PASSANTINO XXPOST

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:20 (seventeen years ago) link

"Jesus, people need to chill."

http://www.calvin.edu/news/photos/faculty/stapert.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:20 (seventeen years ago) link

Soulde, honestly the only person you're proving useless with this thread is yourself. You're spouting a bunch of cliched tripe about music criticism to a bunch of people you don't know, many of them music critics who have spent way more time thinking about this stuff than you have and have already encountered everything you're saying a million times.

If it's any consolation to you, new posters do this sort of thing all the time. In fact, I did it in some form by first defending "rockism" without really knowing what it was and then starting a thread where I was going to show all these 80s-lovers why they were actually wrong and the 80s were a crap decade for music.It's a little like sitting in on someone's second or third-year philosophy class and interrupting the professor in the first ten minutes by saying "But how do we really know anything?"

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:21 (seventeen years ago) link

It's a little like sitting in on someone's second or third-year philosophy class and interrupting the professor in the first ten minutes by saying "But how do we really know anything?"

This is one of the most otm things on this thread.

― max, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Damn, everything I'm saying is both clichéd and ignorant. Oh, but wait, it's okay, because other people have made similar asses of themselves here before. What a relief.

What percentage of users here get paid to review their mail?

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:28 (seventeen years ago) link

well I can only speak for myself here, but sometimes I soak the stamps 'til the postmarks come off and then reuse them

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Isn't it spring break? Go out and do something disreputable.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:30 (seventeen years ago) link

I really hate loan offers that are made to look like official documents from a lender you're already using.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks, but I'm long out of school.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks, but I'm long out of school.

Ask for your money back.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks, but I'm long out of school
souldesqueeze, are you Paul Edward Wagemama?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Ned Zings: Rare but Mighty.

― g®▲Ðұ, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:34 (seventeen years ago) link

"Thanks, but I'm long out of school."

http://www.botany.utexas.edu/facstaff/facpages/mbrown/Mbrownhome/elaine/reflections/photo1.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Answer me this: do you take my opinions as a personal slight? If not, why such an outraged response? It would be easier to just ignore them than to fire back.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:42 (seventeen years ago) link

http://seriocomic.com/images/20050828122229_bored.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:43 (seventeen years ago) link

We're a little bored, souldesqueeze- it's easier to throw peanuts at trolls than to think of something interesting to say.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:44 (seventeen years ago) link

souldesqueeze, which is the bigger insult: that you started a thread here not expecting to get flamed (showing that you've clearly never read a thread on ILX), or that you got flamed?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:45 (seventeen years ago) link

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/15984/bored.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Hey, did I say to stop with the peanuts? I need to eat somehow.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Which is why, even though many of us have indulged in tearing down a sacred cow critic or two, maybe we've come to appreciate them for at least presenting an opinion for us to think about, as opposed to a message board newbie who's too cool for school.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:46 (seventeen years ago) link

the latter being an expression not necessarily having to do with actual school

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:47 (seventeen years ago) link

You took it as an insult that I expected a casual discussion of a subject that I thought was totally inconsequential?

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:47 (seventeen years ago) link

http://images.travelpod.com/users/darkstar/africa_05.1127286720.bored.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:48 (seventeen years ago) link

souldesqueeze is just lucky louis jagger went off the net today

ghost rider on Monday, March 26, 2007 3:59 PM

There's seven people dead
On a South Dakota farm
Somewhere in the distance
There's seven new people born

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Trust me, I have neither the hope nor inclination of ever being cool. But it's nice that you'd insinuate as such.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Look, at least 30% of the posters here are either Robert Christgau or Irwin Chusid, and some of them are both!

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:49 (seventeen years ago) link

No, it's an insult that you went onto a board filled with music critics - professional or otherwise - and then dismissed everything they do in your title post. "I've always been incredulous of the supposed value of criticism, but I despise rock critics with a passion, most notably the ones who actually take themselves seriously." Of all the places to post this, you chose to post it on a rock critic message board, where a lot of the posters take themselves seriously. So basically you despise everyone here, and notably the ones who take themselves seriously. How could you have expected anything besides being completely flamed?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:49 (seventeen years ago) link

You took it as an insult that I expected a casual discussion of a subject that I thought was totally inconsequential?

souldesqueeze on Monday, March 26, 2007 9:47 PM (2 minutes ago)

You've gone from grappling with strawmen to grasping at straws.

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Are you the Questionizer? Did you finally decide to swallow your pride and register?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:51 (seventeen years ago) link

The most unfortunate thing about my former housemate M. Doughty is that his band was actually pretty good, which makes the task of separating his dumb-ass stonerisms from the wheat that much harder. On the other hand, before he hooked up with every aspiring poet's dream backing band, we pretty much dismissed him completely, and maybe we were on to something.

Since his own career as a music critic was defined early on by being called out as a nattering idiot by Oren Bloedow, I can understand his urge to take oblique shots at critics who actually know what they're talking about. Can't imagine why anyone would care, though, and I truly dread a future where people quote Doughty-isms as zen nuggets of wisdom.

― dlp9001, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:52 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought it was just a discussion board for music lovers, not necessarily critics (professional or otherwise). I didn't realize that the board was populated by such ilk, or I would have certainly thought twice. (Although the outcome would have likely been the same, critics in general being largely deserving of taking the piss every once in a while.)

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:52 (seventeen years ago) link

Probably not. Over the years I've come to appreciate the Questionizer.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:52 (seventeen years ago) link

glazing lawn gnomes?

― m0stlyClean, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Rope-a-dope

This is a full body game that will test your stability, proprioception and cunning. Get yourself a rope about 10 feet long and square off with your partner. Each person will grab the rope at about the one third position; this leaves about 3 feet of rope between the two of you. You can grab the rope with either hand or both, it makes no difference.

Now stand on one foot. The object of the game is to get your partner off balance. If you hop or step down with the other foot, you’ve lost the match and you'll have to start over. The basic strategy is to use some combination of pulling–as in tug of war–and letting slack slide through your hands. This makes it a yin-yang challenge.

Obviously, you can only do the slide trick so many times before you run out of rope, so you'll have to be wary; if you let the rope slide to the end, you’ll run out of options. Similarly, you should try to reel in slack whenever you can. As you will soon discover, strength doesn’t help much in this game; speed, abdominal function and whole-body coordination make the difference. Be sure to switch partners frequently. Everyone seems to have their own strategy and surprises.

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Souldesqueeze, no offense, but -- seriously, straight up -- the reason people are annoyed is that most of what you're posting is either nonsensical, blindingly obvious, or somehow both at the same time. I'm not even trying to be mean here. Seriously:

All I'm saying is that I don't believe in there being a heirarchy of opinion with regards to artistic media. People with a wider palate ... can parlay that background into a potentially more comprehensive perspective, but that in and of itself does not make their opinions any more valid than those of your regular popcorn moviegoer. ... No one's opinions should be taken as gospel; that's all I meant.

See, here's the thing: no shit! People have been saying this since back when people spoke Latin ("de gustibus non est disputandum"), and still say it, like, every day, just as a commonplace ("hey, there's no accounting for taste"). Do you seriously think anyone here disagrees with that? Do you seriously think anyone here believes Jim DeRogatis (of all people) is magically, authoritatively RIGHT about matters of taste? That we get up in the morning and go "man, I really like the Smiths, but ... oh crap, Christgau doesn't really like them -- how embarrassing, I was completely wrong?"

In other news, it turns out that not everyone can do every single job in the universe. For instance, we can't all be music critics, because who would, you know, farm, or collect garbage? So we've come up with this revolutionary system where certain people try writing stuff about music, and ideally, if they have interesting stuff to say, stuff that people enjoy reading, then people will ready their stuff, and maybe they'll get to try and do it for a living. Ideally. Not because they're "right," but because people are interested in what they have to say.

(P.S. just so you know this is how most art and business and jobs work.)

So those of us who aren't insane tend to be aware that music criticism is not really about being "right" or constructing the "heirarchies" you seem to think we all believe in. Normally we look to music criticism just to see if someone has anything interesting to say about music, and if we're lucky we find critics whose tastes we "get" enough that they're really useful in terms of figuring out if we personally will like something or not. And then sometimes, since all of us here like talking about music, we'll talk about what other people said about music. (This is called a "conversation," it's this thing where one person has an idea, and then other people comment on the idea, and then do this thing called "discussing" the original idea and their own ideas -- it's really cool and highly recommended.)

Like I said, this is all painfully obvious to anyone who's not being a weirdo, right?

― nabisco, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:41 (seventeen years ago) link

P.S. Also when we like or respect critics it's usually because we've read their stuff and thought (wait for it) "hey, this person has interesting things to say; I enjoy following this person's ideas and opinions."

― nabisco, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:44 (seventeen years ago) link

All right, that's cool. Well stated.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:46 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.altmanphoto.com/images_sixties/holding.hands.sm.jpeg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 02:58 (seventeen years ago) link

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