Why would anyone want to be a music journalist RATHER than a musician?

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they're songs - lost of songs do that...

words + music = songs
words written in journalistic context = journalism

i'm not being annoying for that sake of it, of course it's possible to include criticism in songs - but I don't want to write songs i want to be a journalist and they're two different things!!!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 10:52 (twenty-three years ago)

lots of songs do that...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 10:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Music can be music journalism too and it can be about musical critics.

Eg those songs of Kates, that Valerie song "Popstar", all those songs about the history of blues and can I be the first one to mention Guns and Roses "Get in the Ring" which is classic on the grounds of it's petty bitchiness.

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 10:56 (twenty-three years ago)

They are two different things! Writing and Music. However, you keep talking like writing and music can ONLY be combined in one form - music writing (I'll use this term, rather than "music journalism" or "music criticism" because some wiseass will always get on the thread and talk about how writing about music is not "proper" journalism, like the beatdown I got on this forum before...). When that's not true. You can also combine them in WRITING MUSIC.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 10:57 (twenty-three years ago)

What convincing examples

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:07 (twenty-three years ago)

What a necessary post.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Music can be music journalism too and it can be about musical critics.

No it can't and yes it can

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:15 (twenty-three years ago)

I wasn't meaning anything pertaining to yr post(s), Kate

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Can we get this straight, the two things we're talking about combining are:

1) music
2) writing (words)

are we only talking about examples where the writing is about other music, or about music writing or what?

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:21 (twenty-three years ago)

OK, sorry, misunderstood. What did you mean, Andrew?

Fair point that Valerie and Helen Love are possibly the worst arguments that I could come up with, but they were the first that sprang to mind. Were Billy Joel and Guns N Roses better examples?

Can I or anyone else (Momus?) come up with better examples?

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:22 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm feeling like Geir as I'm just not going to agree here no matter how many times you say something to the contrary... However I'll take this "They are two different things!" as a point we agree on... different disciplines... not the same thing... and I said the best way of combining a love of music with a love of writing = music jornalism... not combining music and writing itself, then it = music...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:24 (twenty-three years ago)

oops: and I said the best way of combining a love of music with writing = music jornalism...
combining music itself and writing = music...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:25 (twenty-three years ago)

and i still can't spell journalism...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Wouldn't a good way of combining a love of music w/a love of writing be playing music AND writing about music? I'm pretty dubious that the writing specific people here COULD be in bands, if they wanted to.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:29 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think I could (then again I've never tried) and a lot of people in bands/who make music are shit writers or probably would be...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:31 (twenty-three years ago)

not directed at anyone here, just a general idea..

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:31 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree! Also, this whole "music wouldn't exist w/out criticism" isn't something anyone who played would say.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Who is to say that the best expression of a love of music is not MAKING IT YOURSELF?

I make music - or at least, I used to - because I loved it so much I wanted to make it myself. Are you saying my love of music is less than - or different to - a music critic's love of music?

I think you're making artificial boundaries and judgements, Dave.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Who is to say that the best expression of a love of music is not MAKING IT YOURSELF?

No one... but if you happen to love journalism too the you probably want to be a sodding music journalist!!!! particularly if you find it a valid way of expressing yourself/being creative!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:36 (twenty-three years ago)

kate i reckon we agree on more than we disagree about and i know i'm being very literal here, but that's just the way i see it

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:37 (twenty-three years ago)

You are just trying to say "my way of doing things is valid and yours is not" and there's no way in hell that I will ever accept that.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:39 (twenty-three years ago)

no i'm not at all... i just happen to disagree...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Wouldn't a good way of combining a love of music w/a love of writing be playing music AND writing about music?

You need to add "listening to music" then you've got it.

And those three things are that's what you do Kate, right?

You will make music again, you know it!

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, I love writing about music, at least when I can do my love of it some justice (which is more often than I expect), but playing it is more important to me and harder to steel myself to doing... I listen every day, obv

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:48 (twenty-three years ago)

I could have written that Andrew :-)

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Rock on Mei

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:51 (twenty-three years ago)

i would rather be a musician. this is because PERSONALLY (and thats the key word) music reviews seem redundant to me. i tend to trust my own ears when i decide what records i buy. music can't survive without music criticism, but music criticism can easily survive without music journalism.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:52 (twenty-three years ago)

You are just trying to say "my way of doing things is valid and yours is not" and there's no way in hell that I will ever accept that.

but i do happen to think i'm right, as i'm sure you do, otherwise there's very little point in having ideas opinions...

and i don't play music - haven't in 12 years - but i listen every day and write pretty much every other... playing would get in the way of the others for me... thus i would rather be a music journalist as it's the best way to do the things i want, plus i'd feel i was missing out on something were i to be a musician... this is right for ME and will be different for other, plus I believe that musicians should NOT be music journalists in just the same as I believe people involved in the industry (PRs, A&Rs etc) should not be... an understanding of music is vital the act of being involved in a band throws uo far too many conflicts of interest...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:53 (twenty-three years ago)

and i know i'm going to get my arse kicked for that...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:56 (twenty-three years ago)

WHA... WHAAAA... WHAAAA...

That last half of your second paragraph just made me so cross that I can't even SEE straight.

I'll quote my Whoreton article yet again:

It's wrong to write about a band you have a *financial* stake in, but if you don't have some kind of *emotional* connection with a band's music, you shouldn't bother writing.

Musicians have MORE of an emotional connection with music, therefore they make more empassioned writers.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:56 (twenty-three years ago)

You are just trying to say "my way of doing things is valid and yours is not" and there's no way in hell that I will ever accept that.

WRONG WRONG WRONg and precisely what i mean!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:57 (twenty-three years ago)

oops!

Musicians have MORE of an emotional connection with music, therefore they make more empassioned writers

WRONG WRONG WRONG and precisely what i mean!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:58 (twenty-three years ago)

You've just invalidated every argument you've ever made with that "musicians should not write about music" bollocks so I'm not even going to waste the neurons arguing this point with you any more.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 11:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah and record collectors shouldn't be in bands, right?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:01 (twenty-three years ago)

it's not bollocks - i generally find musicians/djs/producers very dull writers and write from far too much of an "inside" standpoint to be really relavent to non-musician readers

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:02 (twenty-three years ago)

dave&kate: i'm going to invite you both round to mine and read you my earliest nme reviews accompanying myself on the bongos and noseflute, and what i like to call "scratching"

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:02 (twenty-three years ago)

hahaha!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark S, why that is starting to sound like SoundArt! I like it!

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Will there be ELVES involved?

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:04 (twenty-three years ago)

and vegetables (including peas, obv!)

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:06 (twenty-three years ago)

You've obviously never read the Diary of Mixerman, then, Dave.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Mixerman rocks!

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:10 (twenty-three years ago)

I meant on the dryness of music pro's writing, rather than on vegetative matter. Writing is a different skill to musicianship, as I've been the first to admit. They don't ALWAYS go hand in hand, but when they do, the results are marvelous. Or Marv Ellis, as the case may be.

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:10 (twenty-three years ago)

''Musicians have MORE of an emotional connection with music, therefore they make more empassioned writers.''

that may not be a good thing.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:11 (twenty-three years ago)

And this, which works BECAUSE he's an insider

http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

― mei (mei), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:11 (twenty-three years ago)

why not, julio?

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:13 (twenty-three years ago)

no no albini is an OUTSIDER mei.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:14 (twenty-three years ago)

You know, Julio hates passion like Ned hates fun. (Or whoever else ILX has decreed Hates Fun this week...)

― kate (kate), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:14 (twenty-three years ago)

passion is as judgement-impairing as dispassion (if that even exists).

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 12:17 (twenty-three years ago)

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