Once the Inevitable 90s Revival occurs which genre will be the most influetial or popular?

Senser >>>>> Calvin Harris

If by "acceptable" you mean "briefly fashionable for about a year in the 90s when the music press didn't have much else to latch onto". I'm not sure any of them, Rage aside, comes close to the impact of a Hail To The Thief, or Dizzee at his most political, or The Recession, or "George Bush doesn't care about black people", or even something like London Zoo.

i'm inclined to agree, but whether they did or not, they existed and they were covered and people listened to them. and yeah, these bands definitely played a part in making protest/political commentary in music deeply unfashionable (then again, isn't that what this thread's about?). most of them were fucking rubbish, especially in retrospect. but what's wrong with a bit of mindless rebellion now and again? is it time for this to make a comeback, or is it gone forever? we still get "angry" sounding music - hardcore and emo bands and that, but the anger is channeled through internal angst. I'd rather hear an angry band who at least pretended to make a statement about the world around them rather than the eternal navelgazing of most 2000s hard rock I've heard.

sorry, that was xpost to matt dc.

i mean acceptable largely as in actually hitting the charts (with The Levellers likely outselling RATM here at the time), that being a reasonable indication of popularity and cultural impact then. i'm not sure how you're measuring the equivalent effects of Dizzee (who its fair to say ppl aren't into for the 'politics'), net-based viral songs/memes and critical darlings like The Bug who clearly sold fuck all.

but what's wrong with a bit of mindless rebellion now and again?

why would it (have to) be mindless?

I'm not sure any of them, Rage aside, comes close to the impact of a Hail To The Thief, or Dizzee at his most political, or The Recession, or "George Bush doesn't care about black people", or even something like London Zoo.

These are good examples. Then again, aren't they slightly abstract? These are singular commentaries on current affairs, not a call to arms or what have you. The crustie movement wasn't supposed to be fashionable - so accusing the bands of being unfashionable is missing the point. Laugh at the crusties all you will (it's easy now) but at the time it was a definitive movement that bothered tabloid readers and people in positions of power. The 00s never really saw a subculture trying to go against the flow. And I think this is kind of an important thing in rock/pop - maybe this is considered a cliche in the 21st century, but I believe it's important for young artists to challenge the status quo, be it according to politics, fashion (e.g. Nirvana's dress style going against preconceptions of what a rock band should wear etc), or pretty much any factor. If there has been a rebel-factor in 00's music, it's involved a subtle integration rather than full-frontal counter-culture. I wonder if people are ready to be slapped int he face by subversion once more.

Hate to say it, but Pete Doherty ticks a few of your boxes

These are good examples. Then again, aren't they slightly abstract? These are singular commentaries on current affairs, not a call to arms or what have you.

god forbid political music have some nuance to it

The 00s never really saw a subculture trying to go against the flow.

I'm wondering what counts for you as a subculture? What criteria have to be met? Maybe this is just because I tend to get very overwhelmed by the way the idea of "culture" can be applied on so many different scales (anything from national cultures to the culture of a small business). Would a culture that only exists virtually count as a sub-culture, for instance?

Also, I'm not sure if it's meant to be understood that you mean a new subculture? Do you really think there were no subcultures around at all in the last decade?

okay, maybe by "subculture" read "counter-culture".

Doglatin I think the problem here is that you're equating "political music" with hippified counterculture, out-and-out anti-establishment sloganeering or just a vague sense of rebellion in the way you understand rebellion. Anything outside those boundaries just isn't registering with you. If you want that, fair enough, but I think most people have realised it's kind of clumsy, and there are better ways for bands to become politically engaged.

Xpost - Rev OTM. Give me "singular commentaries on current affairs" over going "rah let's bring down capitalism after we've finished getting twatted" any day. Also slapping someone in the face isn't subversive, it's about as direct as you can get.

Doglatin I think the problem here is that you're equating "political music" with hippified counterculture, out-and-out anti-establishment sloganeering or just a vague sense of rebellion in the way you understand rebellion. Anything outside those boundaries just isn't registering with you. If you want that, fair enough, but I think most people have realised it's kind of clumsy, and there are better ways for bands to become politically engaged.

Sure, absolutely there are cleverer and more subtle ways to do this. I'm not arguing for going back to bullshit faux-anarchist sloganeering, just meditating on whether it might make a comeback, because it seems that the softly softly approach hasn't done anything and that students (at least the ones I know) largely don't give a toss about current affairs because they're not being exposed to them in the right way.

Matt, the other thing is I can't think of anything that is politically engaging that came out in the 00s, save the odd sparse examples you mentioned upthread.

it seems that the softly softly approach hasn't done anything

what did the mindless sloganeering do? pray tell

i think the trouble is, your idea of "politically engaging" seems to be limited to SMASH THE SYSTEM UNK UNK UNK grunts - politically engaged, politically engaging and heavily politicised mainstream and non-mainstream artists aren't actually that rare these days

an example?

this is kind of derailing the original point of whether directly political 90s-style agitprop will make a comeback or not. again, i'm not saying it should, but that it might.

I for one eagerly await "Tubthumping 2"

I'll agree that dog latin has a point. Overall, "rebellion" as a theme among music in most genres doesn't appear to be as popular as it seems to have been in past decades. Unless it is done with subtlety these days it would feel dated. And I'm sure dog latin isn't against subtly, but if the theme is more blatant than the message is more pronounced. The more bands that treat it that way, the more clearly that trend represents that period in music.

"blatant then*"

an example?

Okay, Erykah Badu.

instead of listing artists, i'll just point out that you probably need to have been living under a rock if you haven't noticed how the past decade of US politics has galvanised many, many musicians into political actions or musical statements, from the dixie chicks to nas to erykah badu

haha xp

and in terms of political action i rate t.i. going round schools talking to kids as part of the rock the vote campaign, or indeed lady gaga and christina aguilera forcing themes and images of queerness into the very centre of society, way higher than the incredibly, dumb, INEFFECTIVE, pointlessly "rebellious" music you seem to be hankering for

hey, I hear there was this one woman who had a big hit that a lot of ppl liked and was a critics darling and had a bazillion post ILM thread and was agit-prop as fuck. can't remember her name tho.

in the 2000s, to clarify

La Roux?

Annie from Norway?

True Bush did really keep that theme alive.

you're all wrong. I speak of Katy Perry.

she brought queer themes to the v. centre of society by kissing girls and liking it

ah yes, critical darling Katy Perry, how could we forget

^_^

xposts

lex, i think you're missing the point. as i've said over and over, i'm not hankering for anything particular at all. also, i don't see how r'n'b artists visiting schools (altruisitc a gesture as that may be) equates to the same thing as a mass countercultural youth movement.

Calling crusty a "mass countercultural youth movement" is pretty charitable. And the countercultural aspects of rave are often overplayed.

meanwhile calling t.i. an "r&b artist" is just wrong, and did your eyes just slip past the numerous direct answers to your question re: political and politicised artists of the 00s without taking them in?

*sigh*

we're back here again where i end up arguing with matt dc and the lex about the same old things we've been arguing about for the last five years. shall we call this particular one quits, as it's straying very far from the original bit of this thread when we were talking about crusties.

the last thing i'm gonna say (i promise), is while it's great that popstars get up and do the kind of work lex mentioned, people do react to different stimuli, and if that kind of stimulus happens to be unhinged reactionary rock or dance with an explicit socio-political message, i don't see why this can't co-exist with more subtle acts. Certainly beats that crappy Live Aid reunion in 2005. And it definitely beats bands who have an angry sound and a directionless message. Music isn't going to change the world, but it can make people think a little from time to time.

and in terms of political action i rate t.i. going round schools talking to kids as part of the rock the vote campaign, or indeed lady gaga and christina aguilera forcing themes and images of queerness into the very centre of society, way higher than the incredibly, dumb, INEFFECTIVE, pointlessly "rebellious" music you seem to be hankering for

Madonna brought gayness (as in lesbian) into the mainstream in the "Justify My Love" video already. Not to mention all the openly gay male pop icons of the 80s.

Yeah, like Boy George and... um...

Jimmy Sommerville, for starters. Unlike Boy George, he even sung about it.

who the fuck is Jimmy Sommerville you crazy robot

(bronski beat, communards)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronski_Beat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communards

never heard of them, sorry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlpxOaQinE

.... Really?

hey what does "crusty" mean in the UK again?

like in the U.S. it's stinky punx that have tattoos on their faces and listen to bands that sound like inept slayer recorded in a 7-11 bathroom

but in the UK it's like techno music that wants to be Weather Report and everyone has dreads and shit?

As for The Communards, they weren't really all that large in the US. Probably because the lyrics were still considered controversial in the Reagan-era.

Erasure I believe also had some US hits though, and Andy Bell was never afraid to talk about his orientation.

Soft Cell and Pet Shop Boys were definitely huge, but I am not sure whether Neil Tennant and Marc Almond were really "out" back then.

kinda. but here it was linked with a "new age traveller" movement and interloped with several musical genres not just rave-based techno. it got a lot of media coverage between 92 and 96 but did seem to fade into obscurity post nu-Labour. xp

xp: IIRC neither was (Almond, Tennant; also calling Tennant a "heartthrob" is generous at best) (okay it is batshit crazy)

Erasure had 2 top 20 hits in 1988 in the US; their profile here was nothing like their profile in Europe.