Christgau, Chusid, or DeRogatis: Which critic is the most useless?

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Streetlights sizzle like bees

― rps, Monday, 26 March 2007 23:13 (seventeen years ago) link

If you don't like rock critics, DON'T FUCKING READ THEM!! You think I waste my free time browsing Robert Christgau's piece of shit website?

― Mr. Snrub, Monday, 26 March 2007 23:26 (seventeen years ago) link

yes

― m coleman, Monday, 26 March 2007 23:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Erm... bad english. Sorry about that. How do you "read" a rock critic?

Anyway, I hope you get my point.

― Mr. Snrub, Monday, 26 March 2007 23:28 (seventeen years ago) link

as always

― strongohulkington, Monday, 26 March 2007 23:32 (seventeen years ago) link

But he's a better writer about music (than you). That makes him more valid, o young one.

I disagree. It may have made his opinions more eloquently or cleverly expressed, but his writing skills bore no relationship to his taste. I can see what you're going for, but I think the argument is misguided.

I've got nothing against Lester Bangs. And I'm the first to admit that my own opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. The point is that any kind of artistic appreciation is wholly subjective, so criticism is basically an exercise in futility, no matter how much intellectual credence one may wish to lend it.

― souldesqueeze, Monday, 26 March 2007 23:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Christgau is the only person I've ever found who's as passionate about the Archers of Loaf as I am, so that alone endears him to me.

― bernard snowy, Monday, 26 March 2007 23:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Lester Bangs knew a hell of a lot about music and one might argue that he was an insightful thinker.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:03 (seventeen years ago) link

GRRRRRRRRRRR okay I'm sorry but I get REALLY sick of that fucking argument, and will not countenance it except maybe from well-meaning 16-year-olds who just had their MINDS BLOWN by the cool English teachers they're going to get their college-app recommendations from, or MAYBE stoned college freshmen just learning the wonders of the Stoner Solipsism Bubble, because at least that's preferable to their getting their Mind Blown Explanation to the Universe(TM) from Ayn Rand or Macro-econ 101.

Our opinions are subjective, no shit; if this makes talking about them an "exercise in futility," then you are claiming that ALL HUMAN COMMUNICATION IS POINTLESS, yes, no point sharing our subjective impressions and comparing them and being interested in other people's and maybe letting other people's subjective impressions influence our own, etc. etc.

And we know for a fact you DON'T BELIEVE THAT, because you've bothered posting to a message board and trying to communicate with other people, beyond which you're STILL ALIVE, and if you honestly believed in such a bullshit anti-human fake-logical position, you would be so much better off just killing yourself and not bothering the rest of us in our alleged Solipsism Bubbles.

P.S. All those caps are not just textual emphasis and are literally me YELLING AT YOU.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

"snrub otm!"

http://www.calvin.edu/news/photos/faculty/rooks.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link

I mean, WTF, is it the INTERNET that's causing this ridiculous explosion of Solipsism True Believers who go around bothering you and (of all fucking things) TALKING TO YOU about how communicating with other people is totally futile??? This is the most ridiculous, pathetic, and (if you SERIOUSLY believe it) patently evil position a human being could possibly take, and yet here go people thinking it's some kind of brilliant idea.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, he was also arguing that critics are full of themselves.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:10 (seventeen years ago) link

nabisco is yoga flame for all time

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:10 (seventeen years ago) link

"the musings of a self-proclaimed authority"

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:11 (seventeen years ago) link

http://cache.bordom.net/images/cb38cb5004473ea6ba5e8f8c2f602940.jpg

― NYCNative, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 00:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Don't worry, I'm not debasing the value of human communication. Jesus, people need to chill.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe in there being a heirarchy of opinion with regards to artistic media. People with a wider palate of a certain medium—by which I mean, those who have seen more films or read more books or listened to more records than the average person—can parlay that background into a potentially more comprehensive perspective, but that in and of itself does not make their opinions any more valid than those of your regular popcorn moviegoer. Even the most well-versed music lover has his or her own likes and dislikes, which are bound to skew their interpretation of a certain piece. No one's opinions should be taken as gospel; that's all I meant.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:09 (seventeen years ago) link

BRING BACK LOUIS JAGGER

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:19 (seventeen years ago) link

Let's face facts here—what M. Doughty does is generate mail.

― deusner, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:19 (seventeen years ago) link

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcmerritt/images/web/captain-obvious.jpg

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:19 (seventeen years ago) link

DAMN YOU PASSANTINO XXPOST

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:20 (seventeen years ago) link

"Jesus, people need to chill."

http://www.calvin.edu/news/photos/faculty/stapert.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:20 (seventeen years ago) link

Soulde, honestly the only person you're proving useless with this thread is yourself. You're spouting a bunch of cliched tripe about music criticism to a bunch of people you don't know, many of them music critics who have spent way more time thinking about this stuff than you have and have already encountered everything you're saying a million times.

If it's any consolation to you, new posters do this sort of thing all the time. In fact, I did it in some form by first defending "rockism" without really knowing what it was and then starting a thread where I was going to show all these 80s-lovers why they were actually wrong and the 80s were a crap decade for music.It's a little like sitting in on someone's second or third-year philosophy class and interrupting the professor in the first ten minutes by saying "But how do we really know anything?"

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:21 (seventeen years ago) link

It's a little like sitting in on someone's second or third-year philosophy class and interrupting the professor in the first ten minutes by saying "But how do we really know anything?"

This is one of the most otm things on this thread.

― max, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Damn, everything I'm saying is both clichéd and ignorant. Oh, but wait, it's okay, because other people have made similar asses of themselves here before. What a relief.

What percentage of users here get paid to review their mail?

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:28 (seventeen years ago) link

well I can only speak for myself here, but sometimes I soak the stamps 'til the postmarks come off and then reuse them

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Isn't it spring break? Go out and do something disreputable.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:30 (seventeen years ago) link

I really hate loan offers that are made to look like official documents from a lender you're already using.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks, but I'm long out of school.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:31 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks, but I'm long out of school.

Ask for your money back.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Thanks, but I'm long out of school
souldesqueeze, are you Paul Edward Wagemama?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:33 (seventeen years ago) link

Ned Zings: Rare but Mighty.

― g®▲Ðұ, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:34 (seventeen years ago) link

"Thanks, but I'm long out of school."

http://www.botany.utexas.edu/facstaff/facpages/mbrown/Mbrownhome/elaine/reflections/photo1.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Answer me this: do you take my opinions as a personal slight? If not, why such an outraged response? It would be easier to just ignore them than to fire back.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:42 (seventeen years ago) link

http://seriocomic.com/images/20050828122229_bored.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:43 (seventeen years ago) link

We're a little bored, souldesqueeze- it's easier to throw peanuts at trolls than to think of something interesting to say.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:44 (seventeen years ago) link

souldesqueeze, which is the bigger insult: that you started a thread here not expecting to get flamed (showing that you've clearly never read a thread on ILX), or that you got flamed?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:45 (seventeen years ago) link

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/15984/bored.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Hey, did I say to stop with the peanuts? I need to eat somehow.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:45 (seventeen years ago) link

Which is why, even though many of us have indulged in tearing down a sacred cow critic or two, maybe we've come to appreciate them for at least presenting an opinion for us to think about, as opposed to a message board newbie who's too cool for school.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:46 (seventeen years ago) link

the latter being an expression not necessarily having to do with actual school

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:47 (seventeen years ago) link

You took it as an insult that I expected a casual discussion of a subject that I thought was totally inconsequential?

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:47 (seventeen years ago) link

http://images.travelpod.com/users/darkstar/africa_05.1127286720.bored.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:48 (seventeen years ago) link

souldesqueeze is just lucky louis jagger went off the net today

ghost rider on Monday, March 26, 2007 3:59 PM

There's seven people dead
On a South Dakota farm
Somewhere in the distance
There's seven new people born

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Trust me, I have neither the hope nor inclination of ever being cool. But it's nice that you'd insinuate as such.

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:48 (seventeen years ago) link

Look, at least 30% of the posters here are either Robert Christgau or Irwin Chusid, and some of them are both!

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:49 (seventeen years ago) link

No, it's an insult that you went onto a board filled with music critics - professional or otherwise - and then dismissed everything they do in your title post. "I've always been incredulous of the supposed value of criticism, but I despise rock critics with a passion, most notably the ones who actually take themselves seriously." Of all the places to post this, you chose to post it on a rock critic message board, where a lot of the posters take themselves seriously. So basically you despise everyone here, and notably the ones who take themselves seriously. How could you have expected anything besides being completely flamed?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:49 (seventeen years ago) link

You took it as an insult that I expected a casual discussion of a subject that I thought was totally inconsequential?

souldesqueeze on Monday, March 26, 2007 9:47 PM (2 minutes ago)

You've gone from grappling with strawmen to grasping at straws.

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Are you the Questionizer? Did you finally decide to swallow your pride and register?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:51 (seventeen years ago) link

The most unfortunate thing about my former housemate M. Doughty is that his band was actually pretty good, which makes the task of separating his dumb-ass stonerisms from the wheat that much harder. On the other hand, before he hooked up with every aspiring poet's dream backing band, we pretty much dismissed him completely, and maybe we were on to something.

Since his own career as a music critic was defined early on by being called out as a nattering idiot by Oren Bloedow, I can understand his urge to take oblique shots at critics who actually know what they're talking about. Can't imagine why anyone would care, though, and I truly dread a future where people quote Doughty-isms as zen nuggets of wisdom.

― dlp9001, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:52 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought it was just a discussion board for music lovers, not necessarily critics (professional or otherwise). I didn't realize that the board was populated by such ilk, or I would have certainly thought twice. (Although the outcome would have likely been the same, critics in general being largely deserving of taking the piss every once in a while.)

― souldesqueeze, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 01:52 (seventeen years ago) link

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