Most shocking Rock & Roll Hall of Fame snubs (according to CNN.com)

waht

And just as a very obvious, mundane observation, I think it is more difficult to separate Alice's music from his schtick (or Kiss's, or Lady Gaga's, or anybody else wildly theatrical) than it is to separate Neil Young's songs from his schtick (plaid shirts?).

Roxy Music, Bowie, early Pet Shop Boys = all used schtick, wrote great songs.

I'm really and truly not anti-schtick...there's good schtick and bad (or at least tiresome) schtick. Don Rickles calling David Letterman a hockey puck: good schtick! Late Woody Allen, tiresome schtick. Alice Cooper? Well, I just lost the magic somewhere along the way.

AC's shtick is more reflected in his music than those other folks. There are chunks of Killer, School's Out & Billion Dollar Babies that sound like they're meant to provide background for the stage show, dancing teeth, whatever. They detract, on the whole.

Thank you! (Every 46 posts I issue a personal thank-you to someone who sides with me.)

I think it is more difficult to separate Alice's music from his schtick (or Kiss's, or Lady Gaga's, or anybody else wildly theatrical)

Why is it hard, though? I'm serious. Just don't look at a picture (or think about the stage show) when you're listening to the songs.

Kinda soured on AC, actually, when I saw him open for Heaven and Hell a couple summers ago. Looked tired, and there was a lot of woman-slapping going on in the show. Maybe he was trying to make a larger point. Dylan at least has the courtesy to do it offstage.

I'm channelling "School's Out" right now...trying...trying...just can't do it.

I mean, yeah, the best of the best of AC is really great. I was just saying that the schtick can get in the way of the songs, by lengthening them beyond single-length for instance.

Fwiw, I just wrote this about Gaga as part of a comment on Dave Moore's tumblr two days ago: "I guess it's just bothered me that people (both people who like her and people who don't) seemingly find it so difficult to separate her outward artistic affectations (which I'm still not particularly here or there on, though the 'Bad Romance' video is kind of a trip) from her music." It's honestly not a reaction I relate to. The music is over here; the image is over there. Guess I'm just weird.

I think Lady Gaga's schitck and her music are eisier to separate than Alice and his. I like schitck, on the whole. Rock stars should be rock stars. But they don't need to make side-long suites in tribute to West Side Story, you know?

YES THEY DO

(sorry, I really like West Side Story and think more things should follow its lead)

Which is a good time to mention that I think it works both ways. I finally saw Lady Gaga's "Telephone" video yesterday, and absolutely loved it. It all starts with the song, yes, but in this instance, all the bells and whistles made the song even more exciting. Can I logically explain why Lady Gaga's schtick worked for me in that context while Alice Cooper's doesn't anymore? Well, either it's because her schtick is newer, or else it's something I can't explain.

the fact that you're Alice Cooper.

It's easy for me to separate schtick if you didn't grow up with MTV, as I fortunately did. Madonna fer instance came to me as a radio, not a video personality.

fwiw i saw the Billion Dollar Babies show at Madison Square Garden, like, the day before my Geometry regents. Me & Alice go way back.

I'm pre-MTV too, but even when I heard "School's Out" on the radio in 1973, I'm guessing--I can't be sure here--I was well aware of Alice Cooper's image. And as someone who caught up with Madonna around True Blue (late, I know--blame Husker Du), and was a big fan for at least the next few years, I was cognizant of every "image makeover" as it happened. I didn't dwell on that stuff, but it was there, in the background. I don't really have a point here...

I noticed some Madonna makeovers, didn't notice others, probably could almost never have accurately told you what she looked like at a given moment if you quizzed me. As for "School's Out," I thought of it almost like "Happy Birthday," or "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" or something. An occasional song. Had nothing to do with this guy called Alice Cooper who I'd no doubt seen some pictures of but never really paid attention to; had to do with all of us kids at Our Lady Of Refuge, and it being June. As far as I could tell, that's how pretty much everybody heard it then. Same goes with "Eighteen," probably, to a certain extent.

Then we went to different schools...my friends and I were very much into the whole nine yards; whether or not Ace was from another planet was a big part of the appeal.

Well, I wasn't a music fan then -- just a baseball fan.

Anyway, weren't you more preoccupied with Aurelio Rodriguez baseball cards at the time anyway!? :)

Yeah. And I was also a dinosaur fan. I thought this one kid John Gallo's T-shirt seemed cool because it said "T. Rex" on it.

1973: a dinosaur fan. 1986: a Dinosaur fan. 2010: neither!

2010: A "D.I.N.O.S.U.R." fan! (Also a Dinosaur L fan, still. I even got 24 --> 24 Music for Christmas; it's great.)

Oops, spelled the Ke$ha song wrong. (Like the Dinosaur L one way better than that boring CD from a couple years ago where Arthur Russell wears a cowboy hat on the cover.)

I'd also like to post a correction: I begin and end the same sentence with "anyway," like I'm Paul McCartney & Wings or something.

One last thought, xhuxk...there's always one last thought. You kind of intimate above that I've committed some unforgivable breach by suggesting I've moved on from/outgrown Alice Cooper ("because if so, that's really sad"). Sincere question: how is that any different from, just to pick some random examples, moving on from/outgrowing Husker Du or the Replacements?

you're Alice Cooper.

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:29 PM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

clemenza i question your ability to either a) bro down or b) rock out

xp Well, I still like both the Replacements and Husker Du okay (at least up until they started making really dull records). But even when I loved loved loved them, I never thought it was because I was, say, 24 or whatever, and that by the time I was 27 I was just too old. (I said above that I'd moved on from lots of music, though; never denied that.)

I rocked out in 1977, I rocked out again in 1983, then I got tired. I haven't yet bro'd down, but I'm looking for a project this summer, so I may look into it.

I think "outgrow" doesn't just refer to chronological age, though; you can outgrow something emotionally, and--like you, I don't want to put words in your mouth--my guess is that you'd felt, by the late '80s, you'd sort of outgrown a lot of the music you'd championed in the mid '80s.

I think if those '71-73 Alice Cooper studio albums sounded as overdriven and fuzzed-out as that live 1971 Youtube clip I posted above, it would be easier for their appeal to translate to the musical landscape of 2010. I think their impact is muted a bit by "tasteful" production, at least on the clips that I heard.

I don't see how music in 2010 sounds less "tasteful" than music in 1971.

No, no - I'm just saying that nowadays people expect a different, crunchier guitar sound on "heavy metal". In the early-to-mid 70s lots of "heavy metal" still had a fairly clean guitar sound on record. Blue Oyster Cult is another example. When you compare the studio album to a live clip the difference is striking.

xp I mean, I guess there's way more swear words now. And metal got uglier vocals. So there's that. But if anything, I think music nowadays sounds a lot more reined in, less crass, than music did then.

And Clemenza, I just think my tastes changed, as I heard more stuff and had a wider context to put Husker/Replacements/whoever into. I mean, that happens with everybody, if they're paying attention, I would think. No way to avoid it. But maybe I misinterpreted your associating liking Alice Cooper at 12 with being 12 in the first place.

(Okay, just saw o.nate's answer.)

xpost There are a tremendous number of counter-examples to that though, see proto-doom thread-- guitar sounds were made in the early 70s whose heaviness and filthiness are rarely encountered today.

One of the things I think is really interesting about listening to Love it to Death in 2010 is that the music sounds like some carefully-crafted guitar rock that would be discussed on the Rolling Indie thread, with scratchy vocals and attitude you'd find on the Rolling Punk-non-Indie-underground. There's not much that resembles anything being discussed on Rolling Metal 2010. "Sun Arise" = some band opening for Animal Collective.

You did misinterpret...and the more stuff/wider context argument applies no less to my loss of enthusiam for Alice Cooper. For one thing, I discovered the New York Dolls (after the fact--I was barely aware of them in '73), and realized that they were doing some of the same things as Alice Cooper but a trillion times better.

xxxp

I'm not saying every band did this in the '70s. I'm sure it depended on the label, producer, etc. But I do think that if those AC and BOC records were being made nowadays, they would have likely gone with a heavier, more distorted guitar sound, just because that's what the audience expects.

too bad alice cooper and BOC didn't use horrible Line 6 pedals and Galien Kruger amps, i guess modern cats will never dig them

For one thing, I discovered the New York Dolls (after the fact--I was barely aware of them in '73), and realized that they were doing some of the same things as Alice Cooper but a trillion times better.

yeah they really improved on alice cooper band by being less creative, having way less range, worse songwriting, and being way worse players

and i like the NY Dolls but they really only made one good album and a handful of other good tracks, plus all their songs are exactly one minute too long

Think this was a conscious choice on BOC's part-- they were even being billed as the 'American Black Sabbath' and surely if they had wanted to mimic Iommi's nightmarish gtr tone they could have.

"Way worse players"--yes, I do believe you may be right there. They were also worse than Gentle Giant!

guyz this is what the rock and roll hall of fame does to us -- makes us start saying "this dude is better than that dude." ;_;
Alice Cooper and Neil Young are both great! I love them both!

Man, call in Rodney King.

xpost

of course now that you're faced with 5 classic alice albums and one and a half great NY Dolls albums all your fantasy baseball stats are out the window correct?

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