Most shocking Rock & Roll Hall of Fame snubs (according to CNN.com)

Like Rush the most, am most surprised about Chicago.

Don't know if this justifies it's own thread, so I'll post it here:

If the Rock hall of fame uses sales as one of its biggest criteria, what's going to happen 5-10 years from now when 'sales' becomes a meaningless factor? Are more indie acts going to get in as a consequence?

there's thousands of 60s,70s and 80s acts still to come for them to worry about that.

^ HA, yeah, I guess. OK, new question: what happens when Jann Wenner dies and people stop looking at looked-over 60s/70s acts?

Ha, Yanni was in a Minneapolis glam band with Cheap Trick's original singer and a live show modeled on Alice Cooper--closer than you know, love each other so...

http://www.citypages.com/1998-11-04/arts/from-flannel-to-glitter/all

i'd say Public Enemy not being in is the most shocking in that they seemed to fit most of the (unofficial) Jann Wenner/Dave Marsh/rockist critics' criteria: the critics loved them, their lyrics were "important" (as opposed to, i dunno, LL Cool J's or EPMD's), and they appealed to white rock critics whose dicks got hard for rock bands with a "message" and some sort of punk-ish appeal.

i'm amazed that Genesis got in before Yes -- esp. in that prog-era Genesis is nowhere near as good as prog-era Yes.

i mean, if yer gonna have ONE token prog band in the fucking place then why not have a GOOD one (like Yes or King Crimson)?!?

Yeah but Genesis went on to become Big Stadium Nice Band, Yes never did that. I'm guessing that's more what did it.

(and everyone's mum and dad likes phil collins, but I bet none of them have even heard of Rick Wakeman)

Based on his entry for "Bang A Gong" in The Heart Of Rock & Soul, Marsh seemed to prefer Bolan to Bowie, but the (non-Marsh-penned) T. Rex entry in the RS Guide didn't give anything more than 3 stars (for Electric Warrior.

― Tarfumes The Escape Goat

Actually, Marsh did write that (blue book) T. Rex entry. (Probably what you meant to say.)

Alice Cooper's greatest songs were, more or less, "School's Out," "Eighteen," "Elected," "Under My Wheels," "Hello, Hooray," "No More Mr. Nice Guy," "Ballad Of Dwight Fry," "Be My Lover," "Billion Dollar Babies," "Black Juju," "Caught In A Dream," "Clones (We're All)," "Dance Yourelf To Death," "Desperado," "Elected," "Generation Landslide," "Hallowed Be Thy Name," "Halo Of Flies," "How You Gonna See Me Now," "I Never Cry," "Is It My Body," "Killer," "Model Citizen," "Muscle Of Love," "Teenage Lament '74," "Welcome To My Nightmare," "You And Me," and maybe a few others.

You've got a long list of songs there, that much be true. Is every one of them the equal of the 12th-best songs by Dylan, the Rolling Stones, Neil Young, or the Velvets? I guess it depends on what the meaning of "is" is--for me, not even close. (Hi, Chuck!)

I haven't made lists, and don't plan to, but I'd be surprised if the 12 best ones of those (adding in "Only Women Bleed," quite possibly one of those dozen) don't match the 12 best by those other guys. Kinda unfair to expect Alice's #28 (or whatever) to match everybody else's #12, no? (Uh..hi Clemenza! But I'm slow and haven't figured out who you are.)

(Fwiw, I think either "Black Juju" or "Welcome to My Nightmare" would wind up #28 -- probably my least favorite songs up there. And no, those would definitely not be as good as Dylan/Stones/Velvets/Neil's #12.)

The #28 vs. #12 is a valid point; for me, though, any configuration of 12 from your Alice Cooper list doesn't even come close. (And no, I haven't made lists either--just intuiting.)

i'd say Public Enemy not being in is the most shocking

You can only get voted in 25 years after your debut record, so PE still has a few years to go. They're shoo-ins once they're eligible.

One last point. If you square off Alice Cooper against any of those people, I think he gets trounced at both ends of what Bill James calls the peak value/career value distinction: i.e., not only is Dylan's best song significantly greater than Alice Cooper's best song (whatever you think those might be), if anything the gap continues to widen as you work down to their 28th- or 37th-greatest songs (whatever you think those might be). I'd say a non-entity like the 5th Dimension even matches up better, in that they can at least throw up "Wedding Bell Blues" in the peak-value category, which I count as much greater than Alice Cooper's best song, and much closer to whatever Dylan's is. (No, I do not expect a single person on here to agree with me.)

Wrong. "School's Out" and "Eighteen" = anything any of those bands have done. (And when I made a list of my Top 100 songs ever for Radio On in the early '90s, I listed neither of those -- and nothing by any of those other acts, I don't think -- but did list "Teenage Lament '74." So there you go.)

And sorry, I love him a lot of the time too, but Neil Young probably doesn't even belong in the race.

Ouch--Neil belongs with anybody. Dylan, the Beatles, Jesus, Don Knotts, anybody.

xhuxk, is your Top 100 songs list online anyplace?

xpost

xp I mean, I agree that if you're talking top 50s, maybe even top 30s, Dylan and the Stones beat Alice, easily. I would rank both of them over him over all, sure. But by then, we're not exactly talking "greatest songs."

is your Top 100 songs list online?

No, I don't think so. But just for kicks, here's the Top 10. (Just remember this was a snapshot in time, though -- not saying I'd agree with all of it now. Just some of it. Also, I went with Top 100 singles I guess, not songs per se'. And a couple of the two-siders may not even have been technically singles.) Still:

1. "Gipsy Road," Cinderella
2. "Hot Stuff"/"Bad Girls," Donna Summer
3. "Let It Out (Let It All Hang Out)," The Hombres
4. "That's The Joint," Funky Four Plus One
5. "Williams Avenue"/"Valerie," Quarterflash
6. "Wipe Out," Surfaris
7. "Western Gangster Town"/"Rock Skate Roll Bounce," Trickeration
8. "Electrica Salsa," The Off
9. "Children Of Paradise," Boney M
10. "Living In Japan"/"Sing Another Song," Fun Fun

"Teenage Lament '74" finished #85.

Dylan, Stones, Velvets, Neil Young, Sex Pistols placed 0 songs total.

Boney M place 5 singles (totalling 8 songs) in the Top 47 alone. (Guess I was on a kick then.) When do they get into the Hall of Fame?

well they're disco, so never

Well, Abba made it, right?

(No, I do not expect a single person on here to agree with me.)0

^ Man, if you start applying SABR-metrics to music, there will be no more need for ILM

Abba aren't disco

We want the other 90!

What do you mean "we," Kemo Sabe?

xp Kinda agree, Tom (though Abba were sometimes disco, and Boney M weren't just disco.) But they were definitely the two Europop groups that ruled the Un-American planet in the late '70s.

Sometimes, yes, but not very often

xp Btw, speaking of Radio On, Phil Dellio once proved via Bill James formulas that Milli Vanilli were better than Dylan. (Had to do with Dylan having way more albums that were obviously worse than Girl You Know It's True than were obviously better.) So I'm not sure how much I trust SABR-metrics in general.

SABR metrics measure individuals largely for their capacity to contribute to team effort, so it would be an odd way to compare solo artists or bandleaders.

Man, if you start applying SABR-metrics to music, there will be no more need for ILM

I don't know--obviously you can't start quantifying the value of music through complicated formulas, but I've always thought James's peak value vs. career value distinction applies very well to artistic careers, whether it be music, film, or anything else. Peak value = Neil Young (Everybody Knows - Zuma)/Rod Stewart (An Old Raincoat - Never a Dull Moment)/Robert Altman (MASH - Nashville), career value = Neil Young/Rod Stewart/Robert Altman over the long slog. Some people are all peak value (X-Ray Spex), some all career value (the Police); people who are all peak value are invariably much more interesting than people who are all career value. Some have lots of both. Some--Brewer & Shipley--have neither. (I take that back--"One Toke Over the Line"'s pretty good!)

seriously why don't you just put a gun to music's head and end it

seriously

Come to think of it, I think a lot of the polls on ILM take the peak value/career value split as a given.

let's ruin everything with overthinking!

i'd say Public Enemy not being in is the most shocking

You can only get voted in 25 years after your debut record, so PE still has a few years to go. They're shoo-ins once they're eligible.

― kornrulez6969, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:31 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

oh, ok -- i thought that maybe there was something pre-yo bum rush which is why they were included.

Absolutely my objective in saying that Neil Young was at his greatest from Everybody Knows to Zuma--I want to ruin everything.

Thinking, generally, is not a bad thing.

So what is this Public Enemy single from before they were called Public Enemy that everybody keeps talking about? I can't believe I've never even heard of that before.

"Check out the Radio" by Spectrum City

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU6OKHU7fLo

btw I'm not against THINKING or discussing music actually

i just think bringing douchey fantasy baseball statistics bullshit into music discussions is a pretty poor substitute for actual thought

yeah i agree, 100%. overthinking--generally not a good idea

also clemenza i get the sneaking impression you actually haven't *heard* some of the classic alice cooper records and are just building up this house of cards faux mathematical thing as a smokescreen to disguise the fact that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

(xhukx - spectrum city was basically a mobile DJ thing that played parties on long island, was basically chuck d and the core of the bomb squad dudes, i think chuck just started rapping because that was becoming the fashion for the dj crews to have rappers)

Actually, Marsh did write that (blue book) T. Rex entry. (Probably what you meant to say.)

Whoops. I actually though someone else had written that entry. His Bolan praise in the 1001 singles book fucked with my memory of the blue RS book.

(I take that back--"One Toke Over the Line"'s pretty good!)

^^ you just be glad you put this part in

also clemenza i get the sneaking impression you actually haven't *heard* some of the classic alice cooper records and are just building up this house of cards faux mathematical thing as a smokescreen to disguise the fact that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

clemenza is actually Alice Cooper

Dylan has more homers but Alice Cooper has more stolen bases. Velvets lead in hit-by-pitch.

Mr Jiggalo: I've heard all of the songs Chuck listed, albeit not yesterday--should I have relistened to each and every one before posting? And, as I mentioned way upthread, I'm approaching this as someone who loved Alice Cooper back in 1973, when I was 12 years old. I just, kind of, moved on.

Milli Vanilli used steroids