Rolling 2004 Metal Thread

Well, the lyrics to that song are pretty sophomoric (but that really isn't important to me). But musically it's actually one of the only interesting tracks on that album.

"Slipknot make me itchy. I still can't really figure out if this is a good thing or not. Its probably just that monolithic in-the-red production that gives the music that sweaty, claustrophobic feel."

That's one of the few things I like about them.

Not that I'm against screaming, half the bands I listen to have shrill vocals. I just think that was the average Slipknot template on that album.

Well, different strokes...but anyway, I hate the idea of spending time debating the (admittedly dubious) merits of Slipknot.

Are you guys hearing a different mix of the "Left Behind" single than I am or something? the song, I mean, that's so damned catchy that I haven't heard it since the week it came out and I can still sing it from memory? and I have a really shitty memory?

I'm thinkin' out loud here about something that I've sort of thought-some-about rather than thought-through, so sc. grain/s of salt etc., but I'd say this: there was a point in the '80s when metal was part of the pop universe (Poison, Motley Crue, GnR) though this was also the exact point when the word "metal" started to get a little slippery (Venom, Slayer, Celtic Frost: do these bands have anything in common with their hairy contemporaries?). To my ears, the mainstream/chartmetal types such as those profiled by Spheeris (who were certainly pop bands) lost the battle: metal as I'd mean it now constitutes black metal, death metal, thrash & thrash revivals, etc., all fairly anti-pop both in the songs they write and in their cultural positioning. There's catchy metal that I still wouldn't think of as pop but is kinda pop-informed/pop-bearing (most power-metal to thread, esp. Nightwish & Kamelot, both of whom I love despite myself), but Slipknot seem to occupy a unique or almost-unique position (what are they to Korn, and what's Korn to them?): three minute hard-as-fuck (compared to what else is radio-ready anyhow: Linkin Park, say?) songs following a pretty rigid verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus-chorus structure. And with hooks, though they're hooks that aren't really enthuastic about being hooks.

So, no: not "if catchy = not metal." But! Slipknot-qua-entity seem more solidly a pop act than a metal band. I know Mike at Metal Maniacs takes all manner of abuse in the letters page over his support of Slipknot, and I suspect/guess that this axis is where the question lies.

But, again, I just like talkin'/thinkin' about Slipknot for some reason.

I find a lot of "hooks" on Mercyful Fate's "Melissa" and that's definitely not a "pop" album.

Here's the track-listing of a tape I made Anthony Miccio a month or two ago:

Side 1

Midnight Sun - Metal Gods
Heavenly - The World Will Be Better
Human Fortress - The Dragon's Lair
Angel Dust - The Human Bondage
Blind Guardian - Battlefield
Alice Cooper - Triggerman
Howling Syn - Black Moon
Hammerfall - Hearts Of Fire
Danzig - Wicked pussycat
Dream Evil - Save Us

Side 2

Dio - Killing The Dragon
Helloween - The Departed (Sun Is Going Down)
Freedom Call - Flying High
Danzig - Kiss The Skull
Dream Evil - Break The Chains
Star One - High Moon
The Kovenant - Star By Star
Witchery - Omens
Katatonia - Ghost Of The Sun
Katatonia - Sleeper

Not all power/symphonic, but all really really catchy!

RE: the kidz and Slipknot-my dad was working for child protective services in upstate new york and he had the same sort of thing to say about that bond between the kidz and Slipknot that John did.

Well, Slayer and Poison were both on the *Less Than Zero* soundtrack. And Venom's "Teacher's Pet" is more like Van Halen's "Hot For Teacher" than like anything by, say, Cannibal Corpse or whoever. And I always thought GnR's "My World" sounded like a Celtic Frost song. And Tom G Warrior was a fan of Poison's debut album, not to mention of fan of glam rock (like Roxy Music, for instance, who Celtic Frost covered). And they all had loud guitars. So...yeah. They do.

xpost

No, Motley Crue sucks eggs.

Slayer were responsible for such masterpieces as Reign In Blood, Hell Awaits, Divine Intervention, and Show No Mercy.

Yea, so Motley Crue sang "Shout at the Devil". Even that had glammy touches to it:

"HE'LL BE THE LOVE IN YOUR EYES
HE'LL BE THE BLOOD BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS
AND THEN HAVE YOU CRY FOR MORE"

Hardly the same thing as:

"Waiting the hour destined to die
Here on the table of hell
A figure in white unknown by man
Approaching the altar of death
High priest awaiting dagger in hand
Spilling the pure virgin blood
Satan's slaughter, ceremonial death
Answer his every command"

The first song almost has me think the devil is David Bowie

Plus, Slayer usually knew when to throw in an interesting riff fill or change it up a bit. They did grow more commercial and "pop" ish towards the Seasons in the Abyss era, though.

Oh, sure, it has some great thrash anthems ("Hallowed Point", "War Ensemble", "Born of Fire"), but christ, "Blood Red" and "Expendable Youth" might as well be the same, boring, Rolling Stones outtake...and even the title track is sort of boring.

Seasons of the Abyss wasn't quite up to the gold standard of the previous two, but it was still pretty great. They really seemed to be on an unbelievable roll at the time. I love "Blood Red". One of my favorite tracks on the record.

All those bands listed above have a lot of the same influences. Doesn't that give them all something in common.

Slayer were at their most templatic on everything Diabolus and beyond, and Seasons.

xposts galore

I mean if you want to nitpick, you can say "well they're all a form of ROCK MUSIC", but other than the stylistic points like the hair and the mascara, musically speaking I wouldn't put them in the same league.

"Living on a Prayer" is hardly "TO MEGA THERION".

I'm even hard pressed to call St. Anger metal, other than the title track. It seems more like garage rock.

that doesn't make them all the same thing anyway, though. A rap artist and a metal artist can both be influenced by Elton John and not sound a damn thing alike.

Hell Awaits is Slayer's answer to Melissa, by the way. I agree it's their creative high point, though not their most proficient moment.

The worst metal band I've ever heard, in any subgenre, is Wizard.

That's the spirit! Keep digging!

So all metal records must sound exactly the same? Okay, I get it now.

Sonically speaking, the two bands don't sound alike at all. Motley Crue were 'heavier' than they were later in their early days, but Slayer were a much more extreme group from the getgo, in that they were deathy-thrash in their early days, really gritty.

Song structure itself doesn't play into the differences between metal and pop since metal itself can be somewhat "poppy" in convention, but I wouldn't put Motley Crue and Slayer, given their body of work, in the same league whatsoever.

Note Slayer ditched the makeup and mascara after their first album and moved entirely away from that.

Of COURSE metal doesn't all sound the same. for fuck's sake, why do you think there are so many subgenres? Doom metal, goth metal, thrash metal, death metal, black metal, grindcore, progressive metal, industrial metal, power metal...and even then, there are subgenres of subgenres, like melodic death metal, industrialized thrash.

But I do not consider something like Living on a Prayer to be anything more than a pop song with loud guitars. Which does not necessarily make it metal.

xpost

If you think Slayer and Poison sound anything alike, I'd get your ears examined. They might share some roots, but they both branched off in completely different directions.

All metal is a form of rock music, but not all rock music is metal, just like all pediatricians are doctors but not all doctors are pediatricians

Slayer wore spandex in their early days, wore mascara and makeup, played classic rock tunes live, and sounded a lot different earlier on.

And I would never argue that they weren't influenced by NWOBHM, because it was a huge influence.

To reclarify my post, I can't argue that many of these groups did not share some or many of the same influences (though the second-wave bands may have been more influenced by the first-wave groups rather than the first wave's influences, if you get my drift), but that that in themself doesn't make them the same entity.

but you weren't arguing that, so...ok :)

>>Just punch up http://www.amazon.com and see what Warrant's fan base thought of DOG EAT DOG in the "buyer's reviews"...that is possibly the best heavy-guitar melodic heavy metal album of its entire generation. close to amazing. seriously. It of course came out it the hellmouth of the explosion of 1992 grunge crap-deluge everywhere, and so got buried; the band's manager died, their headlining tour tanked and was canned halfway through, the band splintered/broke up for a year...etc. There's probably a great unreleased Jani Lane solo album between the various (later) Jabberwocky and Lane-solo stuff that CBS eventually decided not to put out (he initially retained a CBS deal after the band was dropped in the mass purge of nearly all major-label hair metal bands, most of whom obviously deserved to return to the hellhole they came from).

if you are a hard rock/metal fan but don't own those 3rd and 4th Warrant albums DOG EAT DOG and ULTRAPHOBIC, your entire collection should be confiscated and traded in for Hilary Duff DVD's yesterday. I say this as someone who heard and loved it all first-wave heavy metal from ground zero, Sabbath in 1970-71 until "heavy metal" turned to formula crap within about a decade. For Warrant to cut a substantial body of truly great or near-great melodic and heavy melodic-metal during the nadir of idiot clueless poser hair-metal and speedmetal bands, was a remarkable accomplishment. (In baseball, that'd be called the "ballpark factor").<<

xpost

I'll admit I kind of jumped into this thread without really getting clearly where both sides were coming from.

The thing I said about chuck was not to imply that he didn't know anything about metal, but to imply that I did not know what he knew about metal.

Here's the thing with Slayer.

They ditched the makeup, mascara, and all that flash, but their music was also less weighty on the first album. It could be considered extreme for the timeframe, and had some dark edges to it, seeming to owe homages to Venom and the like, but it was pretty easy on the ears.

Hell Awaits, which came out not so long after, was a much darker, more extreme beast. It had some touches of what would later be death metal in it, and was much more sinister and dark. Reign in Blood was heavily hardcore influenced as well. They moved farther and farther away from the peers they're being compared with in this thread.