― Dave Bush (davebush), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 01:30 (eighteen years ago) link
i take your point about vinyl still being alive. i wonder, though, if bands think about it much these days. if a band was being smart it WOULDN'T since only crusty old freaks would be hearing it that way (or DJs, who have 0 use for track sequencing, anyway)
crossposts
― Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 01:32 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dr. Rodney's Original Savannah Band (R. J. Greene), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 03:04 (eighteen years ago) link
Kid A isn't an LP, though - it was issued as a double 10" on vinyl (same as Amnesiac). Pulling out my copy - the sides are
Alpha: Everything In Its Right Place, Kid ABeta: The National Anthem, How To Disappear..., TreefingersGamma: Optimistic, In LimboDelta: Idioteque, Morning Bell, Motion Picture Soundtrack
All of this is just making me want to put on Kid A for the first time in a long while. I will say, though, that much as I agree with almost everything said in this thread, particularly about the sequencing possibilities of having two "first songs" and two "last songs," it really falls apart with double albums. It's way too much getting up and sitting back down, but more importantly I think it's very hard to come up with FOUR different "first songs." Take the White Album, for example - I know every song on it by heart, but I couldn't tell you what side ANY of them are on, except that "Goodnight" is the last song and "Back in the USSR" is the very first. Whether "Piggies" is on the same side, or even the same record, as "Helter Skelter," I haven't a clue whatsoever. (All that said - "Dear Prudence" is in my mind the definitive "second song.")
Double LPs by '90s and '00s bands are often unlistenably sequenced because, composing with CD in mind, you end up with sides where there are maybe two songs total, and albums that as a whole could have easily been one-and-a-half-LPs instead of doubles, except that the long songs are all in the wrong places. I'm thinking here of The Moon and Antarctica, whose vinyl pressing is a disaster in many ways besides this. (The worst moment: the way the transition into "Tiny Cities Made of Ashes" starts up on Side A and then is simply cut off as the needle hits the end of the record.) It's all especially shameful because they seemed to get it so well on The Lonesome Crowded West, which to my memory actually has a completely different order to the tracklist in order to better flow for the format. It's also in a quietly unique package - two separate inner and outer sleeves, rather than a gatefold - which is neither here nor there, but I like it.
Props to Sleater-Kinney on The Woods, for just leaving side 4 blank rather than spreading all the tracks a little bit thinner and creating a superfluous side. They use the 4th side for a momentarily diverting screenprint of some tree rings, much the way Psychic Hearts has an illustration etched into the vinyl. This kind of shit may not necessarily be a selling point in itself, but it definitely beats creating a four-sided album for no good reason.
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 03:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 03:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― bendy (bendy), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 04:47 (eighteen years ago) link
"what happens to LPs which had difft names to their sides when they come out on CD?"
The first time I ever heard Grin's 1+1 album, it was on a CD, and I was wondering why in the hell they put all these mushy love songs towards the end of the disc. Found out later that the vinyl version was split into a rockin' side and a romance side. Just like those OLDIES BUT GOODIES compilations on Original Sound.
― Rev. Hoodoo, Saturday, 29 September 2007 22:41 (sixteen years ago) link
I've recently added a few records to my collection with one classic side, where i've just decided to stop flipping the record over:
Steve Miller Band - Recall the Beginning...A Journey from Eden: Side 1 is a bunch of retro pastiche throwaways, and then side 2 is like he suddenly sold his soul to the devil to learn how to write perfect mellow psych-blues songsHall & Oates - Abandoned Luncheonette: I found a beater copy in the dollar bin recently, and i'm not even sure what's on side 2, but side 1 is wall-to-wall jams and i can't stop playing it. My kids are walking around the house singing "i'm just a kid don't make me feel like a man".Bobby Hutcherson - Solo/Quartet: Solo = unique and classic, quartet = fine
Am i missing anything by not flipping these over?
Other examples of an entire skippable side?
― enochroot, Monday, 18 September 2023 01:52 (eight months ago) link
This is a variation on the same idea, but I've started skipping the second record from Fairport Convention - The History Of Fairport Convention. It's a chronological best of compilation, and it just so happens that Sandy Denny's vocals stop right at the end of the first record, so i've realized that's all I need from that set.
― enochroot, Monday, 18 September 2023 01:54 (eight months ago) link
ummm I don’t dislike it or anything, but I tend to eschew side b of discreet music
― brimstead, Monday, 18 September 2023 01:57 (eight months ago) link
TS: Black Flag's My War side one and its descendants vs. Black Flag's My War side two and its descendants.
― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 18 September 2023 01:58 (eight months ago) link
ELP's Tarkus is one of these, Side 2 just feels like a pile of bonus tracks that were cranked out in a couple of days. even though I kinda like 'em they also feel totally divorced from the main piece, it doesn't even really feel like a proper album to me
I also skip Side 2 of the first Roxy Music album a lot
― frogbs, Monday, 18 September 2023 02:02 (eight months ago) link
"Laughing Boy" on the Hall and Oates record is an interesting mysterious ballad.
I tend to eschew side b of discreet music
So do I, and I dislike it too! An unsuccessful Eno experiment. On the other hand, I couldn't live without "The BOB (Medley)" or "Chance Meeting".
Side 1 of Silk Degrees and side 2 of Tangerine Dream's Cyclone are forgettable, but I love the other sides.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 18 September 2023 02:26 (eight months ago) link
This feels like a chance to bring up something that I've heard, but have no idea if there is any truth to it: I've heard that back in the days of the LP, records would be sequenced so that the softer tracks like ballads would be sequenced to be near the end of a side for reasons related to sound quality. Is this true, or mostly made up?
― MarkoP, Monday, 18 September 2023 03:14 (eight months ago) link
that's definitely true, basically at the end of a side theres less space per revolution and the centripetal force of the needle increases, both which cause the sound to be more compressed, so if you put a softer/less dynamic track at the end it's much less noticeable
I think good engineers can get around this effect so long as the sides aren't too long but I don't know how good they were back then
― frogbs, Monday, 18 September 2023 03:18 (eight months ago) link
x-post
True (mostly). When you get to the inner grooves of a side linear resolution goes down as the inner grooves move slower across the needle than the outer grooves. A really good vinyl mastering engineer can mitigate some of this, but audio dynamics are still constrained. This page gets into the specifics:https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/vinyl-record-inner-groove-distortion-simple-explanation/
― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 18 September 2023 03:39 (eight months ago) link
There was a Strawbs record called Bursting at the Seams where the last two songs on side 1 had to be flipped for this reason, they've restored the desired running order on the CD.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 18 September 2023 03:44 (eight months ago) link
The beginning of the second side was the best because the band got to deliberately choose a track to get you energized for the second half.
CD era and beyond, nobody gives a fuck if it's track 5 or track 8
― Make the chats AI (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 September 2023 03:47 (eight months ago) link
I can't find mention of this anywhere, but I recall that some classical labels were advocating for classical LPs to play from the inside out so that symphonic climaxes at the end of a piece would land at the edge of vinyl where the highest fidelity is.
― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 18 September 2023 04:41 (eight months ago) link
There must be a lot of albums that were specifically structured so that the two sides were their own thing. Off the top of my head, Bowie's Low and Heroes work like this.
― Zelda Zonk, Monday, 18 September 2023 04:49 (eight months ago) link
Beach Boys - Today, basically
― Make the chats AI (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 September 2023 04:55 (eight months ago) link
Spacemen 3 - Recurring. One side each for Sonic and Jason
― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 18 September 2023 05:02 (eight months ago) link
xp second side of Surf's Up is utter perfection - i rarely want to put on the first knowing "student demonstration time" will appear.
― Western® with Bacon Flavor, Monday, 18 September 2023 05:46 (eight months ago) link
enochroot at 2:54 18 Sept 23This is a variation on the same idea, but I've started skipping the second record from Fairport Convention - The History Of Fairport Convention. It's a chronological best of compilation, and it just so happens that Sandy Denny's vocals stop right at the end of the first record, so i've realized that's all I need from that set.
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 18 September 2023 06:20 (eight months ago) link
Side 2 of
― lord of the rongs (anagram), Monday, 18 September 2023 06:27 (eight months ago) link
oops, pressed send too quickly I meant to say Side 2 of Neu! 2
― lord of the rongs (anagram), Monday, 18 September 2023 06:28 (eight months ago) link
I enjoy the sheer audacity of just playing the same recording at different speeds because you haven't recorded a side 2, not keen to actually listen to it though
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 18 September 2023 06:38 (eight months ago) link
OTM
― Monthly Python (Tom D.), Monday, 18 September 2023 06:52 (eight months ago) link
I had this thought some years ago, that if you're a hardliner about "listening to music as it was originally intended" you should actually pause the CD or stream of classic albums when a side is over, wait a few seconds to simulate the record being turned over, and then turn back on.
Lost opportunity during the CD era to make Authentic editions where each side gets a CD.
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 18 September 2023 09:10 (eight months ago) link
There's an AMM CD which includes a track of 10 seconds silence, included for precisely that reason – so you could program a pause and thereby simulate listening to the original LP.
― lord of the rongs (anagram), Monday, 18 September 2023 09:53 (eight months ago) link
Tom Petty: “Hello, CD listeners. We’ve come to the point in this album where those listening on cassette or record will have to stand up – or sit down – and turn over the record – or tape. In fairness to those listeners, we’ll now take a few seconds before we begin side two. Thank you. Here is side two.”
― Cow_Art, Monday, 18 September 2023 10:26 (eight months ago) link
― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, September 18, 2023 1:38 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
reading the history of Neu! it really doesn't seem like they had any other options, they just ran out of money and time so they had to cobble something together
Neu! 75 is another cool LP the likes of which don't really get made anymore, you've got the Rother side and the Dinger side, both of which are like great EPs
― frogbs, Monday, 18 September 2023 14:23 (eight months ago) link
I think it was The Whispers (maybe?) whose albums had a so-called dancin' side and romancin' side.
― henry s, Monday, 18 September 2023 14:28 (eight months ago) link
The Isley Brothers were the masters of this, as Ice-T explains in this clip:
The Game Has Changed.. I miss Solid Albums. 👊🏽 pic.twitter.com/KxO1qGLaZv— ICE T (@FINALLEVEL) September 6, 2023
― read-only (unperson), Monday, 18 September 2023 15:14 (eight months ago) link
Nice! I bet a lot of R&B artists did something like that.
― henry s, Monday, 18 September 2023 15:18 (eight months ago) link
was just listening to the sonny rollins album "brass/trio" where its a big band on one side and trio on the other, cant think of any off the top of my head by there must be a bunch of other jazz albums that do versions of that
― waste of compute (One Eye Open), Monday, 18 September 2023 15:29 (eight months ago) link
I have 3 Bohannon records on vinyl and they are all split up into a driving disco side one and a lush smoove jam side two.
― Judi Dench's Human Hand (methanietanner), Monday, 18 September 2023 16:01 (eight months ago) link
Now you mention it I virtually never listen to second side of Bohannon albums.
― Monthly Python (Tom D.), Monday, 18 September 2023 16:04 (eight months ago) link
Napalm Death did one better and had a completely different lineup on side 2 of Scum
― Make the chats AI (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 September 2023 16:04 (eight months ago) link
Christmas and the Beads of Sweat by Laura Nyro had different line-ups on it's two sides: the Muscle Shoals session guys (including Duane Allman) on Side 1, free jazz players (Alice Coltrane, Richard Davis, Cornell Dupree, etc.) on Side 2.
― henry s, Monday, 18 September 2023 17:14 (eight months ago) link
Henry Cow ran out of material for their second album _Unrest_ so they just did a bunch of improvising
and then there's this track from the cassette version of _Neil's Heavy Concept Album_:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyL1tOogHPY
― Kate (rushomancy), Monday, 18 September 2023 17:29 (eight months ago) link
I've heard that back in the days of the LP, records would be sequenced so that the softer tracks like ballads would be sequenced to be near the end of a side for reasons related to sound quality. Is this true, or mostly made up?Peter Gabriel resequenced So in 2002, moving In Your Eyes from the start of the second side to the end of the album. He apparently wanted it there in the first place but the bass of the track would have been lost there on vinyl.
― Alba, Monday, 18 September 2023 21:44 (eight months ago) link
I've read Todd Rundgren on this very subject, but I think I have it backwards. I thought that the sound quality was better on the first half of a side as there is more real estate there.
― henry s, Monday, 18 September 2023 22:51 (eight months ago) link
xpost Iirc that was the (questionable) justification given for "Silver Springs" getting left off of "Rumours."
Personally, I can't stand "In Your Eyes" as the last song.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 18 September 2023 23:38 (eight months ago) link
Are there any books of music criticism out there that are entirely about record sequencing, choices that were made on specific records, how the final sequence affects how we hear the record and the narrative/vibe/sound that emerges from it? Because if not, I kind of want us all to go in together on writing one.
― Lily Dale, Tuesday, 19 September 2023 03:16 (eight months ago) link
― henry s, Monday, September 18, 2023 5:51 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
had Todd said otherwise? feel like this is the sort of thing he knows about and yeah it's definitely better on the outer grooves. though again a good engineer can practically eliminate that, not that Todd could be helped much given he routinely stuffs 27+ minutes on a side
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 September 2023 03:35 (eight months ago) link
No, Todd had it right. I misread the Peter Gabriel post.
― henry s, Tuesday, 19 September 2023 11:32 (eight months ago) link
I'll sheepishly cop to this: when I'm listening to albums from the pre-CD era, I'll sometimes stick a "10 seconds of silence" track between side A and side B. Also useful as a reminder to take a few minutes break from listening if needed, to give my tinnitus-blighted ears a rest.
― blatherskite, Tuesday, 19 September 2023 20:40 (eight months ago) link
belle and sebastien added a 10-15 second gap between “sides” on the cd version of boy with the arab strap, maybe on sinister too?
― brimstead, Tuesday, 19 September 2023 21:30 (eight months ago) link