Bruce Springsteen - Classic or Dud ?

It's not a cultural thing; I mean for god's sake Motorcycle Emptiness might as well be Bruce Springsteen on a literacy trip in terms of subject, and I know Tom likes the song, and I believe Ned does too. Whether that particular statement was tongue in cheek or not, it's a tired excuse and reasoning, one usually used by the saddest of Bruce Springsteen fans, the ones who "identify" with his sentiments, seemingly losing track of the fact that BRUCE'S CHARACTERS NEVER ACTUALLY MAKE IT OUT. Some positive role models to rock out to.

The thing is, I think it's the voice and the earnestness, which was already said. The stylistic values of it....the basic cultural and escape sentiments, lyrically, of Motorcycle Emptiness and Born to Run might be very similar in tone, but the style and vocalisings are entirely, 100% different. Bruce has a very sarcastic bent, a very dark bent, lyrically, but his style of music softens the blow and sometimes people just don't like it.

And those people are wrong, incidentally :P

Nebraska is half good but doesn't deserve the plaudits it gets as the Springsteen album it's cool to like.

The rest is pretty much DUD.

Nevermind that Born in the USA was my first record not meant to be played on the Fisher Price record player (with the STEEL NEEDLE)

Nevermind Tracks Nevermind the fact that Born to Run is one of the best driving albums ever when your top is down and it's summer and the road between Ventura and home stretches out and empty at night with no cops...

Nevermind he has out Dylan-ed Dylan

Nevermind that he can outrage The Man as he pushes the dark side of life. (41 Shots)

Nevermind the line "The record company Rosie, JUST GAVE ME A BIG ADVANCE!"

Nevermind the Live box set, reminding us just how powerful he was

Nevermind Time and Newsweek

Nevermind Thunder-Fucking-Road

Nevermind The cover of Jersey Girl

Nevermind Tracks

Nevermind the MTV Unplugged set where he scrapped the entire notion of an acoustic show and just plugged in and tore down the house

Nevermind everyone on this list who called him a dud.

well, Bruce isn't *that* bad! ;)

La Bruce just collectively calls to my mind a stunted bastard vision of music that presumes he was the sole carrier of the 'spirit of rock and roll truth' that the Beatles and Stones 'started' in the sixties. A CLAIM I HAVE ENCOUNTERED MORE THAN ONCE, though thankfully not here, and happily never from the man's own lips either, at least to my knowledge. Without that rhetoric I would just shrug and ignore him for somebody more interesting, but with it, frankly, he becomes a very very useful target to kick against. Perhaps only a straw man, but one I wouldn't mind seeing go up in flames.

The boy has fallen off of late, but... I'm reminded of the Bangs article where he describes how he dismissed this Maoist band as sounding like Bruce, and the band replied "oh, good, the working class like that stuff" or something of the sort, and I'm reading this thinking -- no. no. no. The correct answer is "oh, good. Bruce fucking rocks!"

What I appreciate about Bruce is how he can capture the majesty of a major chord. How so many of his songs have the same progression, but you don't realize it 'till you try to play 'em yourself. How he can take gospel music and write it to a girl instead. And yes, more of them damn anthems.

I mean.. I know that anthems aren't an alien concept to the UK -- after all, The Who were full of them. But maybe British anthems are a different type a "get off of my cloud" or "sod off" type, more cynical and pissy than dreamy and wide-eyed. Maybe this is, after all, because America is The Big Country, The Great Bitch, et cet. Maybe to get America you have to get just how there's always somewhere you might go, maybe.

Along these lines, "Not Fade Away" which is a novel by Jim Dodge is a great rock road story, sort of like the lighter side of Richard Hell's "Go Now" or the more earnest(?) side of Bruce McCullough's "Doors Fan" sketch (on his album, Shame-Based Man). Yes. Get that spirit of the open highway.

I will say, though, that I do lack a car and have never had one. That might serve as a better explanation. ;-)

I wish I wasn't misinterpreting.

Inspirational in some ways. I have often felt that England needed a Springsteen, albeit not just a a copycat 'rocker'; I mean, someone who would write about all the lost and found small-town lives. But to be fair, I suppose there is already a UK tradition here: the probably Jarvis Cocker is a case in point.

1. they don't understand that he's actually not as "pro-america" as they might think he is

2. they don't have as close a connection to "old school" code (which includes "old school" rock)

3. they are mostly college kids on their way up to some office job or whatever that is removed (if not far removed) from the "underworld" (the "blue collar" or "real" world) to get the lyrical sentiments

4. well, and...sometimes people just don't like something 'cause they just don't like it

I, however, do not apply to any of those 4. For I actually do "get" some of the appeal of Bruce (albeit, it took my until my mid or late twenties to get there). Sure, his overly sentimental (downright broadway or maudlin) look at the working class can be a bit (or a bunch) too much. And sure, his music can be too simple and/or too derivitive. But, that's a part of the whole. Familiarity in both music and lyrics, is a large part of the appeal of his stuff (and those like him, ala Mellencamp, etc). He just had the concept to put nearly a whole career on the working class/blue collar life like no other has (not in such a wide reaching broad sense, at least - other than Mellencamp, but Bruce did it a bit better and first).

Classics:

Having said all that, 'Nebraska' and 'Ghost of Tom Joad' are the only two full albums that I would declare anywhere near a "classic" state of existence (with 'Nebraska' being the one clear-cut vote). Many of the rest of his 70's and 80's albums have some good solid worthy singles on them, but. I can't go so far as to get 'The River' (for example) anywhere near a "classic" nod. That one, in particular, I find to be overrated (though still having the wonderful track "Stolen Car" and the title track deserving of 'Nebraska'-like attention).

Anyways, I forgot to mention to huge (to the point of shadowing) element as to one of the why's (or why not's) of enjoy/appreciating Bruce. Which is: DRIVING. Cars and driving is such a central and/or reoccuring figure/subject in his work that...I can't believe I forgot to touch upon that (only after reading some of the others posts, darn it). But yea, I do LOVE to drive. Which also helps to explain the appeal of Springsteen (to me, at least).

*By the way, I do own that McCulloch album 'Shame Based Man' and...love it (some really funny stuff and one of the very rare comedy albums worthy of many plays - if not it's own discussion here on "I Love Music"...anyone?). Every single one of my girlfriends (one present, others past) hated it. "And if (after torching the stolen car) you can still hear the Doors playing...then you have become...a DOORS...FAN!" I'm not a Doors fan, however.

I hadn't listened to this record in a couple of years, but god, it still sounded great. Actually, I kept getting shivers down my spine when it was playing and it had me close to tears a few times (mostly on "Thunder Road" and "Backstreets.") Listening to this today finally settled an ILM debate for me: Music can never affect me quite as much now as it did when I was a teenager. No record I've heard in the last few years, including Loveless, has had as much affect on me as Born to Run did this morning, and I know it's not just because Born to Run is such a great album. This is a record that got to me when I was young and emotionally vulnerable in a way that I'm not anymore, at the age of 32. I still feel music very deeply and appreciate and enjoy a wider range of music than ever, but music doesn’t completely overpower me the way it did when I was 15. Oh well.

Springsteen is still a big classic, by the way, despite all the incredibly corny lines on Born to Run.

"candy's room" is the grebtest song ever written about being in love w. a prostitute when you sound a bit like david bowie

Is this a new genre? Cos that'd be fucking incredible.

I still love Bruce Springsteen. Put on Rosalita and you will see me go insane.

Yeah, new album is weak. Basically just an excuse for the live shows, though, which according to what I've heard remain wonderful.

Found this at the near start of the thread, dunno if Ned can be bothered to talk about it now:

La Bruce just collectively calls to my mind a stunted bastard vision of music that presumes he was the sole carrier of the 'spirit of rock and roll truth' that the Beatles and Stones 'started' in the sixties.

Odd, because Springsteen's own views are the exact opposite- he was always far less interested in The Beatles and The Rolling Stones than he was in Phil Spector and James Brown.

Though he always does look really tense and "real rock" when he performs.

It used to be such that every time I got drunk, the evening would end with me and a gentleman companion in the group deciding to put on Dancing in the Dark and imitating the Boss & Courteney Cox dance. This has thankfully not occured in a long time now.

Ah, to explain my sense further -- there I wasn't referring to exact sound (I hope) so much as the role he seems to be in. I don't like universal idolatry, but personal, and so much around Bruce is "my god, the genius is among us all again! DO YOU SEE!" insistence that just makes me hate him even more. Like I said above in that quote, I don't get the sense that he believes that garbage (if he takes Dave Marsh at all seriously, though, that's a pisser).

And as for the music itself, a lot of people love Phil Spector and James Brown. In my mind, that doesn't give them a free pass for their own efforts. ;-)

My only realization about Bruce recently has been when I finally heard Bat Out of Hell and realized I loved that a hell of a lot more than any Springsteen I've heard.

Just found out about this guy flying home between shows. That's wild. (Not to mention, environmentally questionable.)

Carbon footprints of the rich and famous. But he's 74, it's probably nice to go home for a few days.

Speaking of flying, some friends and I are talking about flying up to one of the Philly shows. I don't know if it'll come together, but I really would like to see him (at least) one more time.

going to see him for the first time in sf on Sunday. excited!

you are in for a treat my friend

Looks like he is loosening up the setlists, maybe 5%, throwing in some songs he hasn't played yet, taking the occasional request. Still mostly the usual, but I think he knew people were getting a little tired of that.

I think I'm going to try to see him again in Philly this August, depending on prices.

Some nice additions in Los Angeles last night, reportedly. And 32 songs, 3 1/2 hours! He's done this before, recently, one tour leg exciting but still relatively conservative, and then the next one loosening up, with more requests and surprises.

Bob Seger used to do the same thing. Play two or three shows, fly home for a few days, go back out. Metallica, too.

Zeppelin kind of invented the home-base method of regional rock band touring, as I understand it. Set up in Chicago, head out for a bunch of shows within a certain radius. This is not what Bruce is doing, though I think Bruce does fly home after almost every show. I meant that Bruce toured for much of 2023, took time off to get healthy, and now has returned to the road (for many months) reportedly reinvigorated.

The sound at the show last week was almost unbearably loud (forgot to bring ear protection which i basically always tote to a show). The horn section was just blaring and after 2 hours I was semi covering the ear most exposed to a speaker stack when they came in. But I am really happy that I went and jeez feel like we really got our money's worth. Band sounded great and was awesome to see those legends.

it's quite remarkable to see him in 2024 and consider that he is more or less 40 years past his live peak.

I love, for the boss' sake, that he has a "Little Big Man" in the band

Jim DeRogatis has been pretty upfront about how much he hates Springsteen, but apparently he said on a recent podcast that he was bullied by Springsteen fans when he was a teenager (mentioned just in passing while dumping on Springsteen's music). This sounds like mockery but I would've been like "Jim, if Bruce knew, he would've gone out there and stood up for you." (And he would've too!)

What does he dislike about Springsteen's music?

I've heard him give every reason imaginable and at this point they feel like empty, hypocritical reasons given how he'll gush over other musicians or records far more guilty of the alleged offenses.

Here's a sample from 2005:

"Write about what you know" is the first rule teachers give all aspiring pretentious writers. The problem with Bruce climbing inside the heads of these characters is that he has long since lost any connection to their blue-collar roots, if he ever had them.

If Bruce wrote about what he knows these days, the labor disputes he'd chronicle would be about the difficulties of keeping good gardeners and nannies and the demands for bonuses that those pesky E Streeters make at the end of his top-grossing tours, and the personal conflicts would be along the lines of him wondering if it was worth it to alienate so many fans and invoke the scrutiny of the IRS by backing that loser John Kerry.

And somewhere in this clip is a rant that devolves into a bizarre attempt at humor, picking apart how Springsteen's dressed and complaining how he's actually "from the suburbs" and would've been eaten alive in New York City (which is a bit strange when Springsteen spent plenty of time there when he was struggling to get established).

also strange because *not* being from the city has been a core part of springsteen's brand for his entire career. surely dero knows what (and where) new jersey is?

Dero's from Jersey City!

"Write about what you know" is the first rule teachers give all aspiring pretentious writers. The problem with Bruce climbing inside the heads of these characters is that he has long since lost any connection to their blue-collar roots, if he ever had them.

Everything about these sentences is abysmal.

The hell is "pretentious" even doing there?

Levon Helm did not actually experience the Civil War

Don't get above your rising] raisin'

some critics really do come up with strange convoluted overbaked reasons for not liking something when the truth is usually just “don’t like the tune or his voice”

Ya think?

If he's writing that in 2005, about the stuff Springsteen was coming out with in 2005, then I think there's a part of it that I agree with, but that "if he every had them" definitely doesn't sound like someone who knows Springsteen's work at all.

Like, I do think that Springsteen in his early work is driven not just by connection to his blue-collar roots but by a sense of having just barely escaped a particular kind of working-class life that seemed to be marked out for him. And as he gets older and farther away from that life, and more comfortable with his status as a rich man, he loses that driving sense of "this could be me" that I think animates a lot of his portraits of people broken down or frustrated or limited by working-class life.

It makes me think of Dickens and the blacking factory, and one of the fundamental differences between Dickens and Springsteen (other than all the obvious ones) is that Dickens actually did work in the blacking factory, and so that experience is a foundational trauma that never quite goes away. Whereas for Springsteen it's a source of survivor guilt but not something that actually happened to him, and so its influence weakens over time.

And I think Springsteen is at his strongest when he is animated by that sense of identification with his characters, and that he finds that sense of identification, very often, through his own anxieties and obsessions. There's a feeling of "what if...?" behind a lot of Springsteen's songs, imo. Who or what would I be if I had never found music? If I had been sent to war? If I let myself drift too far away from people and couldn't find my way back?

By the time you get to Western Stars, the central "what if" has to do with marriage, and connections with people, and age, and the fear of impulsively throwing it all away and ending up alone at the end of your life. But there's a period in between Ghost of Tom Joad and Western Stars where Springsteen is still trying to be the writer of the working class, and imo you can tell that his heart isn't really in it, that the working-class experiences he's writing about are no longer the things that keep him up in the middle of the night. So on that level I don't exactly disagree with that criticism, but it sounds like it's coming from someone who wasn't going to like Springsteen no matter what.

"if he ever had them," rather

Great post lily

otm I think Tom Joan is the last time he’s really persuasive in that mode, and even there it feels more like journalism than imagined memoir — like he’s done the research and is mustering substantial empathy as an artist, but he’s not drawing from any well of experience or first-hand observations.

lol Tom Joad autocorrect

Excellent post Lily. And tipsy makes an excellent point how Joad "feels more like journalism than imagined memoir" - I've grown to like that album, but it's probably no coincidence that the best songs (at least for me) were based on stories already written in detail elsewhere. I supposed "Nebraska" can be described as such but IIRC a lot of what's memorable and haunting in that song are Springsteen's own creation. A large part of the title track of Joad translates and even transcribes what Steinbeck wrote for his novel. Then there's "Galveston Bay" which is all drawn from a real-life story - I'm not sure if any particular lyric stands out for me, but it's a great story where all the details add up to something that's left a stronger impression than anything else on the album.

Yeah, the narratives on Nebraska feel deeply inhabited in a way they don't really on Tom Joad. Like whatever he'd tapped into on Nebraska wasn't quite there anymore, artistically, so he had to use other tools.

When more details about his depression came out in his memoir, it kind of suggested that Nebraska could only be a one-time achievement. IIRC, 1982 was about the time he really hit the breaking point with his depression, and a lot of that album really sits "comfortably" in the mindset of someone who's in a really dark place. If that's what it took to get him there, I don't hold it against him if he doesn't ever reach the same harrowing depths again.

I hear a lot of depression on Tom Joad, but I agree that Nebraska was the kind of risk that he could only take once and didn't dare try for again. It was written iirc before Springsteen had his big breakdown on his cross-country drive, and I get a sense from it of Springsteen sliding into depression almost deliberately, not trying to break his fall because to him, at that moment, depression feels like creativity. There's a kind of dark energy to Nebraska, a black light of empathy that feels very seductive. You listen to a song like "Reason to Believe," which is imo the darkest song on the whole album, and it's so charged with that feeling that can accompany the beginning of depression, that the world has been revealed to you as it really is, and that there is something special, something meaningful, about this revelation. Once Springsteen has his big breakdown, I think he stops leaning into the depression in the same way, but I do think it's very much there on Tom Joad - it just has a duller, more exhausted, more lived-in quality by then.

My favorite songs on Joad are the ones that feel as if they were written out of a depression that's if anything more entrenched than that of Nebraska. "Highway 29," "Straight Time," "Dry Lightning," even "My Best Was Never Good Enough" - there's a kind of dull, nihilistic noir voice to all of them that feels like it's probably picking up something very real about Springsteen's state of mind. I agree about the working-class Social Problem songs on Tom Joad - they feel like journalism to me rather than something felt from the inside. But then there's this other side to Joad which is Springsteen writing noir, with that classic noir theme of being so isolated from normal society that all your moral/ethical landmarks disappear and you become monstrous because there is nothing around you to keep you human.

Which can also happen in the deeper journalism, like In Cold Blood. Steinbeck doesn't go deep/isolated in the same way, but he tracks bunches of Grapescharacters, and not just the Joads, through hellacious migration---all those camps, communities of night and day, strange weather, that the reader becomes familiar with, never accustomed to (interesting to compare Woody G.'s "Tom Joad" with Bruce's: Woody had more experience along the Joads' lines, although, like Bruce, he wisely got his ass to NYC and least the fringes of show biz, through he spurned some opportunities there).
I wanted Bruce to drop the Popular Front approach and write about his and my father;s generation, The Greatest Generation as for instance Reagan Democrats, who had benefited at least in part from New Deal, Gi Bill, Eisenhower's construction of the Interstates, Military-industrial Complex boosting of economy------all that, and and then they turned against Big Government, in further contradiction, very selective "conservatism."
He eventually addressed some of that in the monologues-with-piano of his Broadway stint, I think, but maybe not in songs? I haven't kept up, sorry.

I meant, *proceeded* in further contradiction, very selective "conservatism," *through the rest of their lives and in the legacy/encouragement of some descendants.*

But there's a period in between Ghost of Tom Joad and Western Stars where Springsteen is still trying to be the writer of the working class, and imo you can tell that his heart isn't really in it

this may be true but it also gives me an excuse to bring up my favorite(????) springsteen song, “long time comin” from devils & dust. i mean he was doing a lot of character work at the time, it doesn’t all work or feel grounded in its setting but that one reaches in pretty deep imo

sorry that is a totally distracting sidepoint from lily's (as usual) excellent springsteen scholarship

No, it's not! and thank you!

Springsteen just cancelled some European gigs due to voice issues after having done UK gigs. Some tweets are saying he has Covid again (but that could be just twitter x)