julio i wasn't getting at you, i only said REM because they are the kind of group where press releases always talk abt "influence" as if it's obvious what's going and why: but it isn't
relationship is a MUCH better word: "stefan jaworzyn has a relationship with derek bailey..." and the reason for that is that you can't anyway separate the musical dimension from the emotional or symbolic or "political" or __________ or __________... Relationship is a better word because it is SO general that you are forced to the next stage (which is to try and describe it, and how it works, and how it fails). 'Influence" sounds particular but then turns out to be vague and general, except when you push the generality (eg are fans "influenced"?) it fails to be general enough. It enforces a built-in assumption abt how music works, which is (i think) a dull assumption even if true, and (i also think) rarely very helpfully true.
― mark s, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
the "frightened" line was a joke (sort of) (it wd be more obviously a joke if i actually DID GO THERE obv)
― david h(owie), Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
The example above i can see it a bit better. I like the use of 'relationship'.
i suppose whenever i see the 'i' word I'll just have to see if it leads anywhere or not. I think the paragraph above tells me a bit more than all your other 'rants'.
― Julio Desouza, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― ahab s, Sunday, 7 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
they have, the bedwetting goons.
― pulpo, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
for the record, I quite like the music when Jim shuts up. It's pity he ever said anything.
morrisey lyrics too?
how bloody depressing.
― Andrew, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
I do not register lyrics in my brane when i listen to recs but the bits i have registered are quite funny (maybe hearing the doors as comedy recs, as sens was jokingly telling me, might be the way forward).
Capt beefheart is the only rock poet i've heard (but is is rock anyway?).
― Julio Desouza, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ben Williams, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
I agree that when Morrison starts talking about snakes and lakes my interest level drops precipitously; however, to proceed from that point to a claim that Morrison never wrote anything but crap lyrics is unjustified. Some of his songs are very direct, emotional, and - dare I say? - subtle statements. "Soul Kitchen", for example, is a succinct and deeply felt evocation of a particular state of mind, and I think anyone who has felt that way can relate to it. Plus it has some great lines: "The cars crawl past all stuffed with eyes" or "Your fingers weave quick minarets / Speak in secret alphabets / I light another cigarette / Learn to forget". No doggerel there.
― o. nate, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand, Monday, 8 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
And I'm really sorry, but I find even the better lyrics you quote trite as all get-out. Nor do I find them bouyed up by the music. They may well be funny to some, but do consider they were truly meant to be taken seriously. If you are sniggering fine, but please admit that you're indulging in some ironic interpretation that admits the inate pretension of Jim's writing. Jim himself while he was alive definetely claimed to be a poet.Therefore it's quite reasonable to believe him and analyse his lyrics as poetry. And I reckon it's absolutley shithouse poetry.
― Andrew, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jim Morrison, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
This influence debate I don't really understand. The word covers conscious imitation certainly, but also unconscious regurgitation. I don't see what's difficult about acknowledging that aspect of the creative process.
― David, Tuesday, 9 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
Now, if you want outright theft of the Morrison vocal schtick, why not check out The Tea Party? As much as that guy claims that he's not trying to channel Morrison, I will never ever believe him.
― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
it's obfuscation pretending to be clarification
― mark s, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
"so what temperature is the baby's bathwater, mark s?" "it's spong!" "you didn't even check!" "that's what's so great, i no longer have to!!"
― OleM, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― David, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Julio Desouza, Wednesday, 10 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― dave q, Thursday, 11 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― bobbie shlep, Monday, 22 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ralph Johnson, Saturday, 12 June 2004 05:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Saturday, 12 June 2004 06:08 (nineteen years ago) link
I have kids?
Actually a pretty incredible thread, this, tons of good discussions and anecdotes both.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 June 2004 16:37 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 12 June 2004 17:58 (nineteen years ago) link
― fcussen (Burger), Saturday, 12 June 2004 20:15 (nineteen years ago) link
― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 12 June 2004 20:55 (nineteen years ago) link
Don't worry, you'll grow out of that soon.
― Vic Funk, Saturday, 12 June 2004 21:37 (nineteen years ago) link
― David Allen (David Allen), Saturday, 12 June 2004 22:13 (nineteen years ago) link
― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 12 June 2004 23:04 (nineteen years ago) link
as a recovering "Door-o-phile", the only things one can say about them in defense is that for a while, they were by themselves. no one quite sounded like that (or since, thankfully) or took thier own press as seriously. beatles perhaps, but, i roundly dismiss the beatles, being that SOMEONE would've done exactly what they did, had they not.probably the stones, but, even they would've done it better.
i guess you have to look at where music was at the time, ie-1967. i still think the first 2 doors albums are total classics! a few mis-steps, but, still very listenable and recorded within 6 months. only CCR can step like that. cream, almost.
musically, the doors were solid, but, didn't liquify into murky jams too often. there's a zeal to it all, too. a youthfully naive sound, like someone who has yet to fail. which they managed to do soon after.lyrically, i now cringe, but as a fella coming from metal into what i considered dismissable music (classic rawk) i was taken back by the lyrics. i can't say morrison was a god, or even that great lyrically, but he did (as was stated) hit some damn fine points in there. even if they're few and far between, they ARE worth it.
i guess the arguments against them far outweigh the fors'. because time and history have shown us the truth about the people involved and the mythology that still surrounds them, it IS harder to enjoy them as i get older. i still go back, but, it doesn't hold the mystery it once did. i'll be the first to admit, lsd did help, but ultimately i find i go back to the 1st+last albums the most.
the quicklist ranks=1- s/t or la woman2- strange days 3- morrison hotel4- waiting for the sun5- soft parade
runner up to albums is the live double disc, which has THE best version of "who do you love" evah!!!
― eedd, Sunday, 13 June 2004 14:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― gem (trisk), Sunday, 13 June 2004 14:23 (nineteen years ago) link
― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 13 June 2004 14:49 (nineteen years ago) link
― peyton, Thursday, 22 July 2004 20:01 (nineteen years ago) link