Jay Z/ Nas and other hiphop throwdowns...resurrected. Part 4

whats that logic?

But like I said I give Producers their props when it's GOOD! I can't say that about Dj Paul unfortunately, the crunk style beats don't connect with me as much... just my opinions and thoughts. Making beats on a Beat Machine is great, but don't confuse it with real music.

Trife thanks so much for proving my point about Lil' Flip! Of all the verses you could muster up to prove a point, you put "This is the way we ball??" Nice try, but when you rhyme multiple lines with non existing words, and also display the word capacity of 2 year old... (Boring, Snoring) you are considered a bad rapper in my book. I didn't even have to mention the fact the dude raps slow as fuck on their too. Freestyle King my ass! I never saw that nigga at Skribble Jam, Rocksteady or Blaze. I can name people at random who can merk that cat of the block.

By the way Qool, Moss is the man. Owens is a short Yardage receiver, he has no real break away speed to get past good defenders. His yardage mostly comes after the catch. Owens is in the short pass yardage west cost offense, so if you put him in an environment where the secondary can match his size & jam his ass on the line... he's not so invincible. As with Moss he's a down field threat on every down. Since he has that acceleration, after the initial jam he breaks off and it's a field day on the secondary. He's capable of putting up more points than Owens. When it comes down to it, I'm going for TD's not YAC (Yards after Catch). Bobby Bowden was very stupid for kicking Moss off the team. I wonder what could have been if Randy would have stayed at FSU & not gone to Marshall...damn! But it seems weed is the weakness of every black athlete. You could only wonder what if...

Oh yeah then you dis "meshing and combining samples to make a beat" but isn't that ALL PRODUCTION EVER!?

Finally, lil flip doesn't use nonexistant words, just screwed up ones. You think its shit when snoop and jay-z and every other rapper do it too? "Heavens above! 'Izzo' isn't even a real word! Those ignorant rappers and their meagre vocabularies will be the death of literacy in this great nation!"

As, of course, are you and Sterling, so.

everyone, i'd just like to note that james blount just said this.

Anybody heard the remix with Jay-Z to that Panjabi MC song? Beware of the Boys? That's my cut right now...

Anyway, it's Hillis "Ice Cold" 3000, ya favorite Thundercat! Got numerous topics to drop knowledge on...

It looks like Qool and Trife can call each other and talk about how wack Outkast and how the other 9,003,987,234 who dig Outkast are fools, and how you two actually realize the truth............ I'm lying. Whoa, copyright laws! I mean.......... I'm not telling the truth. Qoolout, your judgement of Kast seems to be solely based off their clothing in the videos and the two songs you've heard on the radio. You have said you usually dig it when rappers have a point, and generally dislike Southern music because they have no point and they rap about nothing. Of all Southern acts, Outkast speaks about the most relevant shit. And I mean on a Nas and/or Common level. "Growing Old" "Liberation" "Slum Beautiful" "Babylon" "Jazzy Belle" "D.E.E.P." "Git Up, Git Out" "Ova Da Wudz" "Mainstream" all have empowering messages and relevant lyrics. Of course, since you don't like Outkast, you probably haven't ever sampled these tracks, which is totally understandable. Now, maybe you just don't like Outkast at all, which I have no poblem with. It just seems like it's not actually based on their albums/music but more on some pictures in The Source from their Aquemini or Stankonia stage. And that's not an attack. I mean, if you ain't like the first 3 or 4 songs you heard by them, why would you go listening to all the rest of their stuff? And psychologically, you would probably go finding more reasons to dislike them, like we would all normally do. Now, Trife, I got your back 100% about DJ Paul. Personally, I like his/Three 6 beats. I'm a fan of Mystic Styles! I don't think he just presses buttons or uses a beat machine, but I do think he uses a program that actually have the instruments and drums presampled. Now he probably picks the melody and the baseline and snare, but of course he doesn't play each individual instrument. It's all computerized, so while I think that takes some talent, let's not mistake him for Timbo or Dre. But Lil Flip? How can you talk all this noise about Kast, then post The Way We Ball??? Now, like Sterling said, I don't mind the fake words and I actually like the song, but don't sit here and try to convince anybody Lil Flip has more than MINIMAL lyrical skills AND then say "its not as if stupid shit like 'outkast are real music with real instruments, etcetera, etcetera, are uncommon, so on and so forth..." I mean, if you ever look at the production credits you see credit for the bass guitar, piano, and other instruments. Not on all songs, but the majority. And Andre can actually play the guitar and other instruments, too. I mean, you can diss Kast, but don't try to play up Lil Flip at the same time. He's funny and I like a lot of his verses, but NOT because they are lyrically impressive. They're amusing. For example, on the David Banner "Like A Pimp" collabo he spits, "We make em swallow the nut, so follow the truck, Lil Flip and David Banner we got all of the bucks, and all of sluts..." LAMO! I was rollin, but let's not get crazy and start trying to compare the wordplay to Jigga or Biggie or even Bun B!

Qoolout, I forgot to also ask you why you weren't feeling Reasonable Doubt. It's the same as me not feelin Illmatic or Ready to Die, but I thought you'd feel that album, especially as a fan of Jay! You confuse me sometimes, playa... lol I mean, I guess we all have albums we just dislike even though everybody else might like em, so maybe you just don't like it. But what about classics like Dead Presidents or Can I Live? Those definitely have tight topics. And I dig the flow and beats, so I'm surprised you don't like that. Or what about the BIG song, Brooklyn's Finest? I also like Feelin It and Can't Knock the Hustle but they are kinda jiggy. And Ain't No Nigga is straight. But Can I Live is MUPHUKIN FLAMES, NICCA!

When I first heard Memphis Bleek, I thought he sucked. I still think he sucks. I liked him on Is That Your Chick and the Hey Papi remix, but that was only because I suspect Jay ghostwrote his verses or highly influenced them. I mean, on Coming of Age on Reasonable Doubt, him and Jay go back and forth on some SUPER GAY SHIT. That whole, "Hey let's ride around a while/I like your style/naw I like YOUR style/man I'll ride with you for free" is some RuPaul mess for real.

I ain't diss Busta. I think he's a tight rap act. I think Busta has come out with some classics, too, like "Everything Remains Raw" and "Woo Haa" and there are a lot of songs I like with Busta and by Busta. But as an MC? Nah, not really. I mean Busta has some skills, but he's not versatile. Like, that verse about Ja wasn't bad, but I ain't really feel the mean Busta. Like he said, he need to go back to his normal self and have fun.

Now, you've taken the Randy debate a bit further. I think you're a little too general in comparing YAC to TDs. I mean, there are different circumstances to both. I mean, a screen can get you great YAC, but all that is is a pass play turned into a run. Or if you catch a slant across the middle and happen to gain big yardage, is that really talented? I mean, concentrating on a deep TD ball when all the defender has to do is get a couple fingers on it to mess up everything can be just as hard as breaking tackles or having the vision to see how to get down the field after the catch. Or how do you say making a catch and then breakin tackles for a 40 yd gain is better than catching a TD pass goin out of bounds and managing to keep both feet in? I don't say either is better, but how does one say what is better? I don't know. Or how is getting wide open in the end zone for a TD better than catching a 5 yd pass on 3rd and 20 and somehow managing to get the first down? I don't know. To me, YAC may be better when you're trying to get down the field in the last 2 min, but if it's like on the 10 and we got only one play to score, I'd rather have a sure handed receiver who'll get a TD. It's all circumstantial.

Now your best player remark is intriguing as well. I don't necessarily think he is the best player, just the most imposing. He may not even be the league MVP (I personally say McNair or McNabb), but he definitely changes a game plan more than any other player. Now, me, I don't think you can have a best player in football. Unlike basketball or baseball or generally any other sport, you have different sets of players dedicated to defense and offense. And both are equally important. Forget all this nonsense about defense wins championships. TEAMS win championships. If defense won championships, Tampa would have 5 Super Bowls. And Baltimore would have 5, too. It takes a balance somewhere on both sides of the ball. That's why last year Kansas City sucked with their great offense and Carolina sucked with their great defense. Now add a defense to KC, a ground game to the Panthers and they're both undefeated! So after all that rambling, I find it hard to crown a best player. I don't think you could give it to a QB or RB - even though they are more likely to be an MVP. I mean, you gotta control the line of scrimmage with the O Line, your QB has to make good decisions, your RB has to see the holes, your WRs gotta get open AND catch the ball AND possibly get many YACs. Plus your team must close in the red zone. Then you gotta put out a defense with linebackers that can seek the ball, D linemen that can control the line of scrimmage, DBs that can run support as well as blanket receivers. And they gotta all get to the ball. And special teams can be crucial (ask Baltimore about Dante Hall and Tampa about all them blocked kicks). You gotta have leaders who may not be the best players. Football is the ultimate team sport, and every depends on somebody way too much for somebody to be labeled the best in football. Best at a specific position, sure, and maybe even on offense and defense. But on football? Nah...

And what do you think of TO's side explosion? And post game comments? I personally think TO has a right to be upset and the sideline explosion wasn't as bad as some people try to make it. But I do think he should have kept the comments about no heart to himself. Especially when he directed them at everyone but himself. He probably should have said he was disappointed and that he feels that the team will use this week to get better and all the united front cliches. Of course, then he could have went nuts within the 49er organization. But he does try harder and play with the most emotion. And you never hear about him on crack or rapin teenagers, so off the field he's cool. His on the field antics may ruffle purists, but I like him. SF would be crazy to trade him or let him sign elsewhere, but hey, they gotta do what they gotta do.

All right, I'm through educatin folk.

I'm out like Laverne and Shirley Coles. Peace!

Hey, I am literally laughin my ass off right now. Honestly, I looked at somethin previously posted and started laughin and I was about to start typin but I had to stop cause I had tears in my eyes! I just recovered from about two minutes of laughter from somethin H*WOOD said...

"Freestyle King my ass!"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

Hey, the reason it's so funny is that I can imagine the look on your face when you said that. After all your rantin about Flip, you come out of nowhere with "Freestyle King my ass!" HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!! I'm still rollin (on the floor laughin)! Make no mistake about it, I am definitely laughin with you! LOL

H*WOOD, you might even find it more amusing to know that Flip has beef with some other lame ass no name nigga about who is really the Freestyle King! But I forgot some things, plus saw a new battle come out of nowhere! Ciniblount, where did all this beef come from? Sterling, Ned, Gabbo?

I forgot to mention that Moss has had like 8 QBs and he makes them all look good. Jeff George, Randall Cunningham, Gus Frerotte, Daunte Culpepper, that other white guy from last year. Moss makes any QB look good, so the theory that he needs a certain QB seems invalid. Eric Moulds is straight. He's probably a little under Harrison and T.O. but he's definitely got skills. I bet Peerless Price can attest to that! And as far as the Redskins go, your argument for the Redskins is atrocious. The only reason they have the best record right now is because they've played one more game than everyone else in the division! And like I said, they're 0-1 in the NFC East. That's right, a big huge donut in the win column! And since when do we get hype about teams who beat 0-4 teams (Jets) and teams without their star (Falcons)? Weak bastards... Sterling, I think Dre sucks lyrically, too, plus I don't dig the first Chronic. But he has skills with production and his ghost writers are superb. And Missy can actually sing. At least, I think she has a good singing voice.

Somebody please define "hip hop" to me, because comments that Missy and Andre 3000 haven't done hip hop, or quality hip hop baffle me. Is hip hop a genre of music? Is it different from gansta rap, or rap in general? Who qualifies as hip hop? Who doesn't? Why? Who can define hip hop and be considered legitimate? Why? Does hip hop have to be accepted on certain intellectual levels? Is hip hop simply the anti-mainstream? Can a mainstream song be hip hop? Is 2Pac hip hop, gangsta rap, or both? Are there sub levels of hip hop? I ask because I think we all define it differently based on personal opinons and not any universal criteria. I find it hard to accept that Outkast is not hip hop. I think they would be insulted. And I think some of hip hop's heavyweights like 2Pac, Jay-Z, NWA, Snoop, Busta, and numerous others would be left out of some definitions. And that's just what it seems to me. I just think if you considered some of your definitions, then I don't see how 2Pac can be a hip hop artist by it. And if you think 2Pac isn't hip hop, then you're an idiot.

I'm out like hip hop. Peace!

Hut one, Hut two, Hut three, Hike!....

What up peeps? As a die-hard 49ers fan, I do kinda understand why my man T.O. was going off the way he was (5 receptions for 55 yards?). Niners SHOULD have threw the ball to him more, as Vikings did for Moss, but T.O should not have blown up on his teammates and coaches. Now, as much as I can't believe I'm saying this, T.O stepped over the line (I DO ADMIRE HIS PASSION FOR THE GAME). All I'm saying is that if coaches keep letting T.O. get away with his antics, the other players WONT have any respect for the coaches. I just don't want T.O to give the orginization reasons to get him traded, so he does need to just check himself just a bit. Rice was a class act (and still my favorite childhood football player).He never berated his teammates (atleast not in public, in front of the millions..............and millions of the fans screamin their name...NINERS! NINERS! NINERS!, NINERS!....oh my bad....just one of those Rock moments). Rice is not doing bad at all for a 40 year old. Rice all I want to say is...when u retire,.......please retire your jersey as a niner. When u get a ring, you really got Sanfran a ring. Thank u for the memories.

Miami Canes are still Number 1 in my book until a team really beats them (They got robbed in championships last year with a pass interference call that was more fully blown than a man with AIDS).Oklahoma is a "paper" number one team right now until someone beats them or the Canes.

Boxing, right now has more paper champs than an arts & crafts class

Can't wait for NBA season. Lebron/Carmelo is gonna be the next Magic/Bird rivalry. I hope Kobe won't be wearng a different number, but just like everyone else, innocent till proven guilty. T'Wolves (my fav team) got a squad this year to help my boy KG. Do ya remember Spree as a 2 guard in Goldenstate? Nigga what?. Cassell, Szerbiak (Never get his name right) and Michael Olawakandi and Earv Johnson (two big bodies that can atleast neutralize Shaq (That's twelve fouls between them to hold Shaq to fewer points a game). Long live the wolves. We might actually get past the first round this year. Anything less than a championship this year is a failure (That includes beating the Lakers).

Oh yeah, Hip-Hop.

Peeps in Farmington, Ct (where 50's new mansion is) aren't very fond of having 50 as their new neighbor. Farmington (a wannabe wealthy Greenwich, Ct) has this so-called high standard and they dont really like having trouble coming into their corny ass town. My boy who's a state cop was telling me that they got the city and state police administratives talking to 50's reps about the situation. I guess they're just warning them that 50 won't go unnoticed.............

Gotta get the special edition Scarface on DVD (I heard it's bangin and it looks just like a new movie).

Can't believe this but I heard that the Band album is hot!!!!(Bad Boy this and Bad Boy that!! Take that Take that!)

What up Qoolout?!

Hillis what up? I really am interested in hearing your opinion of the Band.

What's up wit all these dudes wearing pink?! Cam f'd the game up for real.

Gotta go. See ya when I see ya. One

"And I'm flossin every chance that I get/Walking around with your advance on my neck/ I'm demanding respect"--Banks freestyle

I'm out like Kobe's basketball future (Just playin Laker fans. We all know he ain't do it)

SHIZZIT! Everyone's back... except Back! Let me catch up with all this shit and post sumthing later.

Shoutout Ill Hill, Qool, Dolo, and Hollywood.

Its the return of the MACK baby!

Peace

Man, Qoolout, I don't want to press the issue, but I'm still not sure if you dislike Can I Live or Dead Presidents. I mean, I guess you did say that pre-Hard Knock Life was hard for you to stomach, so one could infer that this means that you do not like Can I Live or Dead Presidents. I guess I'm lookin for closure, because I still find it hard to believe that you of all people don't like Can I Live! That beat is superb and his flow isn't as high and fast as it is on the other songs, and it is about somethin. I'm tellin you, give it a re-listen and see if you ain't feelin it.

"...in college I had the misfounture of residing next to a die hard Outkast fan. Cuz played it all the time, the radio joints and the non radio joints and I didn't like them, it, and now I don't even like cuz..." - Qoolout

LOL!

Ok, you didn't say that Outkast isn't it hip-hop; however, you said you can't see what Andre 3000 has done for hip hop. If you admit that just about everybody you know likes them, how can you not see it? I may not personally like Ready to Die or Illmatic or the Infamous, but I can still see what they've done for hip hop. And I think your bringing their clothes in to judging them as hip hop is ridiculous! If you found out that Pac or the Kiss of Death wore the same clothes as Andre, you'd stop finding their music ill just like Will was? Hardly! They'd still be hip-hop... just with clothes you ain't like. I mean, I don't like the Dip set (Dip set, Dip set, Dip set, Dip set, Dip set, Dip set, Dip set) pink nonsense but I can't judge Camron buy that shirt in the Dip Set Anthem - or can I? Anyway, I just think hip hop should be based solely on the style of music. And even though Busta and Missy probably do writ their "raps" in 10 minutes, I doubt that has anything to do with their appeal. Their "acts" - i.e. their videos are either real tight or real funny. For example, Busta's "Pass the Corvoisseur" video was tight, especially with that scene from Harlem Nights. And Missy's videos are generally tight, from The Rain to Get Ur Freak On to One Minute Man to Gossip Folks. So even though they destroy the lyrical essence of hip hop, they do capture the style and commercial appeal of hip hop.

As far as Outkast's new album not being hip hop, I think that's far from the truth. Big Boi's CD is of the normal rap/hip hop genre, and as out there as Andre is, I think his roots/style is still based in hip hop. Even though the rap is minimal, there is still rapping and his topics still reside in the hip hop genre. True, the style is unorthodox and he is exploring himself as an artist, but still as a HIP HOP artist. Just like BIG on Playa Hata. Even though it's him singing and being silly, he's still exploring a side of himself based in hip hop. So even though it's not rapping per se, it's still hip hop.

Macka, you have had more returns than Michael Jordan. But Jordan at least stuck around a few years. You pop up, say what up, and dip for a good minute? What is the proverbial dealy, yo?

Joe P to the Dolo, I assume that Robert Parish throwback/Antoine Walker jersey line means that he'll shoot him and put a hole in his chest, making the "8" look like a "0" - Parish's number. Right? Even still, that line ain't THAT cold, is it? lol And Miami #1 until someone beats them? Please! What up with this Qoolout (ill)logic(al BS)? Miami ain't dominated nobody all year, and hasn't played worthy of their ranking yet PLUS Gore is gone! Not saying that OSU or OU are better, but don't play like Miami is proving itself to be the best team in the nation. Eh, H*WOOD? Miami is a pretender this year (well pretty much everybody is) and FSU or UT or VTech will prove it.

"Freestyle King my ass!"

I haven't heard Bad Boy Da Band yet, but I heard them on a radio station doing somethin in the radio station studio - so I'm not sure it was an official song. But what I heard was wack. The radio DJs were all on Puffy's nuts about em, too, but I was not impressed at all. I put Da Band right up there with Sheek's album. I must hear it before I buy it.

All right, I'm dismissing class.

I'm out like the Redskins will be in Philly with a ferocious L. Peace!

The only thing that makes me feel 1/4 of the way bettr about the Vols losing and the Tight Titans HANDING New England an easy victory is that the Redskins lost - to another NFC East team! You know, the division they run? Oops, my bad... the division they USED TO RUN? Now DallASS is on top of the division and that's a guaranteed L for the Redskins. The Redskins are second, technically, with ferocious Ls to the two teams they're supposedly ahead of. Wack ass Redskins.

I'm out like the Vols from the top ten (DAMMIT!). Peace!

ps Yeah Hill, my boys lost and our STORM on top was short like short people, but we'll be back, Jack.

Your light rain shower in the middle is still going on, son. And who you calling Jack??? Who you think you is, muphukin Ron O'Neal??? lol Dude, the Redskins haven't beaten anybody good! They got lucky against the Pats and choked against the Eagles. And who cares about the 0-4 Jets and Vickless Falcons. You're 0-2 in your division with a guaranteed L comin from DallASS!

I'll accept your challenge to go find where you said that Outkast wasn't hip-hop, if YOU accept MY challenge of finding where I said that you did! If you go back, you should see that I said...

"Ok, you didn't say that Outkast isn't it hip-hop; however, you said you can't see what Andre 3000 has done for hip hop." - H3K on 10/5/03

My only point was that just because you don't personally like a group doesn't mean you can ignore their accomplishments. At least, that's not a legitamate reason.

I told you and everybody in this thread that this album was not the album you should listen to if you're trying to discover Outkast. You have to know their progression from album to album to understand where Andre 3000 and Big Boi are going with Speakerboxxx/Love Below. I can honestly say that I enjoy "Hey Ya" as a video and a song. But that's because I know Andre 3000 and I know that'll he'll come with some off the wall stuff, but you'll enjoy it if you give it a chance. Which I doubt you did. First off, the video is lovely. It's set in the 60s and I find it hilarious. It took some creative thinking on his part to do that and he should be congratulated. That song may not fall under your stereotype of hip-hop simply because he doesn't rap, but I see it as a talented hip-hop artist being innovative and taking hip hop further. Lauryn Hill sings on her Miseducation album, but I would consider it a hip hop classic, rather than R&B. And Biggie's "Player Hater" is definitely a HIP-HOP classic. The other Outkast song is "The Way You Move" and if you don't like that song, I don't know what to tell you. The beat is tight, the rapping is tight, the hook is tight... if you don't like that song you just don't like Outkast and you might as well stop forcing yourself to try and see why everyone else does. Of course, you do refer to them as "clowns" whose songs are "BS" but if everyone likes them, wouldn't that make YOU a "clown" whose opinion is "BS???" Just a though...

Clothes have nothing to do with what makes hip hop. Rocawear and Sean John are clothes fashioned out of hip hop, true, but they're not much different from Hilfiger, Raulph Lauren, Nautica, etc. They don't make hip hop because the clothes worn by Run DMC in the 80s resemble nothing Jada and Jay wear, but they are all hip hop styles that changed with the times. And since you even admit that you'd like Pac and Jada if they wore the same clothes as Andre 3000, then you admit that the clothing is irrelvant. Of course, your point that you wouldn't like Pac or Jada if they RAPPED like Outkast, while amusing, was a redundant understatement. Kind of like the term "redundant understatement..."

I'll tell you now that you can't make a case for the NFL's best player, because there's no such player. At least not one with a reasonable argument. There's too many elements that go into winning football and no one player can be part of more than 50% of those elements. I'm warnin you, young, don't bring that argument up in here, up in here...

And while we're on football, what's up with Rush Limbaugh's bogus comments on McNabb? Of all the black QBs he picked, he chooses McNabb? Please! I agree that the Eagles had most of their success due to their defense, which is why they won with Detmer and Feely. But McNabb is a raw quarterback who can make plays with his arm and leg. I think his assessment (which if you didn't know, was that McNabb isn't really that good, but the media wants a black quarterback to succeed so they give McNabb credit for the Eagles' success when it's really only the defense) was legitimate, but there was no need to bring up McNabb's race. The media's desire to see a black quarterback succeed is some nonsense. About as much nonsense that the Redskins are the class of the NFC East. Those gays.

I'm out like Rush Limbaugh. Peace!

And about Busta... When you mentioned that Pass the C was about nonsense, I laughed and totally agreed with you. That song's lyrical value is trash times 3 million. If them ain't the two non rappinest, same ole hook singinist niggas in rap, I don't know who is. But doesn't Diddy write checks, not rhymes? Point being, them niggas lyrically suck, but that hook was tight and the song and video are hilarious. See, when you hear wack lyrics, you get disgusted. When I hear them, I laugh. I guess that's why me and other folks can enjoy Busta or Missy or 90% of DA SOUTH. Not everybody tries with their raps, which is why they can write them in 10 minutes. A lot of rappers/entertainers are going for tight beats and nice videos. And I can dig that as long as I am entertained or amused. That Pass the C video is hilarious. Monique as Della Reese in Harlem Nights had me rollin. I'm 90% sure you've seen Harlem Nights and find it funny when Eddie Murphy and Della Reese were fightin ("Oh you wanna hit people with garbage cans...") and that part in the video was tight. So in short, the son's lyrical value is doo doo, but IMHO the video was good and the beat is straight.

What's folks take on the Clipse? I hated the Grindin beat, but I kind of feel some of their stuff after that. Hell, Malice can almost pass as a poor man's Jadakiss on a lot of they stuff.

"Freestyle King my ass!" LOL!

I'm out like of bounds regarding Pat Ramsey's 2 pt. conversion pass to Lavern and Shirley Coleslaw. Peace!

Qoolout, again, I accept your challenge:

"Lastly, S Clover, if Dre from Outkast does have something to do with hip-hop I'm missin' it, but hip-hop embraces him for some reason." - QS on 12/30/03

I may have mixed up the words but I kept the gist of what you were saying. Now, I wanna know what Outkast fans you know that said "The Way You Move" wasn't tight! What, one Kast fan didn't like it so you embellished it to be "fans?" Cause all the fans I know - i.e. at least 10 - like it a lot. And I know more than 10 people in general like it. The song is good - maybe YOU don't like it, or 2 other people you know, but the song is tight. Second, your skill of making things seem a certain way don't work on me cause I see what you're doing. You can explain why you think clothes are a part of hip hop all you want; you're missing my point (or pretending to in order to change the subject). My point was only that Andre 3000's clothes have no bearing on why he is or isn't hip hop or if his music is or isn't tight. Now, you can ramble on and on about Sean John and FUBU and whatever til the proverbial cows come home. But your smokescreen is futile. My point was clothes don't determine if a rapper is tight - i.e. you'd like Pac or Jada in Andre 3000's clothes. In fact, you'd probably go out and buy some then! Or probably not...

Dude, I ain't tryin to hear your contradictory self talk about my judgement of music. Supposedly a song has to have a point to entertain you but you're a huge Jadakiss fan - Mr. Absolutely No Point himself. Well, actually, he has one point. D-Block is so tough thanks to Jada's ill flow and deftness with a gun. Now, I'm a Jadakiss fan because his metaphors and wordplay are ill, but let's not say he has a point. And then you liked Puffy and Scarface? Them niggas got no lyrical skills and no points! And you said "Pass the C" ain't good so therefore it isn't? Negro, please! Be honest and you know the majority of hip hop fans enjoyed the song and the video. I don't give a song a "free pass" if the video makes me laugh. I give it a free pass if I enjoy the production and Pass the C was one of the Neptunes' better beats. All I'm sayin is if you judge the song purely on lyrics then it's wack, but I don't think Puffy and Busta sat down and said, "These lyrics are tight" when they made the song. They probably said, "Let's bank off our star power and this tight Neptunes beat." And they did. Just because YOU expect a song to have ill lyrics EVERY TIME doesn't mean that the rest of hip hop fans have to rely on that narrow minded view! We can enjoy a beat, we can enjoy jokes, we can enjoy other things. And how is it that you can expand hip hop to find a way to diss Outkast, but throw that same expansion out for "Hey Ya?" If hip hop isn't just singing and rapping, why does the fact that Andre doesn't rap relevant? Well, it's not! Don't be bringing clothes and all this oter nonsense that doesn't have anything to do with music into a debate, but then convenienty forget it when that same nonsense works against you. "Hey Ya" is a hip hop song because it's a hip hop artist who made the song in the general style of hip hop. We'll have to agree to disagree about Lauryn's album. My judgement of music stays consistent with what I have previously said (i.e. a fan of production), while you supposedly need relevant points or tight lyrics or blah, blah, but don't like Kast, like Scarface, don't like Reasonable Doubt, like Puffy, like Jadakiss, don't like Ready to Die... Ahem. Where's the consistency?

In the future, bamma, if you're gonna try and bring up past events against me, make sure that you try not to do so solely based on memory because your memory is obviously not that good. I didn't miss the shot for Ether. I made it, but the dude on my team called a TO right before I hit it and we ain't have none; thus a technical preceded our ferocious L. Now, you on the other hand, have bowed out of tournaments with Team 3 and them other cats you lost with last summer fair and square. Ahem...

And another thing, you're right I don't care about flash. I like players like Shaq and Jordan because they dominate(d) when they want(ed) to and impose(d) their will at will. I like T-Mac because he carries a sorry team and constantly beats double teams. I don't care how. I like AI, not because he has a vicious cross or a nice J, but because he's 150 lbs, takes a beating when he scores 25 points against bigger, stronger giants and still gets back and plays ferocious D. I like versatile players like KG, Dirk, or Sheed because they have outside skills and a tough inside presence. You just like guards.

If you're not a clown with a BS opinion, just someone with different taste, then Outkast aren't clowns making BS - which you have referred to them as. They just have different taste.

Stop with this "best NFL player" nonsense.

Luda's new album came out. Well, I like it. Am I the only one? Probably not. Am I th only one in this thread? Probably.

Is this board dying again?

I'm out like all them folks that was just here a couple days ago. Peace!

Lastly, When Deion was with ATL and maybe for the year when San Fran won it all, he IN MY EYES, was the best player. He shut down his side onf the field as a back. He returned Punts and kickoffs ( I think his yardage record in ATL still stands) and cuz played wideout, and was better than any of the other wideouts. And If you recall, whenever the falcons got a pick, WHENEVER, they would pitch it around until they got the ball to him. On offense you knew he was getting it and they still could not stop it, kinda like Randy. Dag I gotta go

See, that quote was not picked at random. I'm bout to show folks that my debate skills are way strong. Minus the Now and Later gators...

For the life of me, I can't figure out why you keep implying that I said that you said Outkast wasn't hip hop (he said she said we sad they said). What do you mean you knew you didn't say it?! I told you that you didn't say it! TWICE!!! Did you not gather that I was agreeing with you? Is this some slick Qoolout debate trick? I thought I was clear about the issue, but honestly, I think it IS some slick Qoolout debate trick.

"I can't really define hip hop but I know it's based on not just music and rap, but on the way we/they talk and yes even dress. That's why I dissed those so called clothes that cuz from Kast wears. But hey, maybe that bamma dressing is a part of hip hop..." - QS on 10/1/03

Now, I don't have the luxury of actually discussing what you meant or may have meant from that statement in real time so I could only try and find the meaning based on the context clues. Based on those
clues, it seemed TO ME that you were implying that clothes could be a deciding factor on whether or not one is hip hop. I disagree. Now, it seems like maybe you were dissing their clothes and that was it. But like I said, the context clues point to something different. And if you're HONEST with yourself, you can reread that paragraph and realize that 9 out of 10 people would make the same connection, especially with how you have been dissing Outkast in general.

Again, it looks like we agree on something. Will Smith has done a lot of comedy, but not all movies he has been in are comedies. And if Pac went to Spain and did an opera, it wouldn't be hip hop. Now, if Beyonce did it, it would be a hip hopera... LMAO!!! Anyway, I said nothing REMOTELY close to that STUPID logic. All I said was that "Hey Ya" is a hip hop song. I said that it was a hip hop artist who did a song in the general style of hip hop. I compare Hey Ya to Biggie's Playa Hater. Big sings the whole time, but that is a classic HIP HOP song because he is not to be taken seriously for his singing, the subject is not to be taken in the context of R&B, and it was a hip hop artist bringing something new to hip hop. And TO ME, that's all "Hey Ya" is. A hip hop artist expanding on hip hop and doing a hip hop song. You said hip hop is more than "rapping and singing," but you try and dissmiss Hey Ya as not a hip hop song because "cuz doesn't even rap." So hip hop is more than rapping and singing, but not when it comes to Outkast, because you don't like them. That seems to be the direction of your argument if you ask me. I agree that hip hop isn't just music. It is slang, dances, and a whole lot of other stuff. I disagree with anyone who says clothes determine a hip hop artist or that certain clothes aren't hip hop just because he/she doesn't like said clothes.

Most people I know did like Pass the C, but that's irrelevant. I'd bet that the # of people who like is bigger than the # who disliked it, simply based on the airplay and billboard success.

I still think your best player argument is wrong, but at least you picked Deion. Deion definitely was a shut down corner with mad return skills, who could play wideout. But Deion was a good athlete so he could probably function as a 3rd option.However, Deion wasn't the only one who could do that. Plus Rice was in his prime (which is the one receiver he couldn't shut down), and so was Rod Woodson. Woodson was also as dangerous a return man as Deion. Deion was probably the better corner, but overall player? I don't know. Barry Sanders was also in his prime and he probably could have returned punts or kickoffs better. And even in mentioning all those players, I don't believe a strong enough argument can be made for Deion simply because in football there are too many different positions and skills to determine what makes who better. Deion was one of few who had the chance to play both ways, but most players in the league played both ways in their career, even if it was as far back as high school. I'd bet that Sanders could have been a good corner or Woodson could have been a good back, but in football there's no real need for someone to play both ways. Warren Sapp could probably play tight end, or offensive line, maybe even fullback. I hardly think Sapp is the best player in the league. Jevon Kearse or Derrick Brooks have the skills to do more than just play on defense. Brooks and Kearse could probably switch or even play in the secondary with their speed and strength. I don't think they're any better or worse than Sapp, just different. Unlike basketball, football has too many different positions and skill needs to say one skill is better than the other. Of course, since you're blinded by flash and Deion did play for the most overpaid, underachieving team that happened to be the Redskins, I see why that would fool you.

My memory is fine. Again, check yours.

"...look at Busa Bus. I'm not feeling him or Missy because of the actual words that are in the raps that they spit. It sounds like they just sat down and wrote the songs in like ten mintues and then it gets all kinds of radio play. That's why I hate his and her "raps." Seemingly, they took NO time in the "writing" part, and as a writer myself, that is what irks me the most." - QS on 10/1/03

So again, one can conclude from this statement, as well as your disdain for Outkast, that you DON'T just put an emphasis on simply the point. Of course, if that's not what you meant, you should work on explainin yourself better, Lucy!

I respect Scarface but his lyrical prowress is iffy. Go review YOUR history. And Jada rarely gets deep. And his songs do have a point. It's just the same exact point. D-Block this, ill flow that, I gotta gat, gun, glock, tec, mac, 9 milli, nina, hammer, biscuit, pistol, etc.

"I knew I didn't say he wasn't hip-hop..." lol Who are you trying to convince? Me? Or yourself?

I'm out like Lucille Ball. Peace!

I'm all that, & then some/
Short dark & Handsome/
Bust a nut inside your eye, to show you where I Come(CUM) from// --Phife (A Tribe Called Quest)

To be Hip-Hop, or not to be Hip-Hop... That is the question? Let me try to bring at least some clarity to this topic. Hip-Hop in its self is a spawned creation from R&B and other forms. It's no coincidence that even today with acts like Ja Rule, Lauren Hill, or Snoop. That barrier is jumped back and forth, from song to song. We could figure out some way to mesh music together, such as the examples Qool gave. Pretty much what I am saying, its really pointless to argue over categorization, cause one person will see it as Hip-Hop, another would see it as R&B. Besides that point, Hip-Hop isn't really a defining creation of its self. There is not a tried & true Hip-Hop sound. Think about it? You got all these damn categories now, Gangster, Hardcore, Acid (Yes Acid), R&B/Hip-Hop, Alt. Rap, Gospel Rap etc. Try to guess one of the first commercially successful rap songs?? Can't figure it out? It's a song called Rapture by Blonde, who was a well known 70/80's Pop group. The point is the barriers are unlimited, no matter which way you turn it. Hip-Hop embodies all music forms, there is no true Hip-Hop sound. Cypress Hill - Rock, Insane Clown Posse - Acid Rock, Lauren Hill - R&B/Hip-Hop, Eyedea - Alt. Rap, Atmosphere - Emotion Rap... I could go on for days, and I haven't even scratch the surface yet.

Moving on, to this sports thing. I agree with Hillis saying Miami is not the true #1, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. Not even myself being a Hurricane fan. With Gore out, and my boys FSU this week. It's not looking good at all. If they lose at FSU on Saturday, they not only get a L (Which kills a chance at the national championship). But they got Tennessee, I think November 8th. If they receive 2 L's this season that's gonna probably knock them out of the BCS Bowls, which means that top dollar money won't be going to the ACC next year. Nevertheless the season is shaping out to look like FSU vs. Oklahoma a rematch of the 2001 Orange Bowl, in the Sugar Bowl this year. I got my shotgun ready, loaded with my illegal hollow tip point, Rhino cop killer bullets ready to be fired at random on the Oklahoma Sooner football team as they enter the Louisiana Superdome... **Cough**But you didn't hear that from me**Cough** lol, just kidding.

Qool, you asked why ESPN hired Rush. Jimmy Johnson said it best... Controversy. They wanted him to say outrageous stuff such as that. You look at these news shows now. They mostly consist of these right wing conservative dick suckers to the republican party. and, since when has the republican party cared for black people, or better yet minorities for that matter. You don't have to answer that, cause we can all see what they are trying to do with Affirmative action. But anyways, back to Rush. I mean look at that whole set up, and it proves my point they was begging for attention. One White guy spiting opinions to two black guys??? LOL. That's about as colorful as this message board webpage... Black & White.

I'll get to that Clipse discussion later Hill.

Fast Shouts out to J-Dolomite, Macka, Qool, Hill, and all the newbies...What UP!