Yo P&J, I'm really happy for you, Imma let you finish, but ILX had the greatest 2009 poll of all time! All time! (2009 ILX Trax Poll Results: TOP TEN TODAY)

personable and also likeable! well done there, me.

but so it's not quite "marketing doesn't match the music", it's that she's got two different strands of marketing going on that don't quite match?

i'm very interested in where she goes next--like, ppl are already uneasy about "today was a fairytale" and i'll kind of lol if she releases another album and this is the entirety of her range

lol ie, not that important

For me, chords are way more important than lyrics. Which is not to say that I reduce songs to their chords and judge them on that alone (unless it's like a Chicago-style blues, and I'm like "argh, enough with the tired-ass 12-bar pattern"). But the song's overall harmonic contour (including the relationship of the chords to the melody) is a big part of what I immediately, viscerally respond to when I listen to music.

Taylor Swift in middle school:
http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/youngtaylorswift-500x333.jpg

it's been said already but never enough; when the drums come in on 'fancy' it's like a goddamn space shuttle taking off.

also: this thread finally got me to come around on 'so good'. uncensored version IS u&k.

"When you think Clint Black..."

http://oceanup.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/zoom/legacy/2009/02/21/taylor-baby-10.jpg

wait are we really posting photos of preteen taylor swift now?

so i'm the only person who likes the drums coming in on Fancy but finds it pretty stupid that they come in with only about 10 seconds left? k

so i'm the only person who thinks "Fancy" is the weak link on the album and that "Right Side" does tender better and the title track(s) do epic better?

^ I actually agree with that, but I wanted to vote for at least one Dream track and Fancy seemed like consensus pick on the voting thread.

that's sad imo, you shoulda voted for the song(s) you like best

^^^^

strategic voting in opinion polls ruin them

yeah if only a few people hadn't deliberately left My Girls off it could've been #1

misread that as GIRLS for a second and was about to be massively infuriated

some dude- Well, I was just going to vote for the album alone since so many of his tracks were nominated. But then I had room on my tracks ballot for him and figured I ought to throw him a vote since I listened to him so much in '09. I usually like to stick to singles only for my tracks ballot. But Sweat It Out was my favorite of the official singles and I didn't think that would place. So I tried to be strategic and vote for the one I thought would actually make it. Don't get me wrong--I love Fancy so I didn't mind going that route.

so i'm the only person who thinks "Fancy" is the weak link on the album and that "Right Side" does tender better and the title track(s) do epic better?

Nope.

some dude otm, for fucks sake a tracks poll is not the place to rep for your favorite albums

title tracks are good but nowhere near the best parts of the album

oh I don't think those are the best either -- really I like the uptempo pop jams best but I'm just saying even if I wanna hear the moodier stuff "Fancy" isn't what I go to

which is why "Rockin'" and "Take U Home 2 My Mama" were the ones on my ballot even though I knew there was no way the latter would place

yeahhhhh so taylor swift being fugly as a preteen doesn't improve her music to me in any sense. (I actually sorta like the song but #1 song of the year is pretty lol...regardless, the vote was v. close - are fewer people voting in these polls than previous years?)

just the opposite, thanks for playing tho

the song's overall harmonic contour (including the relationship of the chords to the melody) is a big part of what I immediately, viscerally respond to when I listen to music.

yeah definitely. and that's why i like all the chord charts you can find online, if i like a tune i think it's sort of interesting to go look at the architecture -- allowing that a lot of those are approximations, obv. sometimes it's just something like with "you belong with me," where it's a sort of well-duh classic pop progression (tho the fact that it's seemingly the exact same progression as in half a dozen other taylor swift songs says something about her songwriting approach and tastes). but with more complex songs it can be illuminating to see exactly which key change happens where, or what pivots or digressions it takes and how it resolves them. if i could read music, i'm sure it'd be interesting too to really look at melodies and harmonies. but the chord patterns and keys at least give a broad outline. and i know there have been whole threads about this, but i wish more music writing got into that kind of stuff more, because i'd find it educational.

so i'm the only person who thinks "Fancy" is the weak link on the album and that "Right Side" does tender better and the title track(s) do epic better?

some dude- Oops. I just realized I misread the first part of what you said here. I don't think Fancy is the weak link on the album. I do agree with the latter part of your statement though.

I'm feeling a little slow, but what was the actual placing of the Taylor Swift song in this poll? It looks like from the points (assuming that wasn't a joke too) that it was #2, and "Boyfriend #2" was #1 and everything else should move down one place. Is that correct?

oh OK -- i was pretty o_O at the idea that you voted for what you thought was the weakest track just out of support for the album

"Boyfriend #2" was a joke post, "You Belong" was the real #1 and "Daniel" the real #2

Oh, OK. Got it now. Thanks.

he probably won't see it but steve shasta OTM way way upthread linking to Scraper by Liquid Liquid as being a tuned percussion banger like Inflation.

so i'm the only person who thinks "Fancy" is the weak link on the album and that "Right Side" does tender better and the title track(s) do epic better?

― PLIES! PLIES! PLIES! PLIES! PLIES! (some dude), Wednesday, February 3, 2010 10:00 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i agree with this, but i didn't vote

i don't think "fancy" is a weak link per se, it's pretty great, but it doesn't blow my mind the way "right side" does, so i voted accordingly.

Good NYT piece on Taylor's loss of innocence and her challenges ahead:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/arts/music/02taylor.html?ref=music

Some pretty great posts on Swift. Just a few things I'd chime in on - -

I agree with this:

i mean for the debate in question i'd say that the ybwm video is more problematic than whatever happened to taylor irl (because honestly who cares?) because the video's idea of making her awkward is giving her big fake glasses to wear along w/her perfect hair and makeup.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, February 3, 2010 9:43 AM Bookmark

...especially the "because honestly who cares" - I'm not invested in the biography, I haven't read an interview, and until someone mentioned it above I didn't realize "Teardrops On My Guitar" (which just absolutely annoyed he hell out of me on a daily basis at work last year) was the work of the same person. So I don't really know what her star-text is to be honest, and I'm reacting basically to the song/video by itself and the associations it provokes. And those have a lot to do with:

yeah tbh that's mainly why i feel at an arm's length from her songs -- feels more like she's patterning her narratives off of romantic comedies than anything in her life

― PLIES! PLIES! PLIES! PLIES! PLIES! (some dude), Wednesday, February 3, 2010 9:37 AM Bookmark

OTM. Someone else mentioned that they could relate to the song b/c they'd watched a lot of HS movies. I'm a bit baffled by all the references to "specific detail" that makes the narrative seem more real - it feels so totally off-the-shelf. To me, anyway.

Lady Gaga is never an artist about whom you could say "this describes me life" - her (best) songs rather stake their claim on not possibly being by or about anyone else, they exist within her aesthetic self-construction.

I think this is going a bit far. I do basically buy your premise here - Taylor Swift is your best friend who helps you sort out your situation by reminding you of stuff you already know, and Lady Gaga is definitely NOT that. But I think the fandom for her is still more visceral than you suggest, for many people... if Swift is best friend, Gaga is platonic girl crush. People want to BE her because she's so COOL and gets away with doing strange and wonderful things that you are too shy and ordinary to do (until you go to college and join some burlesque troupe or whatever). The details of what those things are - the bewildering forest of her "aesthetic self-construction" - provide lots of interest and give you something to link to almost daily on Facebook ("Grammy dress! heart gaga").... but people think she's *awesome*, not just intellectually interesting, etc.

Besides, I mean, again setting aside star-texts just for the moment, look at the songs - "Eh, Eh" for example is almost completely lacking any arch-ness and irony, and the dress-up for the video is familiar imagery of hyper-Little-Italy-land, about as elaborate as Swift putting on nerd glasses. The narrative is a completely straightforward romantic situation - she had a nice romance going, met somebody else, is excited about this somebody else, and is still kinda bittersweet about having to say goodbye to the other person. That story is WELL-worn, lyrics aren't anything to write home about... but I'll go ahead and say that it feels more real and relatable to me than the Swift songs. The song didn't chart and this isn't the thread for it, but for me it's all in the title/hook - there's a lot of lived experience packed into those dismissive "Eh"s that just clicks with me. I've been there.

Or "Pokerface," which I dunno if this got run into the ground upthread, but this is a song about pretending to enjoy sex when it's kinda ehh and you'd rather be with someone else. (A woman, it turns out, but that's not heavily implied in the lyrics.) Not saying Swift has to write songs about fucking to get a "serious songwriter" pass - just that I think a lot of people who like this song like it because it's an experience they can very directly relate to. Plenty more may like it just because of the great chorus and the funny pu-pu-pu-poker face hook (that's where I got on board anyway) but the material is a TOTAL "real life" situation.

OK, I'm ILXing straight through breakfast hour..when I get back I fully expect five hundred posts on the Black Eyed Peas to have pushed this hopeless ramble completely off the page!

I love "Fancy" but listening to it w/o leading right into "Right Side of my Brain" sounds like absolute torture. Those two are just inseparable to me.

sory Doc, I think instead we're gonna argue some more about Joanna Newsom

...and from 2-2:30, aerobics w/vampire weekend

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/02/02/arts/02taylor_CA0/articleLarge.jpg
<3

tbh they're asking for that to happen when they ask the big winner to pose w/ all the statuettes at once -- at least give 'em a table to stand behind or somethin

although if i was ever up for that many awards at an event like that, i'd spend weeks mastering the art of juggling, so i could totally blow everyone's minds at the press conference photo op

Lady Gaga is never an artist about whom you could say "this describes me life" - her (best) songs rather stake their claim on not possibly being by or about anyone else, they exist within her aesthetic self-construction.

i missed this but imo it's totally wacky--a tune like "just dance" is about a generic/universalist going out and partying thing that is supposed to appeal to everyone but really just reminds me of suburban girls going to tacky downtown bars.

kind of lolling btw at Ke$ha's blatant "Just Dance" imitation "Tik Tok"

Just catching up. A few thoughts on various things:

Re: 'Fancy'

It's not a weak link at all, but I also think it needs 'Right Side of My Brain'. I guess I'm just a fan of payoff and that's why I voted for the latter. This is similar to a Four Horseman-->I'm Not Down situation.

Re: voices

Agree that it's not really about idiosyncratic voices. The Lykke Li thing is a great example. I really didn't care for her album, but in the right context, the affected voice worked really well (specifically in Kleerup's "Until We Bleed", which is phenomenal).

Re: Taylor and her media presentation.

I think ragging on a young pop star for her media presentation is a bit silly. She's being marketed by a record company, so of course they'll doll her up and give her the token nerd glasses because that's what America does. It's a bit like not wanting to see a movie based on a trailer, which is pretty stupid imo.

In regards to her lyrics, I think whatever she intended to get across isn't as important as what I take from her songs. 'Love Story' still has a tragic ending imo, and all the passive-aggressive stuff in 'YBWM' is an interesting insight into the character/persona/whatever. I haven't heard an artist reveal so much about the teenage psyche in a long time. (Avril as inspirational etc... OTM upthread) Whether you care about the teenage psyche is another matter, but it's interesting to me.

It's a bit like not wanting to see a movie based on a trailer, which is pretty stupid imo.

how the hell is this stupid

Like, isn't that the entire purpose of a trailer? To make you want to see a movie? If you find nothing attractive or interesting about the trailer, why on Earth would you feel any obligation or desire to see the movie?

okay, stupid is harsh. I get that it's a necessary evil, but trailers are made by marketing firms separate from the filmmakers most of the time, and they're designed to highlight the most populist/marketable aspects of a film. e.g. Master and Commander is far more than Russel Crowe shouting and staring at exotic women but you wouldn't know that from the trailer.

trailers often willfully misrepresent a film just to get people to go see it. on top of that, there's the whole 'not what movie's about but how it's about it' thing.

yeah, but once a musician or a filmmaker has consented to letting marketing machinery control their project's public image, you can't just fully blame the image on the machinery -- it's just working with the raw material the artist handed them, or convinced the artist to go along with

i'm not fully blaming it on the machinery, but 'consenting' is often 'we're paying for this, do what we say'. lots of filmmakers have aired their dissatisfaction with how their films have been promoted, but that's the price you pay.

swift is a commodity, and it isn't surprising that she's sold in a pretty standard form.

I love "Fancy" but listening to it w/o leading right into "Right Side of my Brain" sounds like absolute torture. Those two are just inseparable to me

supposed to be a video being made for 'Fancy' wasn't there? curious to see how the music would be cut at the end if so (more drums and piano!).