What got lost when records stopped having two sides?

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Gosh, I wish I remembered what that meant...

Some things are lost, but some things are gained.

Filler existed then. Filler exists now. At roughly the same ratios.

One can always "regress" the sequencing of a CD to vinyl standards if an artist/band wishes so. It's not as if anything in that regard is lost. It's very well documented, in fact. It's just that it's not the only choice anymore.

And now with mp3s, free 3rd party download sites etc. the contraints have changed not as much to what will fit within 80 minutes, but what will make the minimum requirements for a free YouSendIt link given your choice of bit-rate compression for a zip file of mp3s, or a long mix CD-R.

And this will change again, as media changes.

Standards/constraints rarely get lost. They get lost only if they are grossly impractical.

For example, someone could try to sequence an album today using 8-track tape standards, but why?

But the Side 1/Side 2 Of A Vinyl Album standard is not going to disappear at least anytime soon. Vinyl pressings have become more generally popular since the dearth in the 90s -- except in country and classical, if we're talkin' major mass markets and new releases.

i take your point about vinyl still being alive. i wonder, though, if bands think about it much these days. if a band was being smart it WOULDN'T since only crusty old freaks would be hearing it that way (or DJs, who have 0 use for track sequencing, anyway)

crossposts

Kid A isn't an LP, though - it was issued as a double 10" on vinyl (same as Amnesiac). Pulling out my copy - the sides are

Alpha: Everything In Its Right Place, Kid A
Beta: The National Anthem, How To Disappear..., Treefingers
Gamma: Optimistic, In Limbo
Delta: Idioteque, Morning Bell, Motion Picture Soundtrack

All of this is just making me want to put on Kid A for the first time in a long while. I will say, though, that much as I agree with almost everything said in this thread, particularly about the sequencing possibilities of having two "first songs" and two "last songs," it really falls apart with double albums. It's way too much getting up and sitting back down, but more importantly I think it's very hard to come up with FOUR different "first songs." Take the White Album, for example - I know every song on it by heart, but I couldn't tell you what side ANY of them are on, except that "Goodnight" is the last song and "Back in the USSR" is the very first. Whether "Piggies" is on the same side, or even the same record, as "Helter Skelter," I haven't a clue whatsoever. (All that said - "Dear Prudence" is in my mind the definitive "second song.")

Double LPs by '90s and '00s bands are often unlistenably sequenced because, composing with CD in mind, you end up with sides where there are maybe two songs total, and albums that as a whole could have easily been one-and-a-half-LPs instead of doubles, except that the long songs are all in the wrong places. I'm thinking here of The Moon and Antarctica, whose vinyl pressing is a disaster in many ways besides this. (The worst moment: the way the transition into "Tiny Cities Made of Ashes" starts up on Side A and then is simply cut off as the needle hits the end of the record.) It's all especially shameful because they seemed to get it so well on The Lonesome Crowded West, which to my memory actually has a completely different order to the tracklist in order to better flow for the format. It's also in a quietly unique package - two separate inner and outer sleeves, rather than a gatefold - which is neither here nor there, but I like it.

Props to Sleater-Kinney on The Woods, for just leaving side 4 blank rather than spreading all the tracks a little bit thinner and creating a superfluous side. They use the 4th side for a momentarily diverting screenprint of some tree rings, much the way Psychic Hearts has an illustration etched into the vinyl. This kind of shit may not necessarily be a selling point in itself, but it definitely beats creating a four-sided album for no good reason.

"what happens to LPs which had difft names to their sides when they come out on CD?"

The first time I ever heard Grin's 1+1 album, it was on a CD, and I was wondering why in the hell they put all these mushy love songs towards the end of the disc. Found out later that the vinyl version was split into a rockin' side and a romance side. Just like those OLDIES BUT GOODIES compilations on Original Sound.

I've recently added a few records to my collection with one classic side, where i've just decided to stop flipping the record over:

Steve Miller Band - Recall the Beginning...A Journey from Eden: Side 1 is a bunch of retro pastiche throwaways, and then side 2 is like he suddenly sold his soul to the devil to learn how to write perfect mellow psych-blues songs
Hall & Oates - Abandoned Luncheonette: I found a beater copy in the dollar bin recently, and i'm not even sure what's on side 2, but side 1 is wall-to-wall jams and i can't stop playing it. My kids are walking around the house singing "i'm just a kid don't make me feel like a man".
Bobby Hutcherson - Solo/Quartet: Solo = unique and classic, quartet = fine

Am i missing anything by not flipping these over?

Other examples of an entire skippable side?

This is a variation on the same idea, but I've started skipping the second record from Fairport Convention - The History Of Fairport Convention. It's a chronological best of compilation, and it just so happens that Sandy Denny's vocals stop right at the end of the first record, so i've realized that's all I need from that set.

ummm I don’t dislike it or anything, but I tend to eschew side b of discreet music

TS: Black Flag's My War side one and its descendants vs. Black Flag's My War side two and its descendants.

ELP's Tarkus is one of these, Side 2 just feels like a pile of bonus tracks that were cranked out in a couple of days. even though I kinda like 'em they also feel totally divorced from the main piece, it doesn't even really feel like a proper album to me

I also skip Side 2 of the first Roxy Music album a lot

Am i missing anything by not flipping these over?

"Laughing Boy" on the Hall and Oates record is an interesting mysterious ballad.

I tend to eschew side b of discreet music

So do I, and I dislike it too! An unsuccessful Eno experiment. On the other hand, I couldn't live without "The BOB (Medley)" or "Chance Meeting".

Other examples of an entire skippable side?

Side 1 of Silk Degrees and side 2 of Tangerine Dream's Cyclone are forgettable, but I love the other sides.

This feels like a chance to bring up something that I've heard, but have no idea if there is any truth to it: I've heard that back in the days of the LP, records would be sequenced so that the softer tracks like ballads would be sequenced to be near the end of a side for reasons related to sound quality. Is this true, or mostly made up?

that's definitely true, basically at the end of a side theres less space per revolution and the centripetal force of the needle increases, both which cause the sound to be more compressed, so if you put a softer/less dynamic track at the end it's much less noticeable

I think good engineers can get around this effect so long as the sides aren't too long but I don't know how good they were back then

x-post

True (mostly). When you get to the inner grooves of a side linear resolution goes down as the inner grooves move slower across the needle than the outer grooves. A really good vinyl mastering engineer can mitigate some of this, but audio dynamics are still constrained. This page gets into the specifics:
https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/vinyl-record-inner-groove-distortion-simple-explanation/

There was a Strawbs record called Bursting at the Seams where the last two songs on side 1 had to be flipped for this reason, they've restored the desired running order on the CD.

The beginning of the second side was the best because the band got to deliberately choose a track to get you energized for the second half.

CD era and beyond, nobody gives a fuck if it's track 5 or track 8

I can't find mention of this anywhere, but I recall that some classical labels were advocating for classical LPs to play from the inside out so that symphonic climaxes at the end of a piece would land at the edge of vinyl where the highest fidelity is.

There must be a lot of albums that were specifically structured so that the two sides were their own thing. Off the top of my head, Bowie's Low and Heroes work like this.

Beach Boys - Today, basically

Spacemen 3 - Recurring. One side each for Sonic and Jason

xp second side of Surf's Up is utter perfection - i rarely want to put on the first knowing "student demonstration time" will appear.

enochroot at 2:54 18 Sept 23

This is a variation on the same idea, but I've started skipping the second record from Fairport Convention - The History Of Fairport Convention. It's a chronological best of compilation, and it just so happens that Sandy Denny's vocals stop right at the end of the first record, so i've realized that's all I need from that set.

Side 2 of

oops, pressed send too quickly

I meant to say Side 2 of Neu! 2

I enjoy the sheer audacity of just playing the same recording at different speeds because you haven't recorded a side 2, not keen to actually listen to it though

ummm I don’t dislike it or anything, but I tend to eschew side b of discreet music

OTM

I had this thought some years ago, that if you're a hardliner about "listening to music as it was originally intended" you should actually pause the CD or stream of classic albums when a side is over, wait a few seconds to simulate the record being turned over, and then turn back on.

Lost opportunity during the CD era to make Authentic editions where each side gets a CD.

There's an AMM CD which includes a track of 10 seconds silence, included for precisely that reason – so you could program a pause and thereby simulate listening to the original LP.

Tom Petty: “Hello, CD listeners. We’ve come to the point in this album where those listening on cassette or record will have to stand up – or sit down – and turn over the record – or tape. In fairness to those listeners, we’ll now take a few seconds before we begin side two. Thank you. Here is side two.”

I enjoy the sheer audacity of just playing the same recording at different speeds because you haven't recorded a side 2, not keen to actually listen to it though

― the world is your octopus (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, September 18, 2023 1:38 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

reading the history of Neu! it really doesn't seem like they had any other options, they just ran out of money and time so they had to cobble something together

Neu! 75 is another cool LP the likes of which don't really get made anymore, you've got the Rother side and the Dinger side, both of which are like great EPs

I think it was The Whispers (maybe?) whose albums had a so-called dancin' side and romancin' side.

I think it was The Whispers (maybe?) whose albums had a so-called dancin' side and romancin' side.

The Isley Brothers were the masters of this, as Ice-T explains in this clip:

The Game Has Changed.. I miss Solid Albums. 👊🏽 pic.twitter.com/KxO1qGLaZv

— ICE T (@FINALLEVEL) September 6, 2023

Nice! I bet a lot of R&B artists did something like that.

was just listening to the sonny rollins album "brass/trio" where its a big band on one side and trio on the other, cant think of any off the top of my head by there must be a bunch of other jazz albums that do versions of that

I think it was The Whispers (maybe?) whose albums had a so-called dancin' side and romancin' side.

I have 3 Bohannon records on vinyl and they are all split up into a driving disco side one and a lush smoove jam side two.

Now you mention it I virtually never listen to second side of Bohannon albums.

Napalm Death did one better and had a completely different lineup on side 2 of Scum

Christmas and the Beads of Sweat by Laura Nyro had different line-ups on it's two sides: the Muscle Shoals session guys (including Duane Allman) on Side 1, free jazz players (Alice Coltrane, Richard Davis, Cornell Dupree, etc.) on Side 2.

Henry Cow ran out of material for their second album _Unrest_ so they just did a bunch of improvising

and then there's this track from the cassette version of _Neil's Heavy Concept Album_:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyL1tOogHPY

I've heard that back in the days of the LP, records would be sequenced so that the softer tracks like ballads would be sequenced to be near the end of a side for reasons related to sound quality. Is this true, or mostly made up?

Peter Gabriel resequenced So in 2002, moving In Your Eyes from the start of the second side to the end of the album. He apparently wanted it there in the first place but the bass of the track would have been lost there on vinyl.