Joy Division: Classic Or Dud?

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I mumbled in my AMG review of Closer that Unknown Pleasures was about obsessive focus where Closer was fragmented sprawl -- I think the two albums balance out each other remarkably. And I liked the Morley piece very much!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 17 September 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree Julio - the shifts between songs on Closer keep me more engaged, and if it's chaotic, it sounds like they've honed each song to be exactly what it should be. That said I'm not ruling out a sudden conversion to UP at some later date.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 17 September 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

"Yes, but what do Joy Division sound like compared to Radiohead?"

They sound (to me) as if they were genuinely despairing as opposed to sounding as if they were just feeling sory for themselves and wanting attention.

"The manic depressive who used to call me at 2am threatening to kill herself certainly wasn't a spotty teenager, but that doesn't make her "better" than one.

I think you're going way beyond / beneath how either band sound now.

Lest there be any misunderstanding though, let me make it absolutely clear that I was a fan of Joy Division while they were going and (to extend your comparison in the direction that it appears to me to be going) I most certainly don't believe that Ian Curtis having hanged himself is in any way "better" than Thom Yorke not having done so!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Slightly OT, but are the songs on the box set remastered? I've never cared too much for the sound on the CD's -- very tinny. On vinyl, Unknown Pleasures sounded awesome though.

― righteousmaelstrom, Friday, 17 September 2004 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Since when has "despairing" been a big component of the Radiohead sound? I don't get this comparison at all.

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

The only reason for the comparison afaik is that the various members of Radiohead have often cited JD as a major influence.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry Stewart my post up there was a bit tetchy. The cult of personality surrounding Ian/Trent Reznor etc. etc. was one thing that always irritated me about goths I knew, and similar pronouncements were made on a regular basis as if a) the extent of a band or singer's depression was the most important axis upon which to chart their talent, and b) killing oneself was a pretty ace thing to do. So whenever I see statements that are even superficially close to that my hackles rise. I do get the distinction you're making, although I think the JD influence on Radiohead (at least for "Street Spirit") was supposed to be in style not tone.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's a funny thing: I don't know what Dr. C's recollections are, but I don't recall JD actually having had that much of a "goth" following at the time when they were actually still going (not compared with e.g. Bauhaus or Siouxsie and The Banshees or even The Damned for that matter, anyway) - mainly the New Brutalist / "big black overcoat" brigade that also used to follow the other Factory bands and the likes of Echo & The Bunnymen, Killing Joke, PiL, etc. etc.

Mind you, The Cure didn't have much of a "goth" following in those days either as far as I can recall!

Whether or not the reason that the goths subsequently became interested in JD was a direct consequence of Ian Curtis death or the manner thereof I really wouldn't wish to speculate....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

You don't have to speculate, Stewart. I'll do it for you. EVERYTHING about Joy Division appeals to goths.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

The haircuts?

The clothes?

I think not!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, but that's interesting -- I know of a few goths who adore everything you might expect EXCEPT JD. In some cases there was active dislike.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:58 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.enkiri.com/joy/joy_division1.jpg

Goth pin-ups?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, Stephen had the chin. Bruce Campbell should play him in the new biopic.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 17 September 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think of JD as goth either (same goes for the Jesus and Mary Chain).

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 17 September 2004 15:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Those are nice sharp creases in Ian's smart grey polyester slacks 'though - and is it just the way Barney's standing or do I spy grey underpants sticking out above the top of his trousers?

I can't see too many goths being over-enamoured of Steven Morris' nice smart striped shirt either.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 17 September 2004 15:04 (twenty-one years ago)

why don't bands wear ties anymore?

― amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 15:43 (twenty-one years ago)

don't interpol?

― cºzen (Cozen), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:35 (twenty-one years ago)

JAMC is so goth, though!

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

oh yeah. and the hives. but that immediately pegs them as kinda retro.

let's play word association! interpol... acne!

― amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost

― amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I need 'don't interpol' on a t-shirt, like stat.

― cºzen (Cozen), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

this is from a goth web-site:

Joy Division are not usually thought of as being goth, despite being referred to as "gothic" at the time, but their influence on goth bands was
considerable. Their sparse, haunting sound was quite unlike anything else around at the time and spawned a host of imitators, especially after
Ian Curtis' death (Bauhaus' first album and the Sisters' first single were both slammed as being the work of poor Joy Division copyists, which
was rather unfair on Bauhaus). Their use of minimalist and gothic art on record covers also had a lasting influence (for instance, the cover to
the March Violets "Grooving in Green", designed by Andrew Eldritch, has definite similarities to the cover of "Closer").

Additionally, they were a major source of the term "gothic" as applied to post-punk music.

However, Joy Division were never a part of the goth scene; the goth scene proper started to emerge around 81/82, by which time Ian Curtis was
long dead.

They were never really regarded as "goth" musically by goths, either, despite the obvious debts owed to them by a lot of goth bands. A lot of
first-era goths viewed them as too "mainstream" owing to their posthumous popularity; also, their image was rather too bleak (from a Batcave
point of view, they were decidedly unsexy). And they had their own following, the "long raincoat brigade".

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:46 (twenty-one years ago)

JAMC is so goth, though!

I completely disagree, Joy Division = Urban Decay, VU = Heroin/S&M, JAMC = Motorcycles/Oral Sex. None of them = vampires/lace/eyeliner. I mean they all wear black, but so do The Raiders (who are actually more goth than those bands).

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:48 (twenty-one years ago)

OR rather, JAMC is what goth SHOULD sound like.

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

(When it doesn't sound like Cradle of Filth.)

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

is that supposed to be robert smith in 24 hour party people in the scene with Ian's wake? the guy who gets runs up and says "you don't know how much he meant to us!"?

― kyle (akmonday), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

i have never really investigated this "goth" phenomenon. what i've encountered of it seemed so ridiculous that i've managed to pretend it doesn't exist, with generally successful results. i probably like a few bands that are considered "goth" by some but i've never considered it.

― the pinefoxateurist, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Dan, do you like Android Lust? I loved that last album.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

i have never really investigated this "goth" phenomenon.

are you a very very old person?

― kyle (akmonday), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't heard Android Lust! Clearly I must.

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 17 September 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www3.sympatico.ca/lafleurlambert/abe_simpson.gif

― amateur!!st, Friday, 17 September 2004 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't personally know any goths who listen to Joy Division.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 17 September 2004 17:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't heard Android Lust! Clearly I must.

They're great! Or I should say she's great, one woman band.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 September 2004 05:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the goths I knew at school weren't particularly sensitive to factional demarcations - there was pretty much a goth/punk/industrial/trenchcoat conglomerate, united by a shared appreciation for depression, dressing up, chartreuse and random sex with ugly people.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 18 September 2004 05:59 (twenty-one years ago)

keiji haino and diamanda are actual goths even if they don't say so.

Can someone do a friendster search on JD? then we can see what else their fans like.

I think amt's pinefox impression wz worse than when raggett did it on some other thread. Can't blame you tho' - its hard to do.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 18 September 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

stephen morris is wearing very nice trousers in that photo.

― youn, Saturday, 18 September 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

well aside from doing a pinefox impression i was being honest, so it's bound to be a little compromised

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

JAMC is so goth, though!

-- Spencer Chow (spencercho...), September 17th, 2004.

those bands might not be goth but c'mon, the 'goth' aesthetic (in rock music) as we know it wouldn't exist the way it does without those bands.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.enkiri.com/joy/joy_division1.jpg

JOY DIVISION WERE FRANZ FERDINAND!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:49 (twenty-one years ago)

The one Urban Decay album I have sounds like bad Bauhaus not bad Joy Division.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, but that's interesting -- I know of a few goths who adore everything you might expect EXCEPT JD. In some cases there was active dislike.
-- Ned Raggett (ne...), September 17th, 2004.

i guess it prolly differs from goth to goth (heh). all the goths i've known personally were DEFINITELY into Joy Division.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:53 (twenty-one years ago)

http://svt.se/content/1/c6/18/23/93/franz_ferdinand_1.jpg

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:54 (twenty-one years ago)

how do you know if someone's a goth? do they self-identify as a goth?

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"And if we cut that off you don't have to play guitar anymore."

"Good, good..."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Visually speaking, Joy Divison plus retarded juice = Franz Ferdinand.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

how do you know if someone's a goth? do they self-identify as a goth?
-- amateur!!!st (---...), September 18th, 2004.

blood test, dude.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

type 666 negative

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Saturday, 18 September 2004 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

he's not standing right. then the trousers aren't the same.

― youn, Saturday, 18 September 2004 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

nah, just type o.

x-post

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 18 September 2004 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

in college i had a "dick tracy" comic posted on my fridge where dick tracy is investigating some kind of goth gun-running ring (this is immediately post-columbine). but clearly the guy who draws dick tracy has no idea what "goth" means so these guys have posters of, uh, visigoths on their wall, and are wearing big fur hats.

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Saturday, 18 September 2004 17:04 (twenty-one years ago)

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