Bolt the door, Varg is loose!

It's not gym music.

xp

black metal is more like woe is you

i dunno i read all this shit that this varg dude says and he sounds like a coward and a loser like most racist ppl like skinheads and shit

i know the lyrics aren't woah is me, i'm talking about these guys worldview

varg is a pussy

"he sounds like a coward and a loser"

I can't disagree with that at all.

i mean he really is a weasel.

Or that.

I dunno, a lot of those lyrics are about being sad and the night is a pretty lady and oh darnit I might as well go to hell, what! Also, crying orcs.

No news here about the cause of the fire, btw.

Woe is orcs.

he's right, though, the night is a pretty lady

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yah m@tt i agree w/you on varg as a person, and am obv wildly anti-NSBM, but theres a lot of black metal that isnt that flavor of dumb, i mean Wolves in the Throne Room are all into cuddling w/trees and shrubs

Woe is shrubs.

(not that they are teh best example of BM, i just think they're cuter than most with their hippie stuff) xpost

i heard that they butcher their own goats, which is pretty \m/

like they all live in a self-sufficient commune in the northwest somewhere, living off the land and making black metal

The concept of Wolves in the Throne Room is better than the music of Wolves in the Throne Room sadly.

wrong

no Alex is OTM

Shits in the Bath Room more like

and not to start shit but really

it's really sad that a bunch of beautiful buildings had to die for all this shitty metal

it's also sad a bunch of norwegians had to die for those beautiful buildings imo which is the actual point of churchburnings, which I agree are childish & don't accomplish anything & hurt people who don't deserve it. but they're not just "I'm a vandal"

imo

their music is way better than their concept imo.

xposts

"it's also sad a bunch of norwegians had to die for those beautiful buildings imo which is the actual point of churchburnings"

I think these guys have retroactively tried to make that actual point, but in all honestly I think the original point was closer to "I'm a vandal!"

true enuf but the point as varg makes it in one of roxy's posts upthread is well-put and worth consideration even if, yeah, I don't think it's cool to burn down a nice old church

iirc most of the black metal arsonists were basically teenagers weren't they?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Scandinavia

kinda interesting

xxp Totally agree, I just think it's work noting that Varg is making that point some years after. It's has little to do with what, I think anyway, the initial motivations were (which were frankly pretty childish in thought as well as deed.)

iirc most of the black metal arsonists were basically teenagers weren't they?

yes but I am of the opinion that teenager isn't a synonym for dumbass - even when teenagers do dumb shit I think of teenagers as intelligent passionate dumb-in-deed-but-not-in-substance human beings

corny I know but that is like a core thing w/me.

from what I remember of being a teenager, most of them are actually dumbasses

then again I grew up in dumbass teenager Mecca so my sample is likely skewed

i tend to believe they were some stupid fucking potheads all het up on their own little fantasy worlds, plotting some fictional "crusade" against the imaginary forces allied against them, plotting out schemes in dungeon apartments all filled up with boogers and hairballs and ugly posters and empty bottles and garbage and one day they finally got fucked up enough or delusional enough to actually try something

j0hn for how you are usually mr. moral (which i actually admire) in a lot of threads on ILM i think it's weird the mental gymnastics you go through to play captain save-a-metal-idiot

yeah I would think that trying to understand what makes dumb teenagers do dumb shit, how they ended up all fucked up, is kinda part of my mr. moral deal. I don't think anything is accomplished by decrying what total fuckin' assholes they are. the behaviors isn't meaningless expression of assholism. plus also I love heavy metal so what can you do y'know.

like this:

one day they finally got fucked up enough or delusional enough to actually try something

no. flatly no. the behavior has meaning. it's more useful to parse that meaning than to say, oh, a bunch of fucked up teens did some shit that sucked. and, in my opinion, truer.

ha, part of my problem is that it seems like 80% of the time, the answer to "what makes dumb teenagers do dumb shit" is "they were bored"

a lot of the most fucked up things i did as a teenager were due to directionless rage, but were so pointless in retrospect that even i make the mistake of thinking i did them because i was bored. to be fair, if i had taken strongly to sports, or music, or something along those lines, i might not have been so angry or had enough free time to hatch some of the plots i did.

by the way i think it's really admirable to try to understand people who do things you disagree with or hate. if more people practiced this, we might not be about to trigger a global holy war.

i see what your saying, j0hn, and i do have more sympathy for the boys that they were than the men that they are now (who don't seem to have learned much if anything)

I think maybe what's key here is that explaining the whys of something != justifying it, necessarily?

well actually I think many of them are a little embarrassed by the whole thing. and some of the kvltest were cats from Oslo who weren't actually doing it but got off on it because of the extremity of it, just the "WHOA YOU KNOW THAT ONE CRAZY FUCK? HE ACTUALLY BURNED DOWN A FUCKING CHURCH!" which I mean really, it's asking everybody to be a po-faced moralist like me to demand that they not go "insane! he burned a church for metal! fuckin' A!" But Varg would die before he'd give up the status he can get by being unrepentantly The Guy Who Stands For Burning Churches. It's hardly news that Varg's a dick tho!

xpost

he's a RL troll

I think maybe what's key here is that explaining the whys of something != justifying it, necessarily?

That is absolutely true. However, sometimes attempts to explain something are exercises in projection; there is a tacit presumption going on that casts the person doing the abhorrent thing in your mindset in order for you to come up with a sufficient motivation for their actions. Most of the mean things I did when I was a kid were born out of feeling trapped in a hostile environment combined with thinking life was pointless and transitory after my brother died at age 24, and even then I couldn't muster the will to do anything that would be permanent because I knew that if I kept out of trouble, I'd never have to set foot in that town again unless I was visiting my parents. You could paint this successful child-rearing on my parents' part combined with a pretty comfortable financial situation, but some portion of it included recognition on my part that, no matter how shitty and depressed I felt, I knew that I would be able to get out someday. And I did. And so did the vast majority of my friends. Very few of the kids I considered idiots did.

This has nothing to do with Varg really but it's the longest thing I've written in like 6 months.

man when you think of the people who never got out your heart's gotta bleed a little even if they were dicks don'tcha

maybe not I do though

every time my heart starts to bleed, I think of the dudes/girls who called me a racial slur and that pretty much kills the burgeoning sympathy

yeah i guess i would be more willing to recognize the humanity in dudes like varg if they weren't espousing a "philosophy" (half formed rhetoric) that denied the humanity of others

like, it's easy to feel sorry for someone who has never attacked you, or spat upon you repeatedly, or tried to piss in your locker, or basically spent 6 months making your life a complete and utter living hell, is kind of my underlying not-so-secret thesis here; in looking at these stories, I am much more likely to have sympathy for the people who had to bear the brunt of these frustrations rather than the people expressing them in destructive, wholly inappropriate ways

xpost: OTM

tbf a lot of the dumb destructive stuff dan and i got up to is also kind of facepalm hilarious in retrospect, which prob would not be the case if we'd burned down any churches.

if you guys had burned down some lutheran churches I would be laffing my ass off tbqf

an honest question - how different is the not really tacit but kind of wink wink endorsement that some black metal has from other musical movements (thinking hip hop and grafitti because of the proximity of the vandalistic aspect, or imo the much worse "stop snitchin'" movement (which i know is a big pile of media distorted bullshit, but so is the prominence of church burning per capita so)

xpost it is possible that i or someone very much like me might have done a startlingly quantifiable and prob felonious amount of damage during my teenage rebellion against the oppressive regime of golf courses, which is about as close to burning down a lutheran church as you are likely to get