― Ben Williams, Monday, 26 August 2002 18:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Monday, 26 August 2002 18:38 (twenty-one years ago) link
hey i just heard someone on TV say "break-dancing was a short-term solution to gang violence"
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 18:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
and talking heads, gang of four, a certain ratio are all post-punk anyway... ;)
― Ben Williams, Monday, 26 August 2002 18:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
and, yeah, post-punk reacted against capital-p Punk's fundamentalism by experimenting again, but that's not really contradicting the fact that a lot (definitely definitely not ALL) of Punk had a back-to-basics streak in it.
and mark s., pls expand on yr "it was a mix". I was really curious to hear your thoughts on this question when I posted it.
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 18:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
maybe I'm drawing a false connection here, but was the anti-60's impulse of punk actually pro-'50's: a wish to return to a simpler time? No. It was just as anti-50's as anti-60's. Possibly the reason it failed was that it wasn't pro-anything.
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Monday, 26 August 2002 18:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 18:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
there were no over-arching tendencies, it was the end of a unity not the start of one: the pistols alone contained six complete distinct and incompatible youth sub-cultures (seven if you include jamie reid)
sorry fritz i am in the middle of a giant serious academic essay on TOLKIEN and the GOTHIC in CHILDREN's LITERATURE (true!!) for a journal devoted to education: if i try and think abt punk as well my head will rot to a pimple on top of my neck oh wait....
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 18:57 (twenty-one years ago) link
This thread is reminding me of how much I hated the Punk Magazine mentality and how welcome the diversity/pro-everything attitude of New York Rocker was when it showed up on the scene.
"darkness falls like a black leather jacket..."
― D. Harry (Arthur), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:04 (twenty-one years ago) link
― geeta (geeta), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Monday, 26 August 2002 19:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:07 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― B:Rad (Brad), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
― J0hn Darn1elle, Monday, 26 August 2002 19:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
http://zenorecords.com/enter.htm
You're dealing with a jumble of myths here anyway...if you're mentioning straightedge punk and glue-sniffers like the Ramones in the same sentence then "punk" is probably more inclusive than you think.
I would argue that hip-hop is *way* more reactionary than punk ever was...even the "conscious" strains so favored by liberal writers tend to espouse a "let's get back to God, family, and strong black men" ideology. But for all I know there are tons of underground hip-hop groups like the Coup (whose "Wear Clean Draws" is the one explicitly radical feminist hip-hop song I've heard.)
Anway, there is no necessary relationship between content and form in music or anything else. There's nazi punk and there's anarchist punk, and I'm sure you'd find the same thing in free jazz or whatever.
― Clyde, Monday, 26 August 2002 19:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
Punk was a reaction to the overly technical, glossy music that dominated rock, where no one released singles and every number had to have long solos - but that's largely a Brit's perspective, because I don't think it makes too much sense to talk of Television and Talking Heads that way. And there was as much '60s stuff that punk liked as '50s - Iggy was a way more revered figure than Eddie Cochran, obviously, but in both cases we are only talking about liking a couple of things. Dislike was much more what punk centred on.
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
Also, doesn't part of the Townsend-goes-cuckoo-for-Cocoa-Puffs story that inspired "Who Are You" involve Pete running into a couple of the Sex Pistols at a pub (Steve and Paul, I think), telling them the Who were breaking up and then freaking when the Pistol members lamented "But we love the Who!" (Then again maybe he made that up to make himself look more "hep" and "with it".)
― Nate Patrin, Monday, 26 August 2002 19:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
What I was trying to get at was that there was an element of conservatism in SOME of it, and moreso in how the story of punk gets retold ("rock n roll had lost its way and needed to be brought back to its roots").
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 26 August 2002 19:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
OK - I really want to make it clear that I was never trying to make an inclusive generalization about ALL punk - I admit IT WAS A MIX.It cannot be done. Punk is not a single genre or style, or even a mix of genres or styles. It is a rebellious spirit that all musicians feel when they are still young, brash and naive. Every new musical act has a little bit of punk in them. Hell, I'm sure even Michael Bolton has some c30s he recorded at age 14 that would be quite amusing (especially when we see how he turned out.)
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
Hardcore, though--that was definitely conservative in the beginning. At least to an old turd like me.
I saw the movie Downtown '81 a few months ago, and the funniest thing about it was just how uncool it was to be a mere punk rocker at that time. The laughing stocks of the movie are the fake punk rockers the Felons (basically Blondie) rehearsing in Bradly Field's basement. Everyone rolls their eyes whenever they're mentioned.
― Arthur (Arthur), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Siegbran Hetteson (eofor), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:30 (twenty-one years ago) link
How does that match with your disdain for Oi! then? Is the moralist/vegan/anarchist form of punk more in line with the "art school" heritage of punk and thus more acceptable? How did such paradigms form?This is actually a very good question. I admit a bias toward the "art school" sub-sub-sub-style, but thats not why Oi! annoys me. Its that at least half of it is been absorbed by some strain of Naziism. I've never met a smart Nazi, nor have I ever met one who wasn't a total drag. Granted extremely "leftist" and extremely "artsy-fartsy" musicians are just as boring and irritating. The Nazis just seem to be more likely to be fatally violent for no reason.
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:53 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
ppl who have a 'rebellious' spirit make remarkably similar music (even if the instrumentation is slightly different from band A to band B) and so you can identify, (by listening to the sound) what punk is, what it sounds like. The opinions of ppl in punk bands is already so boringly similar too.
''it's this idea that rock music had somehow been polluted by foreign influences like classical, jazz, folk, country & hippies in general and needed to be purified & returned to its basic, pure elements that strikes me as conservative (and I don't think its entirely untrue either)'' and ''later the all work no play ethic espoused by the sst & dischord crowds''
I honestly don't think you can lump SST in with the punk crowd strictly because it sounds to me that a lot fo the bands just ddin't swallow the 'punk' goespel and let it be. Some of those bands had open ears to jazz, reggae and so on.
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 26 August 2002 20:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
I don't hate anybody...I'm a good person in the end but I just don't like being told that 'Funhouse' is one of the great rock alb of all time or guff like its a great distillation of free jazz and rock.
heh...julie. Thanks marky!
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 26 August 2002 21:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
G|------------------| D|-2!-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-| A|------------------| E|------------------|
e|-0--------| B|----------| G|----------| D|----------| A|----------| E|----------|
e|----------------|-------------------| B|-7--7-7-7-7-7-7-|-(7)-7-7-7-7-7-7---| G|-7--7-7-7-7-7-7-|-(7)-7-7-7-7-7-7---| D|-7--7-7-7-7-7-7-|-(7)-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-| A|-5--5-5-5-5-5-5-|-(5)-5-5-5-5-5-5-0-| E|----------------|-------------------|
Our own correspondent is sorry to tell Of an uneasy time that all is not well
e|-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0---| B|-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-2---| G|-------------------| D|-------------------| A|-------------------| E|-------------------|
e|---------------| B|---------------| G|---------------| D|-5/7---7---7-7-| A|-5/7---7---7-7-| E|-3/5---5---5-5-|
On the borders there's movement In the hills there is trouble Food is short, crime is double
Prices have risen since the government fell Casualties increase as the enemy shell The climate's unhealthy, flies and rats thrive And sooner or later the end will arrive
This is your correspondent, running out of tape Gunfire's increasing, looting, burning, rape
G|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| D|-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-|-----------------|-----------------| A|-----------------|-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-|-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-| E|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|
G|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| D|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| A|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| E|-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-|-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3-|-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-|
G|-----------------|---|----------|---| D|-----------------|-%-|----------|-%-| A|-----------------|---|----------|---| E|-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-|---|-0--------|---|
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 21:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
looks like you've got time on yr hands mark. Finished the article or is it that you can't stay away?
anyway, must go...work continues for me tomorrow.
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 26 August 2002 21:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 21:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
I've lost track of the chronology of this. When did they decide that the Clash weren't offering the right political analysis? Because Parsons was very keen on them up to mid '77, what with the fawning interview that came out on that bonus EP with the first album. Were they actually SWP members? (I know the book was published by Pluto press but..)
― David (David), Monday, 26 August 2002 22:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
I think this worked on several levels. Firstly there was a general '50s revivalism in the 1970s, ranging from the re-contextualisation of things like Roxy Music through to straight revivalism eg Mud and Showaddywaddy and then later 'Grease' etc.(And McClaren/Westwood were part of this mood with the 'Let It Rock'shop they had).
So a fascination with the '50s was in the air anyway, plus Punk found a connection with the simplicity and rawness of the music. People heavily into Pink Floyd or Mahavishnu tended not to be big Gene Vincent or Eddie Cochran fans at that time.
― David (David), Monday, 26 August 2002 22:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
I think this actually happened. Townshend was drunk at the Speakeasy club (fading London club popular with old guard rock stars) and got talking to a bemused Paul Cook who was having a quiet drink.
― David (David), Monday, 26 August 2002 22:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 22:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
I believe Patti Smith was a working class bohemian art student in the beatnik tradition. You've heard "Piss Factory", right?
So was Alan Vega. Television were a bunch of juvenile deliquents and mental patients.
The bohemian culture has always had many more members of the working class than people realize. My husband, for example, who grew up in poverty as the child of a dirt farmer in North Carolina and drifted into the Miami hippie culture when his family disintergrated.
I also remember hardcore punk (in the eighties, at least) as being very working class.
― Christine "Green Leafy Dragon" Indigo (cindigo), Monday, 26 August 2002 22:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
Hey, don't forget your actual girlfriend, Mark!
― Arthur (Arthur), Monday, 26 August 2002 23:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
http://www.velvetcds.com.br/zine/galeria/caricaturas/joan.jpg
― joan jett's actual girlfriend (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 23:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Arthur (Arthur), Monday, 26 August 2002 23:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
― joan jett's actual girlfriend (mark s), Monday, 26 August 2002 23:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
It's dialectical.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
and please note that this is based on "Alley-Oop" not real facts
Roots reggae always had a conservative slant
and hell yeah to that! I still don't understand why the emperor-worshipping back-to-the-land anti-gay anti-woman pro-Bible religious elements of reggae get such a free pass to groovytown just because they smoke pot (take out the emperor and bible and you got the MC5 too)
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:29 (twenty-one years ago) link
Lord C. - what are the differences between ska(1) and ska(2)?
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:31 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
have I got an ILE thread for you ;)
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
The Clash and some others responded (I think) to the liberation theology in there - and the groove - but that spark seems to have been quite ably contained somehow.Tragic, really. We shoulda let it all flow out of us.
I mean the last time I was over at June Cleaver's she had Bob Marley - "Legend" in her CD stack. And "London Calling".Yeah, but YOUR June Cleaver is Rockist Scum who has the records but never listens to them. The June Cleaver I'm referring to still thinks Tony Bennett is too racy for her blood.
Fritz: have I got an ILE thread for youPost a link, and I'll take a look.
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 15:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 16:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
That's Mark on the left getting rid of Custos in the middle while Fritz looks on in horror. I'm in the background with the white hat thinking "The hell?"
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 16:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 16:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 17:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
What you're talking about definitely applies to many punk subgenres, but I think the "alt-country" movement might be a better example of "musical conservatism."
― Clyde, Tuesday, 27 August 2002 17:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Tuesday, 27 August 2002 20:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
Tracer I don't agree - the look is more negative than just jealousy. I read it as a bit of jealousy, a bit of fear, a bit of disappointment. I think punk - like most 'scenes' - must have been a crushing disappointment for a lot of scared or shy kids who wanted a place where they could 'fit in' and 'be themselves' and discovered that it *was* themselves who made them unable to fit in, not the square straight world (or whatever).
― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 08:26 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 08:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 12:10 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 15:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:22 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:45 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 17:27 (twenty-one years ago) link
I'm reminded of the Venn Diagram Mark S reprints in his 'Concrete' essay - here are the punks and here are the non-punks and here are the people who don't fit into either. The reading is that those people are sympathetic but I think they can be sympathetic and also frightened and miserable and disappointed.
― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 21:46 (twenty-one years ago) link
i suppose this is hardly earth-shaking news but it just goes to show: when is jello biafra going to get a propah job, eh? (i haf still not forgiven him for "too drunk to fuck", i paid GOOD MONEY FOR THAT you laYMoR)
― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 22:01 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 22:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 23:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 29 August 2002 12:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 29 August 2002 12:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Thursday, 29 August 2002 16:38 (twenty-one years ago) link