Ask Geir Hongro

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steve quit answering for geir!!!!!

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:04 (1 hour ago)
yeah steve shut up!!!!!

-- Mr. Que, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:05 (1 hour ago)
He's Geir pro tempore.

-- Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:13 (1 hour ago)
steve quit answering for geir!!!!!

-- onimo, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:14 (1 hour ago)

who me? i did nothing. i have no interest in this stupid thread.

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

I think they meant St3ve Go1db3rg, Blueski.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:20 (nineteen years ago)

yeah i meant St#v# Goldberg

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

oh cool

― blueski, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

That kind of modulation is great no matter where it pops up. And moreover important is the fact that all those three songs are SOOOOO much more sophisticated harmonically than anything that was heard in the "rock" genre before The Beatles.

Ok, sure, The Beatles made the "rock and roll" genre more sophisticated, even though they quickly moved on from that blueprint. My point is A) as key changes go (both in The Beatles catalogue and generally), that one doesn't stand out as particularly inventive or special, and B) even though you didn't hear that kind of thing in "rock and roll" pre-Beatles it was definitely done in popular music.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

And The Beatles were apparently playing "Til There Was You" in 1962, which was written in 1959 and had similar twists to the most sophisticated Beatles songs.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

I don't remember if I've offered this before, but Geir, you should definitely listen to Opeth's Damnation. I don't think you'd like the rest of their catalog, but that might do something for you. Also records by the Mat Maneri Trio, which is a semi-avant-garde jazz group utilizing microtones and a violin-bass-drums format.

― unperson, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

I feel the great Hongro question that has loomed for over a decade internationally is why do you not believe in the "apples shouldn't be compared to oranges" theory?

Can't you just say you don't like apples while rating oranges? Or saying "if an apple is sweet enough, I can eat it, but I'm no real fan of apples"?

Seems you do that for Jazz, but can't for Funk/Rap/Techno/et al, which I believe is what has made you the punching bag.

I think this is the key question to be answered/addressed.

― Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

VM re-submits the above questions to GH re: Joe Meek, Scott Walker, and Randy Newman. He also is interested in the apples vs. oranges query…

― Veronica Moser, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

Veronica Moser is a he?

― Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

Around here he is. Wake up, William!

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

fcc, I think you forgot to ask

geir: major or minor?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 18:37 (nineteen years ago)

geir: arco or pizzicato?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

Wake up, William!

I don't wake up for nobody 'less I get paid!

― Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

That's not what you said on the over 40 thread

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, stop stalking me!

― Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

Just a bit of fun, let's be cool, don't go all Masonic Boom on me.

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:05 (nineteen years ago)

What, you don't call her Kate?

― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:07 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno, elegant variation?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:11 (nineteen years ago)

geir: elegant variation vs. doin' it to death?

― James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:11 (nineteen years ago)

I bet he goes for the first one.

― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

I feel the great Hongro question that has loomed for over a decade internationally is why do you not believe in the "apples shouldn't be compared to oranges" theory?

Can't you just say you don't like apples while rating oranges? Or saying "if an apple is sweet enough, I can eat it, but I'm no real fan of apples"?

Seems you do that for Jazz, but can't for Funk/Rap/Techno/et al, which I believe is what has made you the punching bag.

I think this is the key question to be answered/addressed.

-- Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 17:03 (2 hours ago)

I've taken the silence on the issue as a stance...

― PappaWheelie V, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 19:34 (nineteen years ago)

What does a Geir look like?
Favourite food?
Colour?

― Finefinemusic, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 20:10 (nineteen years ago)

And The Beatles were apparently playing "Til There Was You" in 1962, which was written in 1959 and had similar twists to the most sophisticated Beatles songs.

But like a lot of pre-Beatles non blues-based pop it's mainly ostinato based. And the entire song is in the same key, even though the switch from major to minor in some of the chords may have influenced McCartney's songwriting (one of his most typical trademarks, later made even more of a speciality by Neil Finn)

Can't you just say you don't like apples while rating oranges? Or saying "if an apple is sweet enough, I can eat it, but I'm no real fan of apples"?

Even if apples and oranges taste differently, I expect them to taste sweet

Even if jazz, blues, pop, rock and whatever is different genres of music, I expect all of them to have the main empasis on melody and harmony.

you should definitely listen to Opeth's Damnation.

Does it contain grinding or screaming?

Does it contain loud and fast guitars?

If the answer to any of this questions is anything else but NO, then I know I will hate it just as much as anything else within the genre.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 21:55 (nineteen years ago)

oranges to coffee, veal to cheescake, whatever...

― PappaWheelie V, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

But like a lot of pre-Beatles non blues-based pop it's mainly ostinato based. And the entire song is in the same key

In what sense is it ostinato based? And From Me To You is just as much in one key as much as Til There Was You. FMTY doesn't really modulate - it's entirely in C with brief allusions to to G and F via secondary dominants (like many pieces of music in C).

Aaanyway, this is sort of a goofy argument. From Me to You has some nice twists in it, I agree. I'm just saying it's not the most sterling example of The Beatles compositional chops because it isn't really far out or weird in any sense and they always did stuff like that, even in their early songs. But you know you don't have to hang your whole reason for liking it on that key change.

Even if jazz, blues, pop, rock and whatever is different genres of music, I expect all of them to have the main empasis on melody and harmony.

Part of the definition of different genres is that they don't all emphasize the same things. Not even all Classical or Romantic or Baroque music has a melodic emphasis.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:16 (nineteen years ago)

you should definitely listen to Opeth's Damnation.

Does it contain grinding or screaming? NO

Does it contain loud and fast guitars? NO

it's a mellow melodic progressive art-rock album

― djmartian, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

One thing here: While I stand by that one key change in "From Me To You" as the definite one, there is another guy that I'd rather pick as a prime example of key changes being used in a great way, and that is Nik Kershaw. Particularly the constant key changes in the middle-eight of "The Riddle" is absolutely genius.

it's entirely in C with brief allusions to to G and F via secondary dominants (like many pieces of music in C).

But that is sort of the most interesting kind of modulations. See also "The Riddle".

it's a mellow melodic progressive art-rock album

Like Arena or Spock's Beard (both of which are usually put in the "Metal" section in record shops here for some strange reason)

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:19 (nineteen years ago)

I expect all of them to have the main empasis on melody and harmony.

And there's the point where you lose all credibility with me. Actually, you never had any to lose. "Expectation is a prison," as the man says. Still, I guess I'm happy that you know what you like.

― Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:24 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know "The Riddle," I'll have to check it out.

But that is sort of the most interesting kind of modulations.

I'm saying it's not really a modulation at all. When you're doing a harmonic analysis and there are only four bars of a piece that could be analyzed as not being in the home key, you'll generally just label them secondary dominants and not call it a key change (the way you did when talking about Til There Was You). And I doubt anyone notating that song would write a new key signature for those four bars.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

Secondary dominants sure, I have learned secondary dominants to be referred to as a modulation too. But I know there are different methods of doing harmonic analysis in different institutions.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:26 (nineteen years ago)

If you analyze something as a secondary dominant it means you haven't modulated yet - otherwise it would just be the dominant. In C, D7 is the V/V. If you've modulated to G, it's the V. Sometimes a secondary dominant leads into a modulation, but like I said, as that song is only debatably in F for four bars, you'd just stay in C and write ii/IV V/IV IV and then you've got V/V V I in C. You could just as easily analyze it as going into F for 4 bars, G for 2 bars, and then back to C (people will sometimes analyze in 2 keys at once for a few bars when something like this comes up - although like I said I really doubt anyone would notate it that way), but I'm just pointing this out as evidence for why it's not that special. It just borrows one note from a closely-related key (Bb) and only does it for two bars. That's a nice touch, but it's far from the most sophisticated one even within their own catalogue.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:35 (nineteen years ago)

None of that changes how the song sounds, which is presumably what Geir appreciates. Remember that McCartney can't even read music.

― everything, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:42 (nineteen years ago)

McCartney surely may have done more sophisticated moves in his ballads later on, but that move was the first. Before that, rock music was supposed to be extremely harmonically simple and other than Del Shannon nobody experimented much with harmony.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:42 (nineteen years ago)

That's kind of my point, everything. I'm saying that Geir likes the song because of how it sounds, and he shouldn't need to try and prove it's worth liking by saying it has a really remarkable key change.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:46 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, I still like From Me To You without thinking it has a key change worth caring about.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

Everly Brothers?

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

geir, what is your favourite synthesizer?

― creme1, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:52 (nineteen years ago)

None of that changes how the song sounds, which is presumably what Geir appreciates.

not how the song sounds -- how the medody and harmony sound

― PappaWheelie V, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

geir, what is your favourite synthesizer?

I haven't actually been able to play the original heavyweight monster, mind you, but Arturia's Yamaha CS80 softsynth sounds incredibly warm.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

not how the song sounds -- how the medody and harmony sound

Yeah, I mean, it'd be nice to see arrangement get some credit. The notes don't assign themselves to instruments, you know! And orchestration is a big deal in classical music.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:11 (nineteen years ago)

Geir which period of Hüsker Dü do you prefer best?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

I believe this link will answer any and all questions about Damnation:

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:hzfpxqeald0e

― Jeff Treppel, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

Geir which period of Hüsker Dü do you prefer best?

The post-period. (Sugar, that is ;) )

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

Geir, please rank these bands :

Yes
Genesis
Jethro Tull
Dream Theater
Rush
ELP
Camel
Barclay James Harvest
King Crimson
The Beatles

― Matt #2, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:05 (nineteen years ago)

Genesis
The Beatles
Yes
ELP
Camel
King Crimson
Rush
Barclay James Harvest
Jethro Tull
Dream Theater

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:11 (nineteen years ago)

Some surprises there.

― Matt #2, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:23 (nineteen years ago)

geir hongro: this things i believe

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:25 (nineteen years ago)

Geir Hongro: does the suicide of

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 00:28 (nineteen years ago)

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