CRAZY RAPPERS

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Wesley Willis isn't a rapper though!

Maybe, but his flow is on par with, say, The Streets.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:36 (twenty years ago)

Who are some white artists that can be compared to ODB and Kook Keith? Brian Wilson doesn't cut it because his art didn't revolve around a crazy persona for most of his career.

Pete Burns.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:36 (twenty years ago)

seriously, do you people watch VH1? how is 'reactions to his arrest' remotely noteworthy? there's definitely a point as to how white artists are allowed to be crazy AND geniuses more often (though give it a couple decades, see George Clinton and Sun Ra), but everybody gets some 'comedian' riffing on their antics now.

― Zwan (miccio), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:37 (twenty years ago)

Who are some white artists that can be compared to ODB and Kook Keith?

Axl Rose?

Daniel Johnston?

Roky Erikson?

Iggy Pop (back in the day)?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:37 (twenty years ago)

gg allin, jim morrison

― hugaboo (space hard), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:37 (twenty years ago)

Does Question Mark count as a white guy.

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:37 (twenty years ago)

also, it irks me a little bit that people seem to think ODB is only popular because he's "crazy"...it also has something to do w.him releasing some fucking great albums and SONGS....ditto w/Kool Keith, he'd still be a respected elder anyway, if only for Critical Beatdown and the Ultramags....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:38 (twenty years ago)

yes odb & kool keith are a genuine symbols of sex & admiration on the same level as jim morrison, axl rose & iggy pop

― and what (ooo), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:39 (twenty years ago)

http://www.upshizzle.com/a/doggystyle.gif

― CERTAIN TYPE OF RAP LISTENER (whineyg), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:39 (twenty years ago)

matt im not denying the legacy of ultra-mag or ol dirty, but you cant deny most of their fans besides true skool cats are there for the freakshow

― and what (ooo), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:40 (twenty years ago)

gg allin might be one white performer who is actually just considered crazy

also odb might be received by some--even many--as tortured genius but there's far less discussion of his elaborate multi-syllable/slant rhymes than there has been about em's...

basically i think odb is smart too but a lot of people don't care about that aspect of his persona, whereas it is impossible to ignore em's "genius" factor

― hugaboo (space hard), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:40 (twenty years ago)

see the problem is not that kool keith isn't an admired sex symbol, but that jim morrison is.

― Zwan (miccio), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:40 (twenty years ago)

i anxiously await oliver stone's fawning biopic on dr octagon

― and what (ooo), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:41 (twenty years ago)

ethan I think what yr doin' here is basically sayin' "I hate weird shit, therefore people who like it are totally suspect" - can you at least allow for the possibility that people enjoy the way these artists write, think, and rap? I prefer most of the artists you're naming (cam'ron excepted, again) to the ones you tend to big-up, because I would much rather listen to somebody getting goofy/bizarre than to normal-person stuff. my tastes in other musics line up with this, it's not like I listen to mainstream stuff in all other fields and then prefer "weird" rap; I'd guess that the critics who're your foils on this thread are the same way, tending to like off-the-beaten-path/different-from-the-pack stuff.

yes odb & kool keith are a genuine symbols of sex & admiration on the same level as jim morrison, axl rose & iggy pop

the average age of people who consider any of those three a sex symbol today is 56 - you can't pit history against the present day, it's too umm weird

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:42 (twenty years ago)

John Lone gained 45 pounds for the role of Dan The Automator.

x-post

― Zwan (miccio), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:42 (twenty years ago)

problem is that jim morrison's sexiness is endlessly intellectualized vs kool keith is silly octagynocologist (still sexy tho)

― hugaboo (space hard), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:43 (twenty years ago)

(xpost) Comparing rappers to rockers in the sex symbol stakes is a non-starter because, in general, western culture thinks white men are more attractive than black men; you're dealing with an entirely different set of worms once you open that can.

― Dan (Let's Work Out The Apples Before Pulling In The Oranges) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:43 (twenty years ago)

matt im not denying the legacy of ultra-mag or ol dirty, but you cant deny most of their fans besides true skool cats are there for the freakshow
-- and what (an...), May 17th, 2006. (ooo)

that's true.

es odb & kool keith are a genuine symbols of sex & admiration on the same level as jim morrison, axl rose & iggy pop
-- and what (an...), May 17th, 2006. (ooo)

i see what yr saying, but a lot of iggy's appeal was based on his onstage antics (peanut butter, cutting himself, etc)...and there was definitely an element of how they marketed the stooges that was "man look at these crazy drug troglodytes from michigan that can't play their instruments"...I want to say that Bowie even said they reminded him of cavemen or something.....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:43 (twenty years ago)

Hate to display ignorance but could dude please explain how Houston suddenly becoming of critical interest, oddly at the same moment it became commercially successful, is any more racist than any other time a scene (or genre or sound or trend) has become widely discussed? Not to mention that I was hearing critics talk about Houston off-and-on for a good year before it "blew up" in the critisphere or whatever and I don't even pay that much attention to these things. (Eddy in the Voice, 2004: http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0415,eddy,52642,22.html. but maybe this is the moment you're talking about?)

― Eppy (Eppy), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:43 (twenty years ago)

Living in austin,tx, I'm still baffled at the love hipster kids here give to Houston rap. Every party I've been to in the past year, nothing but screwed rap. Not that the music is bad, but to me it would be like hearing ghetto tech at one of the same parties.

― Jacobs (LolVStein), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:44 (twenty years ago)

I anxiously await yr answering my question about all yr totally ridiculous "we all know why THEY are listening to this music" weapons-grade balonium.

"Brian Wilson doesn't cut it because his art didn't revolve around a crazy persona for most of his career. "

I don't know what Beach Boys records you listen to ("I'm Bugged at My Old Man"? "In My Room"? "Til I Die"? "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times"? ad nauseam) but the "tortured manchild" thing WAS - hell, it still is - his career persona.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:44 (twenty years ago)

btw Roky Erikson and Wesley Willis are TOTALLY good examples the more I think abt. them....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:46 (twenty years ago)

Good examples of what? Rock nerds liking the crazy-ass persona in general?

― Eppy (Eppy), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:47 (twenty years ago)

i don't think hipster houston rap love comes from the same racist archetypes that make hipster odb love suspect; hipster houston rap love is people wanting to be on the edge of an underground explosion...plus the culture is cohesive, including grills and drinks and cars, a whole iconography people can latch onto. that makes it fun, even if they don't relate to it in the sense that they lived it.

― hugaboo (space hard), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:49 (twenty years ago)

X's "motivations" for getting arrested don't change the issue of indie hipster reactions to his arrest.

the reaction in question is "wow, dude gets arrested constantly. what a fuck-up" and it's the same one they have toward pete doherty and courtney love.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:50 (twenty years ago)

^^^ xpost otm - its inoffensive southern rap fantasyland

― and what (ooo), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:51 (twenty years ago)

(The average Axl groupie is 56???? O how the mighty have fallen)

― Dan (Yikes) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:52 (twenty years ago)

what qualifies as offensive southern rap reality?

― Zwan (miccio), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:52 (twenty years ago)

Actual comment from avclub blog post:

******

As lame as an arrest as this is(How lame is a rappers arrest when it's the same thing Peter Buck was arrested for?) this may be one of the funniest images in the world.

"Excuse me sir, if you'd like to return to your seat, we're serving first class passengers drinks now"

"Bitch, can't tell a nigga like me what to do. I'll drink when I want to! Bark Bark!"

*******

Just people saying "what a fuck-up"? YOU DECIDE!

― hugaboo (space hard), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:52 (twenty years ago)

fritz did you read the blog post on the link?? indie dudes arent asking pete doherty & courtney love to behave MORE like caricatures

― and what (ooo), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:53 (twenty years ago)

xpost One of the Ying Yang twins is occasionally late with his credit card payments, but only because he loses them on the mail table.

― Eppy (Eppy), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:53 (twenty years ago)

xpost OMG PEOPLE SAY OFFENSIVE THINGS ON THE INTERNET

― Eppy (Eppy), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:54 (twenty years ago)

indie dudes arent asking pete doherty & courtney love to behave MORE like caricatures

alright, all you indie dudes out there who like your blacks as total caricatures and your white artists respectable are racists. shame on you indie dudes.

― Zwan (miccio), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:55 (twenty years ago)

btw Roky Erikson and Wesley Willis are TOTALLY good examples the more I think abt. them....

and Syd Barrett, and Skip Spence, and Scott Walker, and Jandek, and a long long list. I just think that, y'know, Ethan doesn't wanna allow for people actually enjoying odb records - this whole discussion is like a rockist paradise: "oh, this music doesn't suit my tastes, therefore no way people could actually like it" - that's offensive to me personally, almost! odb made really wonderful records, and just because one person doesn't like 'em doesn't mean that the only reason anybody ever did was some weird race/mental-health construct

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 19:57 (twenty years ago)

Relationship between craziness and art is (somewhat) complicated in rap music because there's a different, more direct relationship w/ the subconscious (note dirty and kool keith are both notorious for freestyling a lot of their verses, improvisation etc.)

Me and my friends are "guilty" (fuck you!) of listening to a lot of "CRAZY RAPPERS" I guess, but you know we don't really think of them that way. Mainstream conception of "crazy" is kinda ridiculous (everybody who doesn't fit in a box). I hear a sorority girl talking about how she knew someone who was "crazy" once, "like this person was totally bi-polar".. I smile like half my friends aren't bi-polar. Yeah, I've had plenty of conversations about the genius of Dirty's worldplay, or Keith's unique sense of time. They sound crazy sometimes, like Sun Ra I guess, because they're willing to do shit that other people would never think of. So I take comfort in what you might call their "craziness".. I don't look down on William Blake either. SOmetimes you gotta have visions to have a vision, you know.

xpost like crazy, obvs

― ghost dong (Sonny A.), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:00 (twenty years ago)

"all you indie dudes out there who like your blacks as total caricatures and your white artists respectable are racists. shame on you indie dudes."

You could just as well replace all of ethan's posts with this.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:03 (twenty years ago)

Also, Thelonius Monk anyone?

― ghost dong (Sonny A.), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:04 (twenty years ago)

jack kerouac's riffs on Monk's craziness, anyone?

just for the sake of argument

― hugaboo (space hard), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:05 (twenty years ago)

I'm kind of surprised no one's said boo about Scott Stapp yet (that I've noticed).

― Dan (Not Indie Enough, I Guess) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:12 (twenty years ago)

What puts me out about what I've seen in a lot of the kids here is the irony involved. The idea that it's a joke for the person to like this music due to it's foul language or crazy persona. With a lot of the parties or club I've been to recently where houston rap is played, there is a sense of slumming it or acting as someone your not (gehtto) that rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure if it's racist.

― Jacobs (LolVStein), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:18 (twenty years ago)

I'm kind of surprised no one's said boo about Scott Stapp yet (that I've noticed).

or Chan Marshall, who's selling about as well as most of the underground "crazy" rapper dudes

― Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:21 (twenty years ago)

I REALLY can't believe this thread got this far with no one mentioning fucking OZZY! (me included)....esp. after The Osbournes and everything, but yeah back as far as the bat biting and everyone spitting in a cup and Ozzy drinking it and him cutting up dobermans onstage w/a chainsaw....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:34 (twenty years ago)

With a lot of the parties or club I've been to recently where houston rap is played, there is a sense of slumming it or acting as someone your not (gehtto) that rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure if it's racist.

It is.

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:36 (twenty years ago)

wrt this thread, I don't see how, say, gangsta rap isn't as gimmick-based as "crazy" music of any genre... or how it has any more to do with reality

― xave (xave), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:41 (twenty years ago)

I REALLY can't believe this thread got this far with no one mentioning fucking OZZY! (me included)....

I never fucked Ozzy.

― Dan (Thank You, I'm Here All Weekend) Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:46 (twenty years ago)

that's a good point, xave

― Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:47 (twenty years ago)

It seems possible that there are different personas at work here as far how "craziness" is viewed w/ black and white artists. The latter (Brian Wilson, Syd Barrett, Daniel Johnston, Roky Erickson, Jandek, Tori Amos, Chan Marshall) are seen as damaged and vulnerable, childlike, deserving of sympathy, while the black artists are seen as more comical. This goes beyond rap too -- Whitney Houston, R. Kelly, Martin Lawrence. There are exceptions, plenty of them, but it seems a fair statement to me (is this what Ethan is saying?)

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:50 (twenty years ago)

It can be just as gimmicky but 'how it has more to do with reality' = its entire approach is based on the idea that it is portraying reality (even if it isn't much of the time). So the racial issues with gangsta rap are very different, and have to do with a different group of rap fans, one that doesn't usually overlap with critics.

― deeej, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:51 (twenty years ago)

(xp's to xave)

― deeej, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:51 (twenty years ago)

"is this what Ethan is saying?"

no ethan is saying "indie kids be racist" and has constructed an elaborate strawman argument to somehow try to "prove" it.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 21:00 (twenty years ago)

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