e.g. "it's a novelty song" xpost
― Cunga, Sunday, 17 January 2010 22:23 (fourteen years ago) link
enlightening music discussion herein: TS Progress vs Novelty
― Do the english boil pizza? (acoleuthic), Sunday, 17 January 2010 22:24 (fourteen years ago) link
featuring the most significant LJ vs Tim F bandy, which he won, because he has yet to lose an argument on ILX (guys have nabisco and Tim ever directly disagreed about something here, and if so LINK PLZ)
― Do the english boil pizza? (acoleuthic), Sunday, 17 January 2010 22:26 (fourteen years ago) link
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Gg2kY-fs_gmmiM%3Ahttp://www.traileraddict.com/content/paramount-pictures/faceoff.jpg
― supra-max (ice cr?m), Sunday, 17 January 2010 22:27 (fourteen years ago) link
also white elephants v termites
― plaxico (I know, right?), Sunday, 17 January 2010 22:46 (fourteen years ago) link
Relevantly to this discussion, Nabisco and I had a disagreement back in 2001 over whether the return to live-ness in rock constituted by The Strokes, Life Without Buildings and oh probably some other bands constituted a "new" or at least very important thing.
I was sort of on (what I would imagine to be) your side with regard to that issue Louis, arguing that this apparent transformation of the indie rock landscape was just a perspectival trick and was more about a small shift in the discourse of rock crit than a change in the substantive music.
So I'm not inclined to dismiss all "the emperor has no clothes!" arguments when it comes to "progress".
Nabisco was partly right though in that, while there are always records in every style, the way in which discourse sbapes itself around certain concurrent stylistic tendencies allows those records to punch above their weight in our collective and personal conceptions of what a genre (esp. one as amorphous as "indie rock") means or stands for at any given point in time.
Vampire Weekend are part of what feels a bit like a tidal ebb in the other direction for rock crit discourse (and hence which records count as important in the indie-rock landscape), which is now more in favour of eclectic maximalist overproduction than it has been at any time since pre-The Stokes. There were records in both of these categories (and at every point in between) throughout this whole period, of course.
To tie it all back together, one thing I like about this incarnation of the over-production aesthetic, if we can call it that, is that it's been decoupled from the stylistic emphasis on pomp and grandeur that seemed so rife in inde-rock at the end of the 90s - even on winsome records like The Soft Bulletin. So Contra is widescreen without being "widescreen" as such.
In this it reminds me quite a bit (though only slightly on a strict stylistic level) of The Beta Band's excellent The Hot Shots II.
― Tim F, Sunday, 17 January 2010 22:49 (fourteen years ago) link
Tim, you'd really call Vampire Weekend over-produced? Maximalist? Really?
― rennavate, Sunday, 17 January 2010 23:24 (fourteen years ago) link
No -- he said VW incarnate that aesthetic.
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 17 January 2010 23:28 (fourteen years ago) link
Ahh, you're right. Misread it. And I think Tim makes good points, now that I understand what he's getting at.
― rennavate, Sunday, 17 January 2010 23:36 (fourteen years ago) link
Yeah, to be precise, VW benefit from the critical endorsement of that aesthetic, but one of the nice things about them is their lightness of touch - Contra has a much cleaner and less cluttered approach than, say, Merriweather Post Pavillion or Oracular Spectacular or the new Yeasayer or etc. etc.
― Tim F, Sunday, 17 January 2010 23:47 (fourteen years ago) link
or they just don't do as much drugs as the hippies
― tramp steamer, Sunday, 17 January 2010 23:57 (fourteen years ago) link
Well that's maybe the root cause, though generally the equivs of preppie dudes at my school did much more (and more hardcore) drugs than the hippies did.
― Tim F, Monday, 18 January 2010 00:00 (fourteen years ago) link
Yeah, they manage to sound maximalist without actually being maximalist. I see what you're saying.
― rennavate, Monday, 18 January 2010 00:00 (fourteen years ago) link
one thing that kinda struck me abt this while i was enjoying a fukkin harpsichord solo was how this is so effective bcuz it feels so external & so much about style, and that this is why i like it -- harpsichord solo strikes me as a kind of wes anderson emotional heart-on-sleeve seriousness that is so blahahahha right now when i hear indie & v weekend's distance & affectedness means they're less ... i dont know ... not 'honest' but less trying to convey this idea of total openness, its guarded music, it feels cool & outward-facing rather than inward & emo
maybe this is obvious shit to ppl who listen to this stuff all the time but i like that these dudes have for a lack of a better word swag
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:11 (fourteen years ago) link
harpsichord solo SHOULD strike me that way -- but in v weekend's case it doesnt
How is style "external"? Or am I misunderstanding you? Style, as I define it, is an expression of personality.
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:12 (fourteen years ago) link
well of course -- im saying that their style feels more outward-facing & guarded & engaged w/ the outside world instead of the sort of unapologetic 1000 hugs from lightning bugs confessional indie style i usually associate w/ dudes who are 'precious' & have harpsichord solos
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:15 (fourteen years ago) link
i like that they are unapologetically oblique & guarded & aiming for sounding 'cool' instead of being all 'we r modern bros always revealing our ''true feelings''' which is just as much of a front, but it pretends it isnt
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:16 (fourteen years ago) link
h8 vampy w/e
― free the charmless but occasionally brilliant Dom Passantino (history mayne), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:18 (fourteen years ago) link
Tim, your long post there has actively made me want to listen to this album, and not (just) because of the Hot Shots II comparison (a crisper, tidier indie-rock album than most, and one I adore). Much as some stylistic maximalisation is to my taste (albeit more with song-structure than sonic clutter...or at least more with sonic contrast than sonic multiplicity), there's something about an ambitious and boldly-realised yet slightly...austere, uncluttered piece of music that greatly appeals. If VW embody this to some extent I'd really quite like to hear the new album. I doubt I'll be moved to analyse it deeply or work out what its existence means to the wider world of indie-rock (my two complaints here) but if it works as art, as entertainment, then I'll be happy we had this discussion.
I think Deej is talking about austerity too. Music which is aware of its own limitations, or rather its own purpose?
― Do the english boil pizza? (acoleuthic), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:19 (fourteen years ago) link
entry leveler ^^^^
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:19 (fourteen years ago) link
jesus its just a chill album dude dont overthink it
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:20 (fourteen years ago) link
many x-posts - Is Wes Anderson emotional heart-on-sleeve seriousness?
r|t|c complained upthread (w/r/t the first album) that he enjoyed VW until he realised they reminded him of Darjeeling et. al. I can see the argument for both being kind of whimsically affected.
Is yr argument that Vampire Weekend don't hit you over the head with their lightness-concealing-depth strategy in the same manner as Wes or (music-wise) Jon Brion?
For me the other distinction might be that VW don't tap into that (very indie) childlikeness-as-emotional-authenticity idea that Anderson def. does. Like, when VW are being heartfelt "emotional", it's in the same adult way as every other pose.
― Tim F, Monday, 18 January 2010 00:20 (fourteen years ago) link
I think I read you rightly, given the Owl City ref.
that last point you made is what im trying to say
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:21 (fourteen years ago) link
i guess i didnt associate it solely with childlikeness/infantalism thing tho that does enter into it
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:22 (fourteen years ago) link
the real advantage of an ivy league education (sorry, wes)
― velko, Monday, 18 January 2010 00:22 (fourteen years ago) link
i just never get the feeling that they're trying to aim for next level shit, they're just carving out a space that sounds like **themselves** in a unique, stylized way & doesnt try to front on being progressive, nor is it on some 'back to basics' shit, its actually kind of what i like about my favorite rap performers (quik) or R&B stars (maxwell) from last year, the idea that real 'progress' can come just as easily from becoming yourself rather than consciously trying to push things "forward"
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:24 (fourteen years ago) link
not that i like it as much as those artists by any means -- but it works in the same way imo
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:25 (fourteen years ago) link
Multiple x-post again - Well it's complex. Obv Wes has the arch wry adultness that we ("we"?) associate with VW. But there's always a moment in his films where it's like "but seriously, what if we just dropped all that and held hands, wouldn't life be better and much simpler?"
Whereas I think VW like the arch wry adultness, they don't perceive it as a Weberian cage so much.
― Tim F, Monday, 18 January 2010 00:26 (fourteen years ago) link
right yeah that their art is kind of the art of style & that arch wry adultness, that they recognize they are performers & arent on some misguided search for real meaning 'behind' it, that the style is substance
i dunno im just kinda spitballin
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:28 (fourteen years ago) link
like deej implied, these guys have always sounded like moderately intelligent, engaged twentysomethings -- the sort that take their record collections and clothes very seriously. These are good things.
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:28 (fourteen years ago) link
(maxwell may have been a bad example)
Yeah, I like that, Deej (coupla xposts now! well like four) Self-possession can be a good attribute to have when releasing music that aligns with hundreds of other records in a year; you can't be accused of being 'all the same' if you're yourself, if you keep a conscious distance. I think I do like some music that behaves in this manner, as well as some that attempts more consciously to push both self and boundaries into new places.
― Do the english boil pizza? (acoleuthic), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:28 (fourteen years ago) link
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, January 18, 2010 12:28 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
well, not really, no.
― free the charmless but occasionally brilliant Dom Passantino (history mayne), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:30 (fourteen years ago) link
You're right. Unemployment and Mao posters are.
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:32 (fourteen years ago) link
no, not them either alfred. idk, not being mediocre preppy types would set them right up in my view. caring about clothes and being moderately intelligent -- wonderful attributes in a flatmate.
― free the charmless but occasionally brilliant Dom Passantino (history mayne), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:37 (fourteen years ago) link
oh my fucking god why is every poster with usually-decent taste in this thread repping for this TERRIBLE band? you have lost your goddamn minds
― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:37 (fourteen years ago) link
― not a playa but i ilx a lot (deej), Sunday, January 17, 2010 7:11 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
otm its is the saving grace of this band - its also part of what pisses people off abt them so hard
― supra-max (ice cr?m), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:42 (fourteen years ago) link
hi, lex!
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:42 (fourteen years ago) link
these feebs don't fucking have any swag
― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:44 (fourteen years ago) link
just when i thought we'd put animal collective down, along come this year's bête noire. fucking hate this band's music so much. it's not even the preppy thing, though the cardigans are an abomination
― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:46 (fourteen years ago) link
"this year"
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:46 (fourteen years ago) link
privileged swag having feebs, destined hatred
― supra-max (ice cr?m), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:47 (fourteen years ago) link
A vegetarian since the invasionShe’d never seen the word BOMBSShe’d never seen the word BOMBS blown upTo 96 point FuturaShe’d never seen an AKIn a yellowy Day Glo displayA t-shirt so lovely it turned all the history books grey
This bit totally ruined 'Holiday' for me.
― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:48 (fourteen years ago) link
why? M.I.A. coulda written it!
― Hell is other people. In an ILE film forum. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:49 (fourteen years ago) link
^^^ I immediately thought this too.
― Tim F, Monday, 18 January 2010 00:53 (fourteen years ago) link
there is basically no way that anyone w/decent aesthetic standards should be able to get past THOSE LYRICS and THAT VOICE
― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:54 (fourteen years ago) link
h8 when people talk abt fontz
― supra-max (ice cr?m), Monday, 18 January 2010 00:55 (fourteen years ago) link
I knew this would turn clusterfucky.
― Mordy, Monday, 18 January 2010 00:55 (fourteen years ago) link