The All-New STYLUS.

nick you are being so dense on this thread.

not many other peoples are

by "people" you AGAIN mean "rock crit types"!!!! r&b albums sell fuckloads to their core constituency, a demographic that rock crit types essentially ignore because it doesn't tend to get involved in rock criticism and WHO CAN BLAME THEM. but i'm sure the people who buy r&b albums think of it as an albums genre!

and there's nothing wrong with singles genres if it's actually applicable, eg in techno, but just as you wouldn't write off a genuinely great techno album qua album if one happened along, responding to people saying "there have been some amazing r&b albums released in the past decade and it's a shame they haven't been recognised" with "LALALA IT'S A SINGLES GENRE SO IT DOESN'T MATTER" is wilfully obtuse

At this point I'm just trying to cause you an aneurysm.

But Erykah Badu and Maxwell in particular have a sort of muso-cred that sits them outside this debate really. They're not really thought of in the same way as commercial rnb. I can't imagine the Nick Hornby's of the world having any issue with either, except they'd call them "soul" to separate them from the rest.

(Also arrangement, production, etc is a massive point of difference here that can't be ignored)

(xpost - but these 'consensuses' are such a limited snapshot of the wider picture, that's why this whole argument is taking place! Consensuses that are essentially self-selecting don't reflect anything other than themselves)

x-post

That exclusion isn't unique to R&B and hip-hop, Lex - country and metal are commercially and socially important genres that tend not even to make it to singles lists, with maybe the odd token inclusion on album lists, with Metallica as Jay-Z, Mastodon as Rihanna, and so on ...

I mean, I could go round the Tory party conference and come back with a "consensus" on public spending but it wouldn't be an accurate reflection of public opinion.

i agree - i wish more country and metal fans would join in with this, ao it could be made obvious just how narrow these supposedly authoritative lists really are! though r&b has so much more mainstream visibility than either that it seems extra weird when it's overlooked

xp

Mastodon as Rihanna

I'm imagining them doing "Umbrella" now...

yeah see also ppl who go 'the production on this r&b track sounds like aphex twin' meaning it's a bit squelchy & has some weird backwards edits coz the only twin song they've ever even heard was windowlicker

x-post Not in the States, Lex! Plenty of mainstream visibility for both there!

There's as much mainstram visibility for country as there is for rnb, in the States at least. The difference is maybe that country and metal have their own critical infrastructure, hip-hop too, in a way that rnb seemingly never has. Why that's the case is an interesting tangential question.

(Also jazz also classical fwiw but they're so far outside this field that it doesn't seem to matter for anyone invested in either)

you dont see enough books on tape on these best album lists

Supposedly authoritative lists being narrow cos the rnb fan didn't bother to submit a ballot.

The difference is maybe that country and metal have their own critical infrastructure, hip-hop too, in a way that rnb seemingly never has

yeah this IS a really interesting question - i don't pretend to have any answers but i suspect that it's partly because it's so female-coded - maybe the most female-coded genre of popular music? cf discussions passim about why critics are disproportionately male...

answer to that already given. coz men can't listen to r&b without their sexuality being called into question by the boner police

Are you into football, Karen? RnB is overwhelmingly the music of choice for that notoriously gay-friendly demographic, professional footballers.

(Nick we're not talking about the Stylus decade any more, you don't need to be so defensive)

(Just trying to cause that aneurysm.)

answer to that already given. coz men can't listen to r&b without their sexuality being called into question by the boner police

― Karen Tregaskin, Saturday, January 16, 2010 8:50 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont know what its like in the UK but i have never known this to be true

x-post

Further to MattDC ... Several have even tried to set up R&B labels. Kevin Campbell was going to sign Mark Morrison to his. Andy Cole named his first son Devanté after fella from Jodeci.

x-posts that was a joke about mr blueski policing my boner upthread!

-----

this is something interesting that my riot grrrl ex pointed out when we first moved in together and we were comparing our record collections for collation and filing

my record collection was at that point 99% male. her record collection was about 75% female or at least female fronted (i used to ask why there were boys in huggy bear but apparently i'm too dumb to understand)

i said yeah, at my school if you listened to girly music that meant you were a poof. my ex said at her school if you listened only to girls and didn't at least fancy one of duran duran or him out of wham then that meant you were a lesbian

neither of us really got this. she said in a hetereo-normative world identity is defined and codified through music and genre as part of that identity. so how come women prove their hetero-normative thru listening to men and men prove their hetereo-normative by listening to ....... men? didn't get that part

In my view if there was any lame strawman associated w/ dudes listening to r'n'b it would be that of the Smoove B loverman type - I don't think 'lol gay' would be that prominent a notion

mind you we didn't have any lol girls at my school

if i didn't have sisters i'd think girls weren't actually invented until 1987

Karen I'm pretty sure steve's comment wasn't calling yr sexuality into question BTW.

i dont know what its like in the UK but i have never known this to be true

funny, i figured they weren't from/in the UK because they write 'chicks' and 'boner'

anyway i think a lot of us do tend to have far less interest in or patience for Country and Metal than what's more commonly accepted or labelled as Black Music (new or old). not that there aren't songs from both i do like. i think the main reasons as to why they're marginalised are quite straightfoward/understandable tho e.g. Metal's sonic 'extremity' and general aggression, and Country's perceived conservatism (decent gender balance notwithstanding). i'd suggest rap+R&B's remarkable occupation and domination of what Pop tended to entail in the US from the mid 90s (or at least early 00s) onwards led to a negative reaction from too many rock critics used to dismissing pop (based on the manufactured/commercialised criticism which presumably took hold in the 80s with digital) in the charts already (as Matt says, the likes of Badu and Maxwell are probably taken more seriously...tho not to the extent that they make many lists but there are other obstacles for them e.g. stereotypes similar to why many people aren't into smooth Jazz).

i've always had problems with albums anyway so addressing the issue on whether some genres are better suited to the format is tough. they all equally suck :)

The only real music is actual ambient sound produced randomly by one's environment. Everything else = COMMERCIAL ROCKIST SELLOUT. There, I've spoken.

^^^ Sockpuppet

next time i'll be sure to write benynes and tuss instead of internet lolspeak for the sockspotters!

if karen's not a sock he's still an unbearable poster to read & i dont really care if he thinks im so mean that he'll never listen to R&B again.

lol @ argument reducing to "maybe if R&B fans werent so mean, there would be more of them!!!" ooh point scored

i will say that sometimes something that can occasionally frustrate w/ the lex's writing is he wants to have his cake & eat it to, to be able to correct the structural inequities that do unfairly malign R&B while still occasionally indulging in the kinds of back-patting "most avant-garde beats on offer" like R&B fans care about having the most avant garde beats (is that even an accurate statement? what does it even mean?) etc

^^this is the kind of thing that bothers me most but prolly bc i've been guilty of it in the past and the narcissism of small differences etc

The difference is maybe that country and metal have their own critical infrastructure, hip-hop too, in a way that rnb seemingly never has

i think the main reasons as to why they're marginalised are quite straightfoward/understandable tho e.g. Metal's sonic 'extremity' and general aggression, and Country's perceived conservatism (decent gender balance notwithstanding). i'd suggest rap+R&B's remarkable occupation and domination of what Pop tended to entail in the US from the mid 90s (or at least early 00s) onwards led to a negative reaction from too many rock critics used to dismissing pop

To some extent country and metal have not only their own critical infrastructure but their own self-selecting community/class divide (class in the Frank Kogan sort of way, I suppose). Country and Metal's critical infrastructure exists not only as a result of marginalization by 'mainstream' criticism but also as an outgrowth of their own isolation from the mainstream by choice, perhaps?

In America country music's division from the broader pop market isn't just a result of past or present critical derision but also a host of political, class based, regional, etc. factors none of which are wholly explanatory but which lend themselves to the creation of a parallel cultural viewpoint.

Metal presumably functions differently in the specifics but with the same end result - neither has any DESIRE to capture the mainstream's affections in so far as country VIEWS itself as the silent majority/heartland to some extent and metal conceptualizes itself in opposition to the mainstream - as did rap as did punk as did any countercultural movement. 'Mainstream' criticism was slow to embrace rap as a 'serious' genre 'worthy' of discussion and thus a critical establishment for rap maybe developed out of need. Punk and its offshoots gradually turned into the current all-enveloping 'indie', which has been PBS-ed into the critical mainstream, explicitly linked to the rockist discourse of progress and so forth (and tbh was picked up by mainstream white critics much faster) so never reallllly required a separate critical establishment. I'm not sure why metal has remained divided while punk was coopted/embraced. Someone with a better knowledge of this should (and WILL) tell me why all of the above is totally wrong.

But I guess um...R&B doesn't really have a self-segregating/identifying community. R&B functions as pop in the marketplace of music ideas - it WANTS to capture the mainstream, it has no investment in walling itself off - whether out of a desire for 'purity' 'authenticity' or any other bullshit notions that drive underground scenes. Mainstream criticism though has always been heavily grounded in the legacy of the 60s 70s etc. and punk/college rock's evolution into no stakes NPR/PBS-ified indie has kind of captured that critical sphere over the past decade.

As R&B functions as a 'default' option sort of in the pop marketplace (to the point that pop = R&B frequently in normal conversation) the need to champion it to the public doesn't really exist (or isn't as broadly perceived as necessary) which is one of the things that for better or for worse creates a lot of critical/cultural establishments? Punk, indie, country, rap criticism all at some point felt the need to PROVE something (legitimacy, realness, worth) to their cultural predecessors/antagonists/rivals. R&B is such an assured and confident presence culturally that outside of critical circles (where R&B's champions feel outgunned and isolated sometimes per The Lex) there isn't much of a feeling that its success as a genre is at stake or that there is a pressing need to rep for it. Maybe?

What does mainstream mean? Does it mean "music consumed by people without tribal loyalties"? Or "music you might expect to hear on daytime radio"? Or "music consumed by vast numbers of people"? Metal is mainstream by the last of those, country by two of those across huge swathes of the US. Perhaps it's that country and metal have created their own mainstreams, and their own extremities. Metal, say, is not in and of itself extreme, but it has adherents who value extremity. However, anyone who goes to metal gigs knows there are plenty of people there who don't exist in a self-segregating community, who are not metal genre loyalists above all, but who like the act they are seeing. I'm sure plenty of the country audience buy albums that aren't country ... so I don't think the argument that they are special cases where the critical invisibility is inevitable - unlike R&B - quite stands up.

PS I'd say metal, above all genres, has historically valued the mainstream - rap and metal are surely the two genres that have traditionally valued commercial success for its own sake, and the rewards that success brings

Lumping country and metal together qua "non-mainstream" is pretty weird, I think. Remember that Garth Brooks is the best selling solo artist in US history. That's not "creating its own mainstream", that is the mainstream.

If you're talking about "critical mainstream" it still doesn't work. Country artists haven't traditionally been looked down upon by critics. Each of the Rolling Stones Record Guides have lots and lots of country artists reviewed (many with some very good reviews). Maybe they're looked down upon by the indie rock critical mainstream but then you're just talking about genre specialists.

Euler OTM ... the central point is that "indie" critics (using the term broadly) have over the past 20 years come to dominate mainstream publications, and then the more widely read critical sites. Hence indie has become the mainstream in critical discourse, while it's nowhere near the mainstream in commercial discourse,

Fair enough. In that case, using Euler's measures (just by way of thought experiment), are R&B albums more or less likely to be reviewed/reviewed well by Rolling Stones Record Guides or comparable parts of the "critical mainstream"?

Is the issue that R&B is actually underrepresented critical, or undervalued critically? Or is it just that there is less space/call for R&B genre specialism (compared to say Country or Metal or Indie or what-have-you, which both appear in the centre of critical discourse and in their own critical spheres)?

Because while Beyonce or Amerie or whoever's albums are turning up in droves on these list-making exercises, I feel like they don't get a worse rap than most other albums in regular review season - whether courtesy Rolling Stone, Christgau, The Guardian or anyone else.

*aren't turning up in droves (clearly)

thats really not true. you'll get a few token records in every year (though never at number one of course) the genre is never represented to any depth

Sorry. Like I said above, typo. During regular review season they get more than token coverage, is what I meant. And often v. good reviews.

And again, the question of what it is about lists like these that result in underrepresentation of R&B is interesting, but in regularly running reviews I think there are probably as many well-reviewed/graded R&B albums in generalist publications (NYTimes, Guardian, Rolling Stone, whatever) as there are well-reviewed indie albums or well-reviewed rap albums.

And yes that statement is totally unfounded. When I have a spare moment I will scan through NYT and Rolling Stone archives of last yr or Metacritic or something to try and back that up.

yeah thats deceptive though. the center around music crit in generalist mags rotates remains indie, and marginally popular performer w/in that milieu are way way way more likely to get coverage than marginally popular but equally compelling artists in r&b/hiphop/metal/country/dance

Hmm. I'll buy that.

center around which

I wonder, does "mainstream rock" - say, Nickleback, The Fray, etc. - have a critical centre either? The successful stuff gets reviewed much like Beyonce or Rihanna get reviewed, but yeah it occurs to me that in order to have a substantial discourse that would, say, produce either prominent genre specialists or (similarly) promote coverage of the less successful stuff, you need to have some strong sense of being a community apart from the mainstream - which country, rap, indie, dance music and metal all have, regardless of their actual level of success, which might be enough to qualify them as mainstream-in-fact.

This goes back to my point above, that the first, founding conceptual operation of music crit is to establish a sense of distance from "just" mainstream music consumption - which is different from saying that music crit is always defensive - much specialist music crit is or appears to be entirely oblivious to the existence of the mainstream.

But at any rate I agree that the conflation of R&B with "the mainstream" may be part of why it falls between these stools as such.

Although I do think gender is a big issue here. As I've said before I suspect no music is more regularly and casually critically maligned than "women's music" of the non-indie/non-R&B variety.

Obv R&B does have genre-specialist critics, but not in the numbers you'd expect proportionate to its commercial success or even - on a tracks basis at least - performance in polls like this.

If I can be snarky for a second, I would note that I don't like the way these threads seem to devolve into referendums about one person's taste, esp. recently - Joe The Plumber tactics IMO.

The issues raised in this thread are (or can be) much more interesting than whether one person is right or wrong in their appreciation of X.