The All-New STYLUS.

emo occupies the same space as Goth

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080503015204AAnJNeP

x-posts

wow this article http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/ridiculed--belittled/Content?oid=924107 is really amazing

maybe it deserves its own thread

those last 2 or 3 paragraphs really hit on what it is that i like about this music. the production is simply astonishing. it's textural and lush and multilayered

i think alot of people of my generation had their opinion of contemporary r&b formed in the early 90s when it was to be fair in a bit of a dire state. at least production wise it did nothing for me and seemed to centre mostly around whitney houston / mariah carey style vocal acrobatics matched with really cheesy sounds which just didn't do anything for me

there was a distinct change which i experienced around the turn of the millennium where the arrangements suddenly became really really interesting

Production capabilities, already phenomenal, climbed into the stratosphere. The result is music of painstaking craft: layers of sound morph and twist through multiple bridges and intricate arrangements while a multitracked vocalist sings rings around herself.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this to me sounds like the most interesting thing in the galaxy and makes me want to hear the music that inspired this purple prose (and read more of this crit's writing)

maybe that's me rewriting the rules of the game to enshrine my personal philosophy or what-i-like in music but this is the stuff that i'm looking for

It is indeed a very good article, but there's a sticking point in there that a think a lot of poptimists have often (certainly not always) been ambivalent about addressing, namely the very vehicle of top 40 radio -- especially given the well-observed point of r'n'b as a means of reaching to/standing for a wide and potentially otherwise voiceless audience -- as an entrenched business with its own particular goals and needs, namely making cash no matter what. The author gets close with "Personally, I find this straightforward embrace of commercialism refreshing" as well as noting the multiplicity of professionals involved in constructing the songs, but I almost want him to tease out his own implications of dealing with said system and the attendant gatekeepers that much more. (Puts me in mind of a legendary Martin Gore comment: "If you call yourself a pop band, you can get away with murder.")

Double x-post: Not really meant to suggest that all new genres are the same as old genres, I don't think - more that the same basic structure of cultural options reconstitutes itself, with particular sonic or stylistic signifiers floating within the structure to form new combinations.

Double x-post: Not really meant to suggest that all new genres are the same as old genres, I don't think - more that the same basic structure of cultural options reconstitutes itself, with particular sonic or stylistic signifiers floating within the structure to form new combinations.

― Tim F, Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:34 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark

tbh i think i'd heed the point more if simey (or you -- no offence!) lived in the uk. i don't see an obvious continuity between most of them. i don't think there is a modern equivalent to the mod scene -- in terms of, well, anality.

im sure there are some real r/n/b heads who are prissy about style details, but not in the same way or for the same reasons. there has been social change among young people (and other people too) in the last 40 years: more of them go to university, for one thing.

More of them wear their fucking jeans halfway down their skinny buttockless arses too.

x-post Yes, and I'd say it's precisely those social changes which tend to result in the real changes in music "overall" over time (i.e. the emergence and disappearance of particular sensibilities) rather than specific stylistic development within music itself, let alone music critic debates.

actually really tired of people making out like R&B production is phenomenal etc. when it really isn't standout from genres. that applies to all aspects of it i think. not to take anything away from it, just let's be real here.

i'm not sure it really "improved" or "caught up" in these respects either (re-incorporating electro influence or whatever) but then i would rep for Guy and other early 90s RnB.

obv some people belittle RnB generally from that perspective so the above article makes sense in trying to convert sceptics, but still.

compared to yr average indie-pop (actual indie as opposed to landfill kind) band r&b production *is* phenomenal

Blueski: it's an article that's no less carefully crafted than any apologia for any other genre you might care to describe. High points and key themes are emphasized, problematic songs or sentiments or elements of the listening experience are acknowledged briefly and then steered clear from, etc. etc. That's no sin, otherwise we might as well all go home, but it is a portrayal through a lens. (Perhaps the most noticeably omission is also universal -- the risk of something 'phenomenal' by any description becoming too familiar and rote with overlistening, though ultimately that also depends a lot of things in a listener.)

xpost

The production aesthetics of Indie vs. R&B are so different that it is hard to compare. A lot of Indie music embraces a lo-fi or naturalistic or noisy approach to recording that probably sounds like "bad" production from the viewpoint of other genres. Apples to oranges...

one thing to be wary of is *only* appreciating r&b through its production - this is a huge factor in its diminished critical appreciation in recent years, as critics who seemingly only prized it for "innovative beats" and who needed obvious auteur figures like timbaland or the neptunes have become disappointed with how it's progressed since they fell off

i mean i completely disagree that early 90s r&b was in any way a low point!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ9HG0nGe-g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYwL-FzFDKQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGXxcSdsXJ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSIBVRP2G-U

i could go ON AND ON like erykah badu

this is exactly right, also i think its not going too far to say that the timbaland lust that happened at the end of the 90's was partly due to the fact that his aaliyah tracks in particular had a lot in common with idm at the time and that appreciating rnb because it sounds like somthing other than rnb maybe isnt the best angle

but that's *my* personal philosophy behind why i like what i like

'production' values and how they are used

this is what informs my personal decisions about why i don't like large swathes of indie and what i do like when i like r&b (or dance or rock or pop or whatever else i find i like in varying genres)

i don't have any particular allegiance to any genre any more i've found

Trying to remember who made the comment that folks who latched on to 'something other than r'n'b' singles didn't know how to deal with the long/slow ballads on the albums (whether also released as singles or not).

ok but that doesn't mean that production before timbaland were bad, it just means they had less in common with a certain idea of "good production"

Trying to remember who made the comment that folks who latched on to 'something other than r'n'b' singles didn't know how to deal with the long/slow ballads on the albums (whether also released as singles or not).

yeah i always found it sickening whenever reviews of r&b albums would cream themselves - rightly - over the bangers but dismiss the ballads completely (even when the ballads WERE bad - beyoncé's first album, i'm looking at you - the criticisms never got to why they were bad!)

also its been said a billion times before, but for the one genre of music dominated by women to be lauded for the men behind the scenes pulling the strings is pretty inevitable but gross

i can't stand rock ballads either

does that make me a bad person?

I want to return to something Tim F said a few hours ago, namely, "it becomes "music criticism" [of R&B] in the strong sense when I incorporate into that discussion an awareness of the prevailing critical suspicion of that style of songwriting." As a consumer but not producer of music criticism, this seems wrong as an aim (I am not sure that Tim is offering it as an aim, so consider this a request for clarification). Good crit of R&B would avoid this kind of double-consciousness and would take for granted that R&B songwriting is fully worthy of appreciation, even by the sort of person who would bother reading music crit. Defensiveness is never a turn-on. Say what's great about the music (or what's not). Create the framing for what you do by doing it, not taking for granted trad rock crit's framing.

Certain music fans have ALWAYS dismissed ballads, in every genre. I think part of my... semi-disdain for proto-typical ballads comes from a lot of the theatre work when I was younger and the idea that it was easier to make an audience cry with melancholy than with laughter or joy.

I am imagining a young Mr. Mouthy singing "Send in the Clowns" and his audience bawling with delight.

I've said for years that the average indie fan would probably love a prototypical r'n'b / pop / dance / whatever they should stereotypically 'dislike' song if you wrapped it up in a prototypical 'indie' sonic aesthetic. i.e. Travis covering Britney. I maintain that most people can't tell the difference between 'indie type songwriting' and 'rnb type songwriting' without the aid of big fat sonic and visual signifiers.

I once did a monologue about Tupperware that managed to make middle aged women both cry and lol.

Cry with sadness, I should add.

also its been said a billion times before, but for the one genre of music dominated by women to be lauded for the men behind the scenes pulling the strings is pretty inevitable but gross

yeah the gender-coding of r&b and the fact that its dominant audience is young black women has a lot to do with its critical sidelining

i think a lot of (socially awkward, emotionally retarded) rock critics feel really uncomfortable when asked to confront their emotions with the frankness that r&b often demands tbh

the idea that it was easier to make an audience cry with melancholy than with laughter or joy

what a fucking weird idea!

also its been said a billion times before, but for the one genre of music dominated by women to be lauded for the men behind the scenes pulling the strings is pretty inevitable but gross

― plaxico (I know, right?), Thursday, 14 January 2010 16:36 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

isn't it a bit sexist for you to assume that *all* the production and songwriting and string-pulling is always done by men?

I am neither socially awkward or emotionally retarded. Sometimes I don't relate to the emotions delivered in r'n'b because the delivery seems either forced or alien. Mostly, though, the sonics just don't appeal to me.

what a fucking weird idea!

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Thursday, 14 January 2010 17:43 (1 minute ago)

It was a pretty standard idea in theatre studies.

xpost i guess he's just talking abt timbaland + the neptunes so

About this 'alas poor Tupperware' speech.

saying all the lauding is for men

'Twas about a divorced man whose wife had run off with someone she'd met at a Tupperware party.

The Ice Cream Storm

i had this conv lately with a friend where i was all fuck u keri hilson was a songwriter b4 she had her own hits but then i realised that was the wrong argument, keri hilson isn't awesome bc she co-wrote break the ice, she is awesome because she is awesome

Results 1 - 10 of about 236 for "comedy is harder than tragedy". (0.18 seconds)

i would've thought Danja and Terius replaced Timba and Neps auteur status for 'outsiders' altho they don't really have the hip-hop production background which may be a factor against. i think many of us were able to join the latter two as they crossed over into Pop production, re-shaping it as they saw fit.

Timba and Neptunes ballads for Aaliyah and Kelis were earlyish examples of the 'ballads don't usually sound as 'spacey' or electronic as this' thing that piqued my interest/excitement more. what i liked about that is that it enabled some of us to relate to the producer more than or in place of the vocalist, giving it that extra dimension that a lot of 90s RnB ballads didn't go for (but back then I think i dug some ballads on a retro tip e.g. Mary J Blige 'I'm Goin' Down' which is harder to square).

Apparently "It's much easier to make people cry than to make them laugh" is a Vivian Leigh quote.

Vivien.

i would've thought Danja and Terius replaced Timba and Neps auteur status for 'outsiders'

Dilla fits somewhere here too yeah?

what i liked about that is that it enabled some of us to relate to the producer more than or in place of the vocalist

why would you want to do this

when i listen to neu! i am mostly relating to conny planck

BECAUSE SOME OF US DON'T LISTEN TO OR INDEED GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LYRICS OR EFFING VOCALISTS!!!!!!11eleven

why would you want to do this

this isn't worth answering unless you're genuinely interested (but then i think you could imagine/answer yourself?) or willing to accept approaches to music other than your own.

it just seems like a wrong-headed approach to a genre where the focus is on the vocalist - like listening to basement jaxx for the lyrics

i mean, why aren't YOU accepting approaches to music other than your own when you listen to r&b?