how was vanilla ice portrayed by the media?

But in Vanilla Ice's case, his shortcomings give the whole record the obnoxious mood of a cipher attempting to be down and failing, not splendidly, but miserably.

OTfreakin'M.

Vanilla's only legacy is that he got a bunch of white kids interested in rap, many of whom did get move on to the more "legit" (quotations intentional) stuff. I was 16 when "Ice, Ice Baby" hit, and was already well into Rakim, KRS-One, Paris, etc. by that time, so Vanilla Ice just didn't do a thing for me.

>no real lyrical hook<

>the only real hook in it is taken straight off a much better Queen/Bowie song

And "everyone else" obviously includes the millions of people who bought the damn thing, right?

I've written about the song plenty in my second book, and elsewhere. There's a lot to love about it.

No, what I'm saying is that Vanilla Ice's ability to bring rap to the mainstream in a way that hadn't been done at that time is the only thing about him that I personally find interesting. I found him laughable in his day and damn near unlistenable now.

um, Run DMC/Aerosmith, and the Beastie Boys would like a word with you...

Or rather, I found him laughable in his day and I FIND HIM damn near unlistenable now.

SCREAMING! SCREAMING FOR A PREVIEW BUTTON!!!

I think there's a problem in separating and isolating the two things here. I think "Ice Ice Baby" fails to be catchy because it lacks skills - the rap doesn't flow, the beats are too straight, there is little going on sonically to catch you aside from the bassline, which is catchy but which is taken straight off another song that had a lot more going for it. And I think "Triple Stage Darkness" is more catchy or affecting because it flows more rhythmically, both in the voice and beats and because there's more going on with the samples and how they're put together. That looped sax melody near the end is great. Maybe I should say "affecting" rather than "catchy" but I don't like virtuosity just for it's own sake - I like it as a tool that achieves something affective. I'm not an expert on rap technique so lots of people probably disagree with me (well they would even if I were an expert) - enough people liked IIB at the time! - but that's how it sounds to me.

Oh, without question!

I'm referring specifically to places like the horrible backwater town in which I grew up, which is why I said "in a way that hadn't been done before". I understand that most of Western civilization had heard at least some rap music by Vanilla Ice's inception. In places like my home town, though, rap, even in 1991 was still this somewhat new-fangled invention by them there "colored" folk.

(And I'm not exaggerating - growing up I heard "colored" as much as I heard the n-word. Canucks who love to trumpet our country's supposed lack of racism have no idea of what they're talking about.)

as usual, this is 100% grade-A balonium. Rap during Vanilla Ice's day was not dominated by humorless, "complex" artists, especially not on the charts and radio - see MC Hammer, Digital Underground, Fresh Prince, Salt n Pepa, Tone Loc, Young MC, ad nauseam.

People love Rakim because of his personality, not his "skillz". His skills INFORM his personality - his character was all about talking about how badass a rhymer he was, and he backed it up w/ techincal ability.

Shakey's list of fun rappers aside, I don't see hip-hop of this time as being "humorless and self-important" "quiet storm adult contemporary" at ALL and I think the accusation is baseless and ludicrous.

I also don't understand why you feel the need to tear down the old "hip-hop canon" (a canon that has been underappreciated by the mainstream of critical thought as it is) in order to prop up this joke of a song that - while I certainly understand why some ppl like it - is not somehow INHERENTLY better than 3rd Bass just because it embraces a fun party aesthetic, ESPECIALLY because there were much better fun party songs going on at the time (see Shakey's list).

By the way Chuck I bought yr book ("accidental evolution"...) a few days ago and just got it in the mail and am very interested in reading it.

who posted that a while back?

And I found Young MC, Tone Loc, etc, (and even more so Real Roxanne, Roxanne Shante, L'Trimm, EPMD, etc.) (and later Kris Kross, House of Pain, etc.) refreshing as well. I never said "Ice Ice Baby" was the only rap record I liked at the time. But it still wasn't too hard to notice the full-of-itself/anti-dance direction rap was heading back then (and sorry, but stuff like KRS-One and the first Tribe Called Quest album *did* feel like adult contemporary quiet storm -- the latter's fun seemed as labored to me as an indie rock band. And the whole "look at us we're sampling Lou Reed and jazz and stuff" shtick *was* about proving how complex their music was. But I've said this a zillion times already; probably no need to say it again.) Anyway:

Technique in Rap and Rock

I like this about current hip-hop (and early hip-hop) too! What I didn't like in the '90s is how much the "serious" stuff took over.

Since then - the mid 90s period on I suppose - the crate-digging thing became very much about the obscurity of the sample, a navel-gazing excersize that choked creativity and shunned the dancefloor (and subsequently lost its long-term critical cachet). But at the time, crate digging wasn't this cultish, elitist thing, it was very much about finding new sounds, producing in fresh ways, and taking advantage of new technology.

It shouldn't, and it never was, not even in 1981. In fact, I've been saying just the opposite (incl. in my description of "Ice Ice Baby.)

But Scott has a point -- if I had been listening to more Bobby Jimmy and Critters and Maggotron albums, I wouldn't have been complaining!

And Chuck, when you say you hate Rakim's legacy, what are you referring to? (Not trolling or flaming, just curious...)

Technique in Rap and Rock

Basically, I think Rakim (intentionally or uninentionally -- again, i do like his early music) helped instigate in rap a virtuosity fetish that helped ensure people arguing over "which rapper has the best skills" would wind up boring and ulitimately deadening as your average guitar magazine. and this really hurt the music a lot.

When? In 86? or in 91? and how?