Shania Twain's Ramones T-shirt: C/D?

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To recast ms's familiar argt. re: ads since it seems it's getting groped towards here:

Worrying that Shania's Ramones shirt "demeans" punk concedes that Shania is stronger than the Ramones.

Which I actually think she is, but then I don't particularly mind. Remember Joey (?) supported Reagan but Shania won the "world's sexiest vegetarian award" one year (i shit you not).

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 05:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Alternate theory no 3. Shania's fully aware of the cultural significance of da Brudders and how they are part of the critical canon. She's also aware that her work is at best tolerated, at worst despised by those same people. So she thinks 'I know you think my work is insignificant, but I choose the Ramones as an influence. So if my work's so bad either the Ramones cultural significance is weakened or I'm as culturally significant as those idiots on the T-shirt'.

She's giving a metaphorical finger to those who despise her work, and the righteous ire shown by those who find her appropriation of these images is just more fire in her belly. As they used to say, if you wan't to defeat your enemy sing their song.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 09:47 (twenty-three years ago)

..I think that's an interesting idea, but it's giving Shania/publicist too much credit. I think it's just a "hard rock" shirt they chose to emphasize that Shania can rock. It's possible that they first chose a Van Halen T-shirt and then said, "No, Van Halen are a cheesy 80's hair band. The Ramones are cooler." .. but I think that's about all of the thought that went into it.

..and don't talk about fire in Shania's belly so early in the morning... I have to scroll up to take a look at it.

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 12:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Heh, alt. poss. thought process: 'VH were a cheesy 80's hair band, whereas the Ramones were a cheesy 70's hair band"

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 12:37 (twenty-three years ago)

More like cheesy 50s/60's hair band.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 21:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Y'know what I think it is that's so upsetting about Shania wearing Ramones and AC/DC shirts? It's that she herself is nothing but a sparkless careerist. Based on her press, she's has nothing but contempt for her audience and positively LOATHES being a "public person." Beyond that, her music is completely inconsequential, banal and rife with the same amount of meaningless cliché that plagues, say, the Corrs! Meanwhile, whether you appreciate them or not, the Ramones and AC/DC are artists who have *INSPIRED* people. There are more bands that were spawned in the wake of these two giant names than Shania could ever hope to affect. The Ramones and AC/DC inspire *PASSION* in their fans, whereas Shania merely manufactures fucking PRODUCT and shifts units to consumers who clearly don't have very high musical standards (does this make them subhuman? No, just that music doesn't interest them). Therefore, it is offensive to folks who *DO* take music seriously (whether you think that's silly or not) that Shania is limply trying to imply some affinity/appreciation for individuals who actually make music of quality. I doubt Shania even enjoys music to begin with.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 02:44 (twenty-three years ago)

want critical attention? Hold or wear something you know critics like. We'll just drool all over ourselves coming to terms with the appropriation.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 02:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I know a dude who is definitely inspired to passion by Shania Twain. I think his arm is going to fall off.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 15:53 (twenty-three years ago)

My fiancee thinks Shania's last album was terrific (this one is a let-down though) - she is passionate about those songs, and music affects her hugely even though she hardly ever buys records (mostly cos I have so many). Alex you're just going to have to accept one day that one person's product IS another person's passion - trying to apply your tiresome cock-rock standards as a universal norm is just dumb. (Also inspiring xerox bands is a nightmarishly flawed way to judge anything!).

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

''shania fan looks at t-shirt, thinks "hmm, i don't who that is, let's investigate", is somewhat non-plussed by what they hear, but persists bcz their heroine shania is after all wearing it, and gradually realises that HEY they like it, it's exciting and funny and [insert ramones qualities here], ok it;s not shania but it's good also, and maybe they shd look further''

well if its just a couple of pics this theory won't work will it.

is anyone going to find out in how many pics is shania wearing a ramones t-shirt?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't the more important question whether Joey Ramone ever wore a Shania shirt?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

why not julio?

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:14 (twenty-three years ago)

if she's appearing with it on only a pic then its just another pic. will the ppl know that the ramones are a band? will they even question a name.

whereas if she wears it on several pics then maybe ppl will find out I'm sure.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:29 (twenty-three years ago)

if they're full-on stalkerish fans they'll be crazy for anything she does, the more obscure the better

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:32 (twenty-three years ago)

if they are 'stalkerish' they would find out abt them but they wouldn't listen to them. they would be too busy with listening to shania's stuff.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:34 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.thestar.com/images/030114_lavigne_avril_250.jpg
Fans go crazy for Avril's shirt

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Dave225 is evidently first to really camp out on the money, above: has no one noticed that "vintage rock t-shirts" have recently become a popular fashion item quite apart from anything having to do with the particular band they're for? (The message, obviously, is what Tom delineates above: a vague appropriation of the air and aura of the period, not particularly different from e.g. that American Idol contestant with the dyed-red hair and "punk" attitude.)

In fact I predict that within the next twenty-four months major American retail chains such as the Gap and Old Navy will be selling distressed t-shirts featuring faux-vintage rock art (but either no band specified or one made up); probably sooner, as you can already buy the standard Ramones or CBGBs t-shirts at Urban Outfitters.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Nabisco = OTM.

― mark p (Mark P), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:55 (twenty-three years ago)

"shania fan looks at t-shirt, thinks "hmm, i don't who that is, let's investigate", is somewhat non-plussed by what they hear, but persists bcz their heroine shania is after all wearing it, and gradually realises that HEY they like it, it's exciting and funny and [insert ramones qualities here], ok it;s not shania but it's good also, and maybe they shd look further"
Quoting a documentary I saw once: "The first time you hear a Ramones song, you say to yourself 'this is just silly'; the second time you hear the same Ramones song you say to yourself 'Hey...this is kinda catchy...'; the fifteenth time you hear the same Ramones song, you say to yourself 'I could worship this band.' "
Question is can you replace the word 'you' in the above quote with the word 'Shania' and still be logical, possible or plausible?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:51 (twenty-three years ago)

the avril story is funny but doesn't relate to this really. will the ppl that buy that t-shirt go and shop at that place?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Dude, it's HOME HARDWARE, home of the handyman! Now, people that are Avril fans will think of Home Hardware every time they need nails or electrical tape or, like, batteries! Whether they actually make the pilgrimage to Napanee is another story.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:59 (twenty-three years ago)

.. I can't wait for this, if the band names are indeed made up. "Happy Rock Fire Bang"

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:01 (twenty-three years ago)

well, in that case the shania hataz 'lose' heh!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Exactly, Julio. Now every time Shania fans want nails, electrical tape and batteries, they'll call up The Ramones!

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

i doubt grown-up working established musicians grown to WORSHIP other bands: they know too much abt how it's done, how it all works etc etc

there's nothing intrinsically ridiculous about shania growing to like the music of the ramones, even a lot, for exactly the reason you give custos

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

you forgot glue sean. they'll supply that.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Nope...they never have any left. They all in the back room using it.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:07 (twenty-three years ago)

haha in a surprise burst of speed in the closing stages, custos wins best post of the thread

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:13 (twenty-three years ago)

and now for my next trick I'm gonna pull a rabbit out of my hat.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:50 (twenty-three years ago)

"Alex you're just going to have to accept one day that one person's product IS another person's passion"

Yes -- the passion of people unaware of options of SUPERIOR quality.

"trying to apply your tiresome cock-rock standards as a universal norm is just dumb."

Hey Tom -- UP YOURS! By this point, you should know my tastes run well beyond 'tiresome cock-rock'. That was wholly unecessary.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:02 (twenty-three years ago)

One person's superior quality is another person's hideous shit.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:04 (twenty-three years ago)

.. must ... resist .... temptation !!!

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:09 (twenty-three years ago)

No apologies this time Alex, yr comments about Shania fans pissed me off and no matter what I characterise your tastes as, the solipsistic attitude's still the same - 'if other people understood music like I do they'd like what I like'. Yeah, like a Shania fan would renounce her if they suddenly heard one of your mix CDs.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:13 (twenty-three years ago)

The secret catch to Alex's post: if the people are "unaware of superior options" then Shania's Ramones t-shirt is just what the doctor ordered!

Right?

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:14 (twenty-three years ago)

One person's superior quality is another person's hideous shit.

... except for vocals.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually Alex we can TRY IT OUT!! If you want to mail me a CD full of superior options I will get my fiancee to hear it and report back to you!

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:17 (twenty-three years ago)

that was pretty pompous Alex. I'm sure Shania will influence many. Hell, having Mutt Lange produce her stuff has already broken down the Nashville monolith to some degree. Just like monoliths like Garth Brooks and Michael Jackson before her, she'll reign huge on country.

Plus that "Getcha Good" song is pretty spiffy.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Ooooh, good catch, Dan.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:18 (twenty-three years ago)

though Shania does seem cold as all fucking hell in interviews.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:19 (twenty-three years ago)

"The secret catch to Alex's post: if the people are "unaware of superior options" then Shania's Ramones t-shirt is just what the doctor ordered!"

No, there is no secret catch. The Ramones and AC/DC shirts (whether they were Shania's doing, or -- in all likelihood -- some stylist's) are just crass tools to juxtapose the country-pop diva with genres she has really has nothing to do with (any argument there?) for the sake of fresh take beyond: "here's Shania in a tank top" or "here's Shania in a leopard skin jumpsuit" or "here's Shania with a cowboy hat on." It's just that the appropriation is offensive to we that take the iconography she's adopted a bit more serioulsy (then we arguably should). No apologies here either!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:22 (twenty-three years ago)

"Actually Alex we can TRY IT OUT!! If you want to mail me a CD full of superior options I will get my fiancee to hear it and report back to you!"

Your fiancee's tastes are your own problem, Tom.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:26 (twenty-three years ago)

I think we were critiquing your claim that her fans are ignorant spuds who aren't (drum roll) Inspired! Not the damn shirts at this point.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Your fiancee's tastes are your own problem, Tom.

Oh come on Alex, THAT is fucked. I didn't see Tom saying anything about what your significant other thinks of your taste.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I didn't bring anyone's significant others into this debate, did I? Tom shouldn't bring to the table what Tom doesn't want discussed. My wife has tastes that conflict with mine, but that doesn't make her a bad person. We simply agree to disagree. Moreover, by her own admission, she doesn't take music as seriously as I do. It's not a character flaw, it's simply a trait of one's personality.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:30 (twenty-three years ago)

I didn't see Tom saying anything about what your significant other thinks of your taste

Her husband's tastes are her own problem, Ned. (And ours).

I'm not offended at all by that - but the fact is Alex claimed that if Shania fans were exposed to superior options they wouldn't be as passionate about Shania. Now I happen to know a Shania fan very well and offered to test this claim: why Alex would turn down such a challenge I have no idea!

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:34 (twenty-three years ago)

All I can come up with this the classic line: certain people are ignorant and "unaware" of superior options ==> Shania's shirts are big billboards alterting them to the existence of supposed options ==> Alex in NYC sputters and rages ==> Alex in NYC secretly prefers them to stay ignorant so he can continue to beat up on them.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Alex is arguing from a position of hyperbole and he knows it. Why should he back up something that should be dialed down several degrees before being analyzed?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:37 (twenty-three years ago)

What interests me is that if Shania wore a Killing Joke shirt and loads of pop-country fans went out and bought the entire Killing Joke back-catalog Alex would complain, wouldn't he?

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:38 (twenty-three years ago)

But that just means that Shania is Honouring the Fire. Whats wrong with that?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:39 (twenty-three years ago)

"Her husband's tastes..."

Try "His".

"Now I happen to know a Shania fan very well and offered to test this claim: why Alex would turn down such a challenge I have no idea!"

Because it's a stupid, pointless challenge. For a start, I shouldn't *NEED* to make a tape for your fiancee, as after reading my posts here for the last year and change (and being that you seem to be convinced that I listen exclusively to what you so charmingly characterize as 'tiresome cock-rock,') you should be able to save me the trouble and dowload the stuff for her yourself. Moreover, I don't *CARE* if your fiancee chooses to sully her aural cavities with the soulless warblings of Shania Twain. They're her ears -- she's perfectly within her rights to do so. Just pardon me if I think your wife-to-be is rather undemanding when it comes to music.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 20:39 (twenty-three years ago)

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