sometime i read christgau and am amazed...

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[BLONDIE] believes in reincarnation, [BLONDIE] wishes the pope had a bigger dick.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The bar is set pretty high for Christgau threads on ILM:

This is the thread where you ask for help in parsing one of Robert Christgau's sentences.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

In the critic-reader relationship, the reader should be the more important. If you're just writing for yourself, keep a journal.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

And I realize criticism does not equal journalism, but the best critics are able to convey their points with the aforementioned clarity.
Obfuscation should not be a badge of honour.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

He wanted to share what he thought was most interesting about the album, and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the music on a Blondie reunion WAS less interesting than those tidbits.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

corollary ilb thread: 'roger angell: why doesn't he just give the boxscore? what's with all this gobbledygook? clarity plz! ps: tell me which team to root for'

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

banjomania that's every dumb it down argument ever (ie. the folx in the stix won't get it)(ie. how we (=usa) got to this place)(bush/cheney 2004 - 'dude don't think so much')

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Forget it. I'm just gonna go back to reading Greg Kot. That's where I belong.

― frankE (frankE), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The only way the HM could be unclear is if you dont understand that the comma is an "and"

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

banjomania what exactly is obfuscatory < / sylvester the cat > about 'dick' or 'pope' ('reincarnation' maybe but tackle that one also while you're at it)?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

In the critic-reader relationship, the reader should be the more important.

Is this reader asking to be placed in a permanent state of comprehension? Does this reader need the Truth at all times?

If so, I'm with Christgau: gum up the works! Clarity is for monks and intelligence reports.

(Whoops. Maybe it's just for monks.)

― Evanston Wade (EWW), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

you can call it silly, horrifically uninformative, smug, cute, etc. but it's definitely clear. noun - verb- subject, it's there.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

If you understand that the word Blondie is implied.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

BanjoMania: Please show me where all this excellent music criticism in daily newspapers is. (There's frequently good stuff in the Times, I'll give you that. But where else?)

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Xgau rulz, but am in total agreement with the ppl saying that that review doesn't make it clear at all that it's refering to actual lyrics. In fact, "Believes in reincarnation, wishes the pope had a bigger dick" reads *very much* like something he'd say about an album's general mood; I read it at such, and the first part made sense (they think they can make a come-back/they believe that their former music has led to what they are now. Both sort of "duh" statements, I know.) I struggled w/ the second one, the best I could come up w/ was that Xgau thinks that Blondie wishes eclecticism was a more powerful tool than it is ("catholic tastes", you see?)

Anyway dissecting Xgau's writing is half of the fun of reading him!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Forget it. I'm just gonna go back to reading Greg Kot. That's where I belong.

damn!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I understand what a dick is. And I'm familiar with the pope and the concept of reincarnation. But without actually listening to the album, I'm unclear what they have to do with the new Blondie CD.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

so the problem is that people can't take what he writes at face value, but instead assume he's being metaphorical.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

what is has to do with the new blondie cd is they believe in reincarnation, wish the pope had a bigger dick - sinking in yet?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

And no jokes or goofing around or first-person pronouns or asides about war or baseball while we're at it, right Banjoman? That might confuse people, which good writers NEVER do. Music criticism is SERIOUS STUFF; let's keep it that way, dammit. (In fact, who needs opinions? Let's just stick to hard news stories, like manly men.)

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Bangs or Meltzer or Marcus or Powers or Kogan or Eddy or Queen or Fury

sounds like the Justice League of Rock Crits

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

at least Momus had some bile and Europhile anger going on, Jesus

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

woah there, Chuck, don't pretend the Noise Boys aren't a bit macho themselves

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean I guess I expected it to be a general point about the album as a whole since lyric quoting on its own ain't worth much and I've seen him sum up albums splendidly in less words before (tho yeah, not everything can be gold, it's just one review, and it's amusing even if you don't know he's just quoting lyrics, probably even moreso. And maybe he *was* summing up the entire album by quoting those lyrics.)

xpost Anthony Xgau's writing is full of metaphors, assuming that this would be another one doesn't seem too silly to me.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, I said I was a working journalist. Hard news and analysis. I'm not a rock critic. And I don't remember saying anything about the excellent rock criticism in daily newspapers.
I was making a point about my own approach to writing, which is very much informed by what I do. My point is, basically, if your a lot of your audience is having trouble understanding you, you have failed as a writer. It's not about dumbing it down for the folks in the sticks. Writing can be intelligent and elegant and still be clear.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

And it can be funny. Don't put words in my mouth.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess, daniel, though the pope's dick seems like a rather specific detail that probably does hint at an overall attitude found on the album. Representative rather than metaphorical.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

By the way, in case nobody pointed out what I would have assumed is obvious but obviously i'm no judge about that sort of thing, the "reincarnation" part refers not ONLY to a song lyric, but also to, uh, Blondie's CAREER. (i.e. this is sort of a COMEBACK record). Which is kinda clever, since there are TWO meanings to not get, not just one! He said THREE things about the album in just ten words!

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not REALLY a comeback record though, is it? It only came out four years after their last one, and they've been touring constantly since.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Except for their last comeback record, which was pretty recent.
(x-post)

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

But I wanted to reinforce the point.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I did :(

It's not REALLY a comeback record though, is it?

Dude "No Exit" feels like ages ago though. I've heard ppl talking about Neil Hannon's return from a "hiatus" w/r/t the new Divine Comedy album, so I figure calling Blondie's latest a comeback is fair game.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, *I* used the word "comeback record," not Bob. I don't keep up that much on Blondie's career. But their career was still reincarnated, even if it was last time and not this time. And they still believe in said reincarnation, I would think. Along with wishing the Pope had a bigger dick and all.

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Is Coolio on this one, too?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

No Exit. Sartre reference. See, I'm not dumb.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

My point is, basically, if your a lot of your audience is having trouble understanding you, you have failed as a writer.

Even if some of your audience does understand you, and even if more of them accept a certain level of obscurity in your writing?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder how the pope would feel about all this.
I'll have to come back to this. I'm going on an assignment. The one good thing about being at a newspaper is it looks like I've been working for the past half hour. Diligently typing away.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, yeah, I wasn't entirely clear on what Christgau was talking about when I read that either, though I half-assumed he was just referring to the lyrics of songs I hadn't heard, and when I put some more thought into it, I was certain "reincarnation" had something to do with Blondie's comeback status.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Michael, this is only my opinion and, like I said, it's informed by what I do. I suppose it's a matter of degree. If the majority of your readers (or close to a majority) have difficulty gleaning your meaning (in this medium, which I should have pointed out before), then yeah, I think you've got a problem. Even if you accept a certain amount of ambiguity or obscurity from the author, it shouldn't take a series of close readings to figure shit out. It's rock criticism, not Ulysses.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

and now I've really got to go.

― BanjoMania (Brilhante), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't it sort of assumed that the honorable mentions are records the reader is already aware of? Would someone honestly feel inclined to purchase a record based upon the tone of a single sentence or phrase. I always read it as a way for him to deny responsibility if someone bought what they feel to be a shitty album. But really it's like "oh you like the Strokes well the new record basically repeats the first one. sorry, well you know it alright, i guess."

I find myself oft-frustrated by the HM's, even though I know what the classification is about. But those who don't should recognize )(as I understand it) that the HM's are for fans and are recommended to non-fans only with caution. Whether that's implicit in the format for most people, I'm not sure. Regardless of fandom, however, are the HM's usually more cryptic than the As? Perhaps the idea is that you should have to work harder to figure out if you really want the thing, whether or not you're a fan?

I struggled w/ the second one, the best I could come up w/ was that Xgau thinks that Blondie wishes eclecticism was a more powerful tool than it is ("catholic tastes", you see?)

fantastic

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, rock criticism is a lower format than other kinds of writing. thanks for setting us straight.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

novels and hard journalism are automatically better because higher than writing about records. this is a point that cannot be reinforced enough!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

It's rock criticism, not Ulysses.

What's the fun in separating the two?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't believe the number of words that are being spilled over a 10-word review! If this was a lead review, it would be inadequate. But in the context of a passel of one-liners, it's fine.

It took me a minute to realize that, if these lyrical snippets were all he was referring to, the ret of it must relatively recognizable as a Blondie record. (I'm assuming it's not a grand concept album or a samba experiment, and I'd expect him to note if it were.)

But taking a minute to read between the lines isn't gonna kill anyone.

"By the way, in case nobody pointed out what I would have assumed is obvious but obviously i'm no judge about that sort of thing, the "reincarnation" part refers not ONLY to a song lyric, but also to, uh, Blondie's CAREER. (i.e. this is sort of a COMEBACK record). Which is kinda clever, since there are TWO meanings to not get, not just one! He said THREE things about the album in just ten words!
-- chuck (cedd...), April 22nd, 2004."

Yeah, but if one to infer a metaphor from "reincarnation" then one can't be criticized for inferring one from "wishes the pope had a bigger dick."

Thus, were I editing him, I would request he clarify thusly:
BLONDIE
The Curse of Blondie
(Sanctuary)

Believes in reincarnation ("Shakedown"), wishes the pope had a bigger dick ("End to End").

― Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

NB: I actually tried writing a few pages of a rock & roll version of Finnegans Wake as a teen!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Rick, please look at the format of all the other honorable mentions, and read the post above where I spoonfed said format. Thank you.

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

The Pope's Penis

It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate
clapper at the center of a bell.
It moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a
halo of silver seaweed, the hair
swaying in the dark and the heat - and at night,
while his eyes sleep, it stands up
in praise of God.

----- Sharon Olds

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

in other news, classical arias suck because they don't feature Roland TB-303 manipulation.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm assuming it's not a grand concept album or a samba experiment, and I'd expect him to note if it were.)"

Why would you "assume" that? This idea that every review of a particular record has to say the same things about makes no sense at all to me. What if he thought the samba or grand concept weren't IMPORTANT?? What if he thinks, as I do, that Grand Concepts are almost NEVER important, and rarely have anything to do with what might make a record worth listening to??

― chuck, Thursday, 22 April 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

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