ILM music making thread for techno and other Ableton/Reason/Reaktor/whatever based questions and chat

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yep, I figured that might be the case, drawing it in seems to necessitate jumps in volume of the effect. just gonna look at the tutorial for assigning stuff now.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

i still cannot work out where to put plug-ins in ableton, there is no "vst plug-ins" folder as display name describes in the ableton directory.

― creme1, Sunday, 29 April 2007 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

yep

― Ronan, Sunday, 29 April 2007 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

Do I really need a MIDI keyboard to make half-decent melodies in Reason? I find my problem is almost always because I can't see where each bar begins and ends very easily. Is there a way of adding markers or changing colours at each section at all?

― the next grozart, Sunday, 29 April 2007 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

creme1, if yr using a mac then put them in macintosh hd/library/audio/plugins/vst

― zappi, Sunday, 29 April 2007 16:52 (nineteen years ago)

I have been having the most annoying latency problems with ableton, trying to record through my H4 Zoom recorder as an interface (which it's meant to be used as)

― filthy dylan, Sunday, 29 April 2007 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

A pretty basic question again: I have a 3-note piano loop I want to integrate into my track, so naturally I open a new midi track and set up the devices I am using for the loop etc.

I'm just not sure how to make it so the 3 notes are in one clip and can be played easily as one clip. I want each note to last a bar, basically, but I don't know how to do this without having them as separate clips, how do I enlarge a clip so that I can have more than

I guess I could do each note as a separate clip and then use arrangement view to fix it all up, but this seems a long winded way of doing something that seems really basic. Anyone able to help? Apologies if my query is a bit muddled sounding.

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

sorry, should read how do I enlarge a clip so I can have more erm...time in it?

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

Ronan: I'm not sure I understand the question, but it sounds like you're just wanting to use the Warp function to line up the notes in the right places and stretch them across?

Do I really need a MIDI keyboard to make half-decent melodies in Reason? I find my problem is almost always because I can't see where each bar begins and ends very easily. Is there a way of adding markers or changing colours at each section at all?

Does this mean you're drawing your melodies into the MIDI chart at the bottom? Because you may find it vastly easier to use the Matrix at first. (And if the pattern sequencing starts to limit you, there's an option to dump your recorded patterns onto the MIDI chart, so you can edit/cut/paste down there.)

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 18:51 (nineteen years ago)

Not really sure what the Warp function is, so I don't know. At the moment I just have each note as a separate clip, and recorded them once by playing them in the right order live, and then arranging them in arrangement view.

The reason I have to do this is I want each note to be held for a certain amount of time and it doesn't seem to give me enough time in one clip to fit in 3 notes held for this long? I realise I may be missing something obvious here, but do you understand what I mean?

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 19:46 (nineteen years ago)

I'm confused. Are you saying the note samples aren't long enough to fill up all the space (i.e., you need to stretch or loop them to be longer), or that Live won't let you load a clip of the appropriate length (which would be weird)?

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 19:59 (nineteen years ago)

it's not samples as such, I just want to draw in the notes, one after another, but the frame it's giving me only will fit one of them, because I want them to be held for a certain amount of time.

I mean one "cycle" of the marker when I press play=one note, then the marker is back at the start playing that note again, when I want the cycle to be 3 times as long? does that make sense?

maybe the notes I'm playing are in different time sig to the piece, tho they are definitely in time, the way I want them to fit in anyway. sorry my lack of musical training is shining through in how I describe all of this.

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

also, totally separate question, is there an effect that is good at "cleaning" sounds? I have a sort of resonated percussion track that seems to be popping a little bit, if I drop the wet/dry the popping/static stops but then I lose some of the effect I want too.

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:10 (nineteen years ago)

EQ? Or is it clipping?

― Jordan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, I see -- I thought you were dealing directly with audio sample clips. I should have noticed you said "MIDI track" up above. But I still can't entirely imagine the problem you're having, without seeing it -- it almost sounds like you just need to adjust the zoom scale and the detail of the marker divisions in the window where you're penciling the notes in! I dunno, I'll open up Live when I get home and see if I can wrap my head around what's going on.

xpost Try using a limiter or a compressor before the resonator. Both of those kinda even out the level/volume of the track, so you won't have any sudden loud peaks making the resonator pop. If that doesn't work, put an EQ before the resonator, make a deep narrow cut, and move it around to see if there's a particular frequency that's causing the pop.

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

the first is ok in that I've got 3 clips with each note now, just figured for future reference might be good.

thanks a lot, that's worked for the second problem, it's weird though, you make subtle changes like this and think "was the version with the popping better, did I lose something tiny in eliminating the popping?"

― Ronan, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:25 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, Ronan, don't stop updating here: it is really awesome and fun seeing you wade into this. Subtle changes is right: soon enough you'll be spending six hours obsessively fiddling with reverb settings for a single hi-hat click. I especially look forward to the point where you start in on kick/bass side-chaining, which -- if you're making the kind of stuff I imagine -- will come sooner than later!

― nabisco, Monday, 30 April 2007 20:31 (nineteen years ago)

More queries:

I really like some of the sounds you get with resonators, however they're just that bit harsh sometimes, is there any way of softening them a little?

Basically I'm enjoying the way you can make great percussive melodies but want them to sound a TINY bit less percussive and a bit more like melodies, at the moment they're sort of sharp and ring in the ears a little too much.

Also general advice on this, I'm not sure I actually like "big" synth noises in the slightest, are there other ways to sort of "drum programme" melodies besides using resonators, it strikes me this makes for far more interesting sounds generally.

At least until I understand synthesis a bit better and get some more VSTs and stuff. The built in synth sounds in Ableton are pretty awful, difficult to imagine integrating any of them into a track.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:41 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry should add, I'm sure the answer to my first question is EQ/Compressor, one or both, but it'd help to know which one and what approach to take, so I know why it's working.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:41 (nineteen years ago)

Does this mean you're drawing your melodies into the MIDI chart at the bottom? Because you may find it vastly easier to use the Matrix at first. (And if the pattern sequencing starts to limit you, there's an option to dump your recorded patterns onto the MIDI chart, so you can edit/cut/paste down there.)

There is? Oh how? I find the Matrix thing frustrating but easier to use than drawing everything in.

― the next grozart, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry should add, I'm sure the answer to my first question is EQ/Compressor, one or both, but it'd help to know which one and what approach to take, so I know why it's working.

Well do you know how EQ and compression work? You should probably play around with both and get a feel for them, as they're very powerful tools. Use extreme settings to better hear the effects of what they're doing. EQ is going to shape the frequency profile or timbral quality of the track while compression is going to shape the dynamic envelope or attack and decay characteristics of the track.

― St3ve Go1db3rg, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 15:34 (nineteen years ago)

Ronan: it sounds like you're using percussive samples + resonators to try and create melodies, but not quite managing to make them as melodic as you want. I'd suggest starting to learn synthesis, because the synth tools will allow you to create sounds wherever you want them on the percussion/melody spectrum. Just look at an explanation of ADSR envelopes while playing with them on-screen -- it's not as daunting as it might look. Those synths are totally capable of creating totally amelodic DRUM sounds if you just set those values right! (Set them all to nearly zero, and you'll just get a tiny click.)

Re: resonators -- what you're doing with those Live resonators is taking sounds that don't feel like they have pitch and emphasizing certain harmonic frequencies so they do -- hence it sounding more melodic. If you like that effect a lot, then in addition to finding ways to EQ or compress them, you might want to study up on how to get the best effect out of the resonator itself. (Knowing what an effect is doing, on a technical level, really does help you use it a lot better.) Try here -- looks like it also explains a bit about how to control what harmonics the resonator is emphasizing:
http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_twang_plunk_boing/

The resonator's bound to come off harsh, because it's emphasizing really narrow harmonics to bring out a sense of pitch -- you could theoretically get the same effect in a less harsh way by EQing the drum sample to CUT the percussive element and leave lots of the harmonic information behind? (I think: Steve probably knows the theory there better.)

Grotzart: once you've recorded your pattern sequencing on the Matrix, there's just a plain menu option to dump the notes onto the chart. (But not curve values, I don't think.) At least there was on Reason 1.0. If you can't find it in the menu, you'll be better off asking Help than ILM!

― nabisco, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, you know what, I'm just going to give the short-version explanation of ADSR envelopes right here, so nobody goes on thinking it's somehow arcane or complicated:

[b]ADSR ENVELOPES IN SIMPLE TERMS[/i]
I am putting these out of order, because they make more sense that way.

A = Attack = You trigger a note: attack is how long it takes the sound to reach full volume. A low value means it happens right when you trigger the note, like hitting a drum. A high value means it slowly builds / "fades in" to its full volume, like a synth pad.

S = Sustain = You're still holding the key and triggering the note: what volume does it STAY at? A low or zero value means the note doesn't really stay on -- like a piano or a mallet instrument. A higher value means the note continues, like we're used to with synths/organs.

D = Decay = This is the length of time between the peak "attack" volume and the "sustain" volume. A low value means the sound blips up to its peak and then backs off quickly, like the plucking of a string. A high value means the sound sits there swelling for a while.

S = Sustain = You release the key and stop triggering the sound: how long does it take to fade away? A low value means it stops immediately. A high value means it has a long, fading tail.

So Ronan, probably what you want is a fast attack, a low/medium decay, no sustain, and only a tiny release. This should provide a blippy, percussive noise. But it will still sound like a "note," not a percussive sound. In order to make it more percussive, you just need to play with the synth oscillators. Choose waveforms like squares and sawtooths that have lots of harmonics -- or set a couple oscillators to create white noise. Detune different oscillators against one another, so they're playing different pitches. Use one oscillator to modulate another, especially with FM synthesis. You'll eventually rough the sound up enough, and make it complex enough, to sound more drumlike than purely pitched.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

It's just getting that balance in between. The resonators are actually very good and do sound like melodies, just a fraction too tinny. For the track I'm making (as much a learning experience as a track) it's actually ok, I think it sounds quite good, but I just figure for future reference using preset resonators shouldn't be the only way I can achieve that rhythmic melody line.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 2 May 2007 17:54 (nineteen years ago)

Oh shit, I totally fucked up my envelope explanation -- that last one should be RELEASE! R = release = how long the note fades after you release the key. Sorry!

― nabisco, Thursday, 3 May 2007 04:45 (nineteen years ago)

I especially look forward to the point where you start in on kick/bass side-chaining

More on this please. As I understand it, the compressors in Live can't do this, you have to use a plug-in. Is that right?

This looks like a good introduction, and a free plug-in.

Is the pulsing of the synth in Someone Great by LCD sidechain compression?

― Jamie T Smith, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:02 (nineteen years ago)

Ronan, I don't know if you've solved your clip issue already, but it just sounds like you've created a one-bar clip and you want a three-bar one (unless I'm being stupid, which is entirely possible).

Rather than creating a clip from the menu, I would just hit the record clip circle thingy in a midi track, play your bit as many times as you like, then use the start and finish markers in the clip view to select a three-bar section that you played well. Or you can just let it run without playing anything in for three bars then draw in the notes you want.

For percussive/synth noises (and I know this isn't exactly what you mean, but it's interesting anyway) you can always launch a simpler, then drag any noise you like onto it and then play it. You can fiddle around with which bit of the sample and whether it loops or is just a one-hit thing and then there's effects and stuff built in. It's apparently not very sophisticated, but it's really easy to use and fun.

Another alternative is to load a few drum sounds into an impulse, then use the pitch adjuster to tune them. I had a lot of fun with a single cowbell sample the other day doing this (initially I was just trying to create a go-go bell and to simulate the different ways you can hit one, but I ended up creating four or five different pitches). This is a good way to write small melodic patterns without thinking in terms of the piano keyboard/conventional melody (ie as with the resonator, you're actually writing a rhythm pattern). Again, the impulse has a bunch of built-in effects that you can use to REALLY mess with the sounds further.

― Jamie T Smith, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:29 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't know they'd released Live 6!

http://www.ableton.com/downloads

I can't wait to get home and try the demo. Which will mean yet more playing with stuff and never finishing anything. Sigh.

― Jamie T Smith, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:50 (nineteen years ago)

here's a track I made

any tips?

― Ronan, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

some thoughts on one listen:
turn down the bongos
create transitory clips
add modulation to segue between sections
expand on that chord progression

keep it up!

my last attempt

― The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 01:20 (nineteen years ago)

macallan that shit is crepey.

ronan, i like it, but i agree about the clips and chord progression. the latter's a bit too "oh yeah" and not "OH YEAH."

― the table is the table, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 03:59 (nineteen years ago)

crêpey?

― The Macallan 18 Year, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

ronan, i like it, but i agree about the clips and chord progression. the latter's a bit too "oh yeah" and not "OH YEAH."

do you mean the piano part? and as regards "transitory clips", do you just mean little bridges between parts? and you reckon I should expand on the chords in the breakdown?

thanks for the advice. am downloading your track now macallan.

I've been finding it very hard to "finish" tracks as I know a lot of people do, ie to take the advice given and work on it. so I'm sort of starting new ones to try and implement that advice FROM THE START. it's quite tricky to go back into the process of a tracks creation and undo the things that people see could be improved afterwards. but I can always use these ideas again I suppose.

― Ronan, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

I am making music with Mario Paint! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

― jim, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

Jube's track IS creepy. one of the panning sounds actually made me inhale sharply.

it reminds me a bit of stuff off Laurent Garnier's Cloud Making Machine album.

― Ronan, Monday, 14 May 2007 22:56 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, I'm trying to import files that match up perfectly in Cubase and Adobe Audition but wont line up in Ableton. I know the problem - it seems that ableton is trying to make all the files match the tempo of the thread but that will never work. Is there anyway I can import the files so ableton just ignores the tempo?

― filthy dylan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 19:13 (nineteen years ago)

the project, not the thread

― filthy dylan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

Oh, Ronan, for some reason I thought I'd already commented on your track! Basically I think it's a good start as a framework, but -- especially in its genre -- could use some elements that stretch across the parts, instead of moving from block to block, loop to loop. We were talking about "Mouth to Mouth" the other day: the focal point in that is that huge flaring synth that Dear prods in and out, gradually changing the filters and effects, etc. -- you should just try adding that kind of lengthwise element to this, maybe, if only for practice. I think that's the main element missing, and working with that is good practice for learning how to make different song sections flow into one another naturally, instead of just changing over.

(You're 100% OTM about why people don't finish things -- you learn something and it's SO much more appealing to start anew rather than trying to dig back into complex stuff you've already made. Luckily, the add-lengthwise-element advice I'm giving for this last track doesn't raise that problem: you should just add a new synth track, figure out what the synth settings and effects can do, and see if you can add some motion in there. Not even a melodic "part" -- even just something like a synth pad that washes in and out and morphs over time.)

― nabisco, Thursday, 17 May 2007 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

(Ha, my everpresent Reason hell used to involve making huge, complex machine-chains, putting together a nearly-done song, and then going back to it weeks later wanting to change some small thing -- I'd have to spend hours taking the whole thing apart, patch cord by patch cord, to figure out what it was even doing in the first place.) (And always in the end I'd have like one Matrix with weird automated curve values where I absolutely could not figure out what it was there to do.)

― nabisco, Thursday, 17 May 2007 19:34 (nineteen years ago)

slight touch of acardipane about jubes track

― 696, Thursday, 17 May 2007 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

ronan, 696 you guys are too kind.

flithy dylan, you can't run an ableton project w/o a project tempo. you can however open sound files and leave them unwarped so they playback at their original tempos. however, they will not sync with other files unless everything is cut to start at exactly the same time. if it was me i'd warp and set start points on all those parts and then arrange then in (surprise) arrangement view.

i'm firmly in the camp of forging ahead and taking advice to new tracks. i save everything i do by dragging clips back into live's browser, creating .alc projects. that way if i ever need a drum pattern, some follow actions or something else i can import it quickly from the ever growing pile of half finished songs.

― The Macallan 18 Year, Thursday, 17 May 2007 21:40 (nineteen years ago)

How do I open them unwarped (they are already cut to start at the same time)?

― filthy dylan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 22:52 (nineteen years ago)

there is an option to automatically warp samples when you bring them into live, you can turn that off. or you can click the WARP button so it goes gray.

― The Macallan 18 Year, Thursday, 17 May 2007 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

Actually your other advice worked well. I just sort of moved the clips right and left and Ableton snapped them into fitting. I didn't believe it could be that intuitive, especially considering the fidelity of the tracks (these were mostly recorded onto shit tape decks, which I'm now digitizing and aligning and running through effects).

Thank you!

― filthy dylan, Thursday, 17 May 2007 23:19 (nineteen years ago)

Now I'm having problems with midi keyboard latency. When I install the disc and use it on my friends old mac it works fine but when I install it and try to use it on my new PC it has like millisecond latency. One difference I notice is that, even though I use the install CD on both, when I use the keyboard on my friends computer the programs read it as "E-mu midi controller" the exact brand, whereas on my own, it will only read "Generic midi controller." Driving me nuts.

― filthy dylan, Friday, 18 May 2007 00:15 (nineteen years ago)

(Im just full of problems)

― filthy dylan, Friday, 18 May 2007 00:17 (nineteen years ago)

e-mu drivers are broke. under live, just go to the midi or midi and audio tab or whatever and drag the millisec compensation so it drops t' zero-- then trial & error adjust.

― luriqua, Friday, 18 May 2007 00:27 (nineteen years ago)

Has anyone got any advice for starting to program stuff myself in Ableton? So far I've just been relying on the presets and stuff with a lot of my own tweaking and dial turning.

I mean, what's the ground floor as such with programming in Ableton, do I open operator? Where to from there? I've read your guide to ADSR above Nabisco, I'm just not sure where to apply it or how to apply it really.

Also is it worth reading a book about frequencies and stuff? I don't really understand how to place sounds in different parts of the sonic field even though I know this is a major deal in making stuff sound professional. Any recommendations?

― Ronan, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 09:11 (nineteen years ago)

Sound on Sound is a good mag to read to find out about this stuff. The "Secrets of the Mixers" feature is good for learning about EQ, compression settings for drums and so on...

The best way to learn to programme synths and fx is just to fanny about with them. There are some good, free synth and fx VSTs linked to from this thread: VST freebies & cheapies, what do you like?

― Raw Patrick, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 09:53 (nineteen years ago)

I wish I had the money for this kind of software... I'm too lazy to go to the trouble of stealing it.

I always used to make music with a dl'ed version of FruityLoops on a now defunct PC when I was a kid.

Fannying about is indeed a good way to learn, especially in the case of FX

― vadx, Tuesday, 22 May 2007 12:41 (nineteen years ago)

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