― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:28 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:30 (twenty years ago) link
then discuss it complicated terms.
some of these comments remind me of people saying "hey Blondie is a BAND - just ignore that incredible film noir femme fatale singing the songs!"
blondie specifically set themselves up ("blondie is a group" campaign notwithstanding) with debbie harry as a focus of attraction. i don't think that one can argue that because a band has a female singer, they need to follow this model.
― lauren (laurenp), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:30 (twenty years ago) link
I hate the implication that someone shouldn't be a performer because they don't look right. That's what it comes down to, when I read certain comments. It just translates to me as "if she isn't hot, she should get off the stage." Or, "she's so hot, she's such a great performer because of that."
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:32 (twenty years ago) link
to me, judging eleanor on her attractiveness is routinizing (if that's a word).
― lauren (laurenp), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:34 (twenty years ago) link
― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:34 (twenty years ago) link
― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:37 (twenty years ago) link
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:38 (twenty years ago) link
I don't understand folks who go to see bands live without knowing their records, unless they are an opening act. I'm not saying that's totally wrong or bad; I just don't get the logic of it on a personal level. I'd rather really know the songs and then watch them be translated to stage than watch performers and hope that translates to record. The latter seems less reasonable.
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:41 (twenty years ago) link
― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:41 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:42 (twenty years ago) link
Hey Lauren we are discussing it in complicated terms here! And Matthew I don't think anyone was saying they should get off the stage!
I think this conversation is interestingly precisely in the ways that performance enriches and complicates our pleasures in pop. This cuts both ways - I love the fact that the Pixies looked like some kind of Lynchian ID Parade of misfits, it somehow enhanced the music that they didn't look like, say, The Strokes.
I think what people - well RJG initially - were responding to on this thread was less 'pin-up good looks' or not, but a charisma, a quality of performance. And people who had only seen pictures were doubting this.
It seems slightly censorious to suggest that if people have seen a band they shouldnt talk about the performers, just as it would be to suggest people seeing a film should abstain from talking about the weird presence or charisma of the actors.
(BTW: 'routinization of charisma' is a phrase from Max Weber)
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:43 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:45 (twenty years ago) link
Live show is something to do on a Saturday night, when I'd be out spending money anyway. Buying a record is a completely different thing to me (plus, unless you're talking about singles, it is a lot cheaper anyway unless you're seeing some big name act).
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:47 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:48 (twenty years ago) link
the loss of enchantment!
― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:48 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:50 (twenty years ago) link
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:50 (twenty years ago) link
I think there's just a different subtext to the "she's ULGY! like a mom UGLY! Ick!" comments, and that has nothing to do with the performance or the music.
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:55 (twenty years ago) link
― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:56 (twenty years ago) link
In any case, this is a tempest in a teapot. None of the "hot or not" posts even mentioned how looks have bearing on music until the tempest started. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 20:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:02 (twenty years ago) link
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:03 (twenty years ago) link
This is actually a perfectly sensible, consistent position. If overall value = music + image. Looks can add to music but they can't take away, because hey, they're not music.Not that I actually see things that way. It's all an interaction, for me.
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:03 (twenty years ago) link
Of course all of it is moot, as the environment surrounding our listening experience is vital to it. John Cage showed this before most of us were born, why bother trying to refute it?
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:06 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:07 (twenty years ago) link
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:12 (twenty years ago) link
― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:13 (twenty years ago) link
8/10 for music8/10 for image
your overall opinion : 16/20
Band B:
8/10 for music0/10 for looks
your overall opinion : 8/20
In Band A, great looks have added bonus points. In Band B, they look awful, but you still have the 8 points for music.
Sure, you can formulate a system in which minus points are awarded, their looks affecting your enjoyment adversely, such that it would be better if you'd never seen them at all. But what I was suggesting is that Matthew doesn't use that system, and that's fine and not inconsistent.
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:14 (twenty years ago) link
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:14 (twenty years ago) link
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:16 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:18 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:19 (twenty years ago) link
(Fwiw, as a Brit who's lived in the States at various points, I do find in US indie circles a certain distrust of image, or fabulation in the bands they like. I think this is partly because in the states indie culture exists in a space of its own much more - on college radio etc. In the UK I think we are all basically Pop Kids - even those of us who have complete collections of the Sarah back catalogue. The way UK indie discos will play, eg Justin Timberlake would be kind of anathema in the states I think.)
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:19 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:21 (twenty years ago) link
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:24 (twenty years ago) link
I think this is very easy to do whether you know what the performers look like or not. I was thinking of this exact Eno quote while listening to TV On The Radio the other day, and I know what they look like.
― anode (anode), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:25 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:27 (twenty years ago) link
― prima_fassy (mwah), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:28 (twenty years ago) link
― cozémodo (Cozen), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:29 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 22 February 2004 21:30 (twenty years ago) link