The American Smiths

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I was quite surprised to find that you weren't Australian, Calum. For some reason I assumed you were - you sound like one.

electric sound of jim, Thursday, 27 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nah - Aussies hate everybody, I hate no one. I just wind folk up.

Calum Robert, Thursday, 27 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

(Actually, Calum, this is another instance where actually having read the thread would have provided you with particularly relevant information about my level of American-ness. Congratulations on a successful wind-up, too: I'm having to look at pictures of emo girls in their underwear to relax and leave that piece of bait alone.)

nabisco%%, Thursday, 27 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I lived with three of you while doing my masters last year (I'm finishing it right now which should indicate to you I'm not dim)

Masters' degrees have little to do with whether or not one is 'dim'

geeta, Thursday, 27 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

A few more points, as I'm tired, and I'm not entirely convinced that you're not just another troll:

1) Forming your opinion of a country based on the nationality of your flatmates is the textbook definition of 'dim'.
2) Arguments about the relative merits of British vs American universities could get ugly fast.
3) G'n'R in their heyday were a lot better than you're giving them credit for. In my early teen years I despised G'n'R and loved The Smiths. Years later, I took my dreary indie blinders off, gave "Appetite" another listen, and realized how much I enjoyed it. Now, well into my twenties, I like both bands a good deal. I do agree, though, that late-period G'n'R was pretty bad (almost as dreadful as late-period solo Morrissey, but not quite)
4) 'History' is overrated. Embrace the new.

geeta, Thursday, 27 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

But Geeta, surely the average ILM troll would realize that Americans don't call people "dim."

nabisco%%, Thursday, 27 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'm also gald that you can call me dim, when - with all seriousness, you DID try and make a link between Guns n Roses and The Smiths

calum, it was actually me who started the thread with the idea of some commonality between guns'n'roses and the smiths, not nabisco. it was something i wasn't sure of, but i've come to see it more (perhaps not in a literalist sense, no, but on an intuitive level, for me, yes). anyway, i read that article yesterday, and wasn't that impressed with it, the similarities in that were superficial/humourous, i definitely think its something along the lines of punk and glam, but then making music that doesn't particularly fit into either

calum, is it ok if we don't have the 'americans are wankers' type stuff on this thread, i am interested in the premise of the question and i'd prefer it if it didn't get sidetracked by abuse and stuff. (we could just start an 'americans are rubbish' thread if you like?)

gareth, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

gareth's question is of course smart and interesting: calum's "uni bar" is presumably full of the same prats that *all* such places are full of, across the entire world (the ppl whose opinions matter here are the ones in his uni LIBRARY heh!)

more of us shd wear union jack tea-cosies on our heads in my opinion

mark s, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh but Americans are so much fun to wind up...

Listen - funny story, I lived with this total ugly Texas henk and she was sooo thick. She sat down to the news one day and said:

"These guys in Afghanastan are so dumb. I mean, if someone was going to bomb England I'd just get ona train and go elsewhere."

She said this with a straight face. How the hell does that get a degree let alone become accepted for a masters??? OK, so I know the answer ($$$$) but it's a sham.

I used to invite my friends from Scotland and London to my house at this point just to meet them because words would just not do the Americans justice. You HAD to meet them. They had the social skills of a retarded hyeena.

Calum Robert, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Maybe you attract idiots like moths to a flame. You're really being so remarkably blockheaded here. What exactly is your problem here? That your mighty Smiths were mentioned in the same breath as G'n'R? I hate G'n'R too... But I still can see the worth in the parallel. You say your taste in music is "huge", but you also seem to imply that it is immovable and above all, RIGHT. I cannot see how one can love music but be so adverse to being challenged, and resistant to flexibility. You came with your mind made up, and will not even acknowledge when people challenge your position. You are not here to discuss music, but to rain down your righteous opinion upon the needy. Thank you very much, but we don't have much need for your useless proclamations.

Melissa W, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

according to my inner formalist, all aermicans are wankers thread must go over on ILE - if you'll jsut step this way....

Now,a s to GNR = Smiths, Morrisey articulated the inner angst whilst Axl projected the outer angsts of many a suburban queer confused white boy in the big city, disguised in lyrics on impersonality - listen to Estranged, or (if you can) ignoring the homophobic racist shtick of One in A Million, listen to the imploring, the attempts at reaching out slashed down by rejection (bad verbage I know). As to the band itself, not being familiar with the Smiths chronology of death, I can only say that I imagine the relationship between AXl-Slash and Morrisey-Marr to be similar - Axl appears with Elton, Morrisey with Siouxe (yes?), whilst Slash appears with wacko Jacko and Marr with Oasis or Primal Scream or whoever those tossers are.

Queen I am neither Buffy nor the Messiah G, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"Definitely. In the same league as Def Leppard, Van Halen, Bon Jovi, AC/DC and Queen. Stadium rock/hardrock." Sorry but this is the funniest thing I've ever read. Are you American by any chance?

No. But elaborate, what is so funny about placing G'nR in this list?

I think we can safely say that both bands are among the best in their genre, but personally, I think both genres are equally worthless and of limited use outside their target audiences of alienated teenagers and pathetic adults stuck in their childhood. Regarding both The Smiths and G'nR, I can't think of ANY band worth listening to that has taken these bands as influences. Just like Michael Jackson: he was arguably pretty good at what he did, but thank the Gods that there's only one of him and music considered him a dead end.

Siegbran Hetteson, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

w-wha?

Sterling Clover, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

How about - CalumN SHEARER to thread?

the pinefox, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

What really bothers me isn't necesairly that Calum is a wrong-headed brit elitist, but that he does such a piss-poor job of it. Surely any arrogant Britton worth their salt would prefer "takin' the mickey" over "winding you up"? And- for shame- he forsakes the sacred "mate" in favour of "pal"!

Daniel_Rf, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No. But elaborate, what is so funny about placing G'nR in this list?
Well, Calum Robert can't seem to see that -- despite the obvious differences -- GnR and the Smiths filled similar niches. Granted, the fact that one band is made of Americans (ergo, smelly uncouth barbarians) and the other is British (ergo, classy sublime superhumans), we are not permitted to mention them in the same breath.
Were not even allowed to mention them in the same breath as AC/DC, who, being Australian, are completely better than GnR. Ho Ho Ho.

Lord Custos III, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Look it's this simple:

Guns n Roses sound nothing like The Smiths, they look nothing like The Smiths, the lyrics are not even comparable (Morrissey being great, Axl being slightly less than great or even passable) and they appealed to different types of people. Plus one was a stadium rock outfit who were in it for the money the drugs and the groupies. One was an indie group that changed people's lives and changed the course of British music.

Now do you understand? The two have nothing in common. And I repeat: they didn't even sound alike. AND whether you like it or not, The Smiths are still seen as great, brilliant etc, Gunsn Roses are seen as crap, a joke band etc.

So the two have even left different legacies.

If you still like Guns n Roses in the year 2002 you must be American in which case aren't you better off attending Counting Crows concerts and nuking third world countries or building McDonald's in developing nations than debating this thread?

Calum Robert, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

But what's mind-boggling is if the Smiths and the UK = classy/sublime and GnR and the US = smelly/uncouth, surely Calum should be agreeing with the proposition that GnR are the American Smiths!

Q.: How the hell does that get a degree let alone become accepted for a masters?

A.: Evidently she goes to the UK, and applies for the same masters program as you.

nabisco%%, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

calum, have you ever been wrong about anything ever?

gareth, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Whoa, whoa, whoa, how come no one noticed THIS before?

"I will say this as well - The Manics are not best suited to be compared to Guns n Roses either. A far better band that changed lives and kicked ass on stage."

But That Bloke Out Of Manic Street Preachers admitted himself that he wanted his band to be a mix of Guns 'N' Roses and Public Enemy!!

Daniel_Rf, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Touché

Lord Custos III, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

interesting point. its correct that the manics wanted to be a like gnr, but they were trying too hard to be like another band for that to work. initerestingly, for me, both gnr and the smiths had elemetns that wanted to be like the new york dolls, but then this didn't really come out in their music that much at all, or at least, it wasn't immediately obvious - ie they were both punk bands, but fans of both bands didn't know this. the irony that the fans of both bands would hate the other is quite amusing too

gareth, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"calum, have you ever been wrong about anything ever?"

No.

P.S. Yes you're right - the Manics did actually want to be a UK Guns n Roses/ Public Enemy. They were far too good to be the former in my humble opinion.

P.P.S Funny yank story no.987 - I switched on Brass Eye one night and was killing myself laughing when one of the Americans got up and left, having neither laughed nor been offended. 'You know I don't think I get this type of humour' she said in her vacant Texan growl.

Calum Robert, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

the fact that morrisey went to live in los angeles was always an inevitablility as well, because if he was going to go to america, which he always was, then los angeles was the only possible destination for him

gareth, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

ahem. i'm putting in my obligitory mention of goat wank for this thread.

doom monger, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sports Comentator 1: For those of you keeping score, its Goat Wank: 17, Spackle: 6.
Sports Comentator 2: Well, lets hope that Polyphilla Polytechnic rallies in the second half or else it'll be a veeerrry messy defeat.

Lord Custos III, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

haha this thread is just making me want to go rebuy 'appetite' for the first time in years

Josh, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

the fact that morrisey went to live in los angeles was always an inevitablility as well, because if he was going to go to america, which he always was, then los angeles was the only possible destination for him
So where's Axl's destined British destination?

Lord Custos III, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Why the House of Lords, of course. "Sir Axl" has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

s woods, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

S-s-s-s-s-surely Calumn's uni bar?

DG, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I can't answer this coz I don't know much about the Smiths.

jel --, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The Smiths are still seen as great, brilliant etc, Gunsn Roses are seen as crap

Why the emphasis on "how they are seen"? I mean, Michael Jackson is widely seen as the King of Pop. While I wouldn't even want to be seen touching any of his albums with a ten foot pole.

Mind you, while G'nR are quite uniformly (and rightly) ridiculed, the amount of The Smiths haters can not be underestimated. 50,000,000 Smiths haters can't be wrong.

Say, that actually sound quite good...

Siegbran Hetteson, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yes, Imagine the album cover. 100 Mozz's in gold lame suits, grinning widely and covered with splatters of rotten tomatoes.

Lord Custos III, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Cornershop to thread!

Daniel_Rf, Friday, 28 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i am not american, and i am still horny over the september reelease date for chinese democracy

Queen I am neither Buffy nor the Messiah G, Saturday, 29 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

What an interesting parallel, Gareth. I would've never thought of putting guns and roses and the smiths in the same sentence but here we are.

I think that having read the thread there seems to be far more of a connection than I would've thought abt before but I have never given much thought to Guns and roses (its just time and place, I guess).

Both bands are something you grow out of but you'll always remember the happy memories they gave you. In terms of sound it's different and the same. I definetely get the stones' comparison to both and lyrically they did appeal to adolescents, just like every other band who had some degree of success. Guns n'Roses are surely more in the minds of other bands because they were huge. The smiths had a few chart hits in the UK but were a cult following.

Nirvana's seuccess of course, is due to the use of the power chord. they were a heavy metal band with diff. lyrical themes (though maybe not so far from the Roses). grunge is what you get when you splice punk w/heavy metal.

Its amazing to think Calum has a degree. He is acting like some bad comedian out of the 1970s (Bernard Manning comes to mind). No wonder Mark E Smith hates students. Like nabisco, i thought he must have been 13 or so. It boggles the mind.

''Sorry, everyone for acting embarrassingly like Julio and even bothering to engage over this one.''

Oh, come off it Nabisco...the way ILM is constructed, you can get into arguments that just snowball. You have argued at quite a lenght too and so have quite a few on the Sleeper thread. But yes, it is time to stop and get back into more constructive, thought-provoking discussions.

Julio Desouza, Saturday, 29 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Appetite for Descrution is only £4.99 in the HMV sale! It's worth getting!

jel --, Saturday, 29 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

'descrution'!!!! that rulez!! other 4.99 bargains: 'meat is order', 'the queen is kind of dead'

geeta, Saturday, 29 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

descrution should only be performed by a licensed vet with special tools and a sterile dropcloth.

Lord Custos III, Saturday, 29 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

oh no! not another pinketron type incident! hehe! :)

jel --, Sunday, 30 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

three months pass...
You can take any two arbitrary bands and draw up parallels. Why does the GNR and Smiths parallel tend to stand out?

On the website Smith & Wesson, I could find only superficial similarites.
1. Controversial lyrics: not uncommon (great for publicity as well)
Now if they had controversial lyrics for the *same* reason,then
I would've been more impressed. But as it is, Moz's controversial lyrics are not nearly as controversial as "faggots, niggers, hating immigrants" of GNR's.
2. Bands featuring "one-named" members. Common as well.
3. Neither singers used their real name. Typically it's the singer who is "one-named" in which case obviously he would not be using his real name. Name-changing is quite common.
4. Both lead guitarists are from the UK, and neither used their real name. Here we go with the name thing again. Is it that big of a deal to mention it 3 times? It is interesting that both were from the UK however..
5. Members of both bands declare their supremacy. Quite common as well.

In the end, these parallels don't really stand out much.

The only major parallels I see between the two are the following:
1. Both GNR and The Smiths served to creating a huge buzz in their respective music worlds with continued fascination to this day.
2. Both bands seemed to have arrived at a musically dreary period and helped rejuvenate the music scene.
3. Both bands thrived on controversy.
4. Axel on quest for

anonymoususer, Saturday, 12 October 2002 16:28 (twenty-two years ago) link

one year passes...
Oh, this is a beautiful premise for a thread, let's revive it!

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 06:29 (twenty years ago) link

one year passes...
i think of Guns'n'Roses as the American version of The Smiths

the strokes' first impressions of earth = what "guns 'n' roses as the american version of the smiths" really sounds like? use your illusion I + strangeways?

dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 02:14 (eighteen years ago) link

That's kinda frightening.

(I still stand by my Weezer comparison as being apt for late nineties/early this decade time. Now, not so much.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 02:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I still think of For Against as being the American Smiths.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 30 January 2006 02:49 (eighteen years ago) link

i rather spend fifteen minutes with jeff runnings than morrissey

electric sound of jim (and why not) (electricsound), Monday, 30 January 2006 03:02 (eighteen years ago) link

six months pass...
perhaps you have some newer ideas about this conundrum?

-- (688), Sunday, 13 August 2006 05:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Bright Eyes

nicky lo-fi (nicky lo-fi), Sunday, 13 August 2006 06:53 (eighteen years ago) link

Wait a minute. Guns and Roses the American version of the Smiths? How has this travesty of a comparison occured?

Bright Eyes is a much better place to start. But unforunately there is no American version of the Smiths. There couldn't be.

Kiss My Grits! (Bimble...), Sunday, 13 August 2006 07:58 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm glad this thread has been revived, it's got some comdey gold from Calum.

Plus one was a stadium rock outfit who were in it for the money the drugs and the groupies.

And some members of the Smiths weren't?

i am not american, and i am still horny over the september reelease date for chinese democracy

-- Queen I am neither Buffy nor the Messiah G (effexxo...) (webmail), June 29th, 2002 2:00 AM.

Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Sunday, 13 August 2006 09:11 (eighteen years ago) link


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