Rolling Teenpop 2007 Thread

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Writer and Jew Abby McDonald can't get a log-in to nu-ILX at the moment, and asked me to post this:

Taking this back to Robyn - Lex, I think you're on the wrong track re: pop/extremism. Actually, I know you are. Maybe the editing muddled the meaning, but Robyn was talking about 'more' as in, songwriting. She wanted more melodies, songs that had more human emotion to them, that somehow went further than Gwen delivered. And no, she wasn't making a statement about 'human emotion = proper music/pop' etc, it was part of a conversation about her taste and influences - the songs she admired and artists she connected with. As in, her personal love of music rather than any statement about what was 'good'

Also, she wasn't 'sounding off'. In fact, she was giggling adorably :)

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:10 (nineteen years ago)

But what I'm interested in is not the formal (empty) legitimacy implied by "all art is legitimate", but substantive social legitimacy, and the process of adjudication which considers pop (or whatever) to be worthy of the formal legitimacy you have granted it. Legitimisation is always performed, even if the conclusion is foregone.

I absolutely agree. In fact, I'm not sure the concept of "legitimacy" can exist outside a social framework. I don't think there is such a thing as "aesthetic legitimacy" (hundreds of posts will now inform that I'm wrong), or at least there shouldn't be. How you define "social legitimacy", though, is probably as difficult as defining art. And no, I don't believe there's a consensus about what art is. If there were, this thread, and all of ILM, wouldn't exist, and the world would be a dull, dull place. But if I'm going to make any sense at all, even if it's only to myself, I need to pretend to know what art is. Or, to put it less ironically, I need to know what I think art is (subject to change without notice, of course). If I don't do that, I'm worthless as a critic, and what I write would be even more confused than it already is.

Frank: No harm done. I tend to lean toward the "pop as package" theory, in which everything is a form of marketing. It's not necessarily meant as an insult, just what I consider a necessary perspective.

But Yung Jac! Does this mean I get to make a mixtape with Ludacris on it?

― AKA Mr. Jaq, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:47 (nineteen years ago)

Just listened to the Avril, btw. Not bad, but she really needs those hooks, because when they're not there the melodrama is deafening.

― AKA Mr. Jaq, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:50 (nineteen years ago)

Mediabase reports "Never Again" getting 1,276 Top 40 spins over about 5 days. Prorating that to seven days, that's 1,786, which would put it at about 30 in the Top 40 airplay chart. I don't know how that rates in relation to how her earlier songs started. The song is fairly weak on adult contemporary, which is still playing "Walk Away" and "Behind These Hazel Eyes" a lot more. And it's gotten only a handful of spins on "rhythmic" (hip-hop/r&b/dance) and no plays at all on the active rock or alternative stations.

The incredible journey of Pink's "U + Ur Hand" continues - now at number six in Top 40 airplay (7,159 spins) and still rising strong; Avril's "Girlfriend" at number ten and rising strong; Fergie's "Glamorous" at number four but will probably top off in the next couple of weeks; but significantly she's also up to number four on the hip-hop/r&b stations and rising stronger there; Rihanna's "Umbrella" is number 21 in Top 40 plays and rising very strong, and is at 28 in hip-hop/r&b and rising there, though not with such strength. Timberlake's "Summer Love" is taking off on Top 40 but much weaker on hip-hop/r&b. Maroon 5 "Makes Me Wonder" with a good start on Top 40, some though not a lot of action on "rhythmic," but in the top 20 on adult contemporary.

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

And LAX Gurlz getting no spins on Top 40 but are getting about 20 a week on Radio Disney.

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:31 (nineteen years ago)

And - uh - sorry, Frank, if posting this is stepping on any toes.

No prob. I was going to say something about CTRL-F, so you said about what I would have said.

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:14 (nineteen years ago)

I fear "Never Again" may be too edgy for Top 40 and too Kelly Clarkson for rock. If the world had any justice it'd go to number one on the modern rock station.

My opinion on the song is changing almost every time I listen to it, but I'm still pretty sure it's one of the very best singles I've heard so far this year. I just think it's still behind "Since U Been Gone"/"Behind These Hazel Eyes"/"Because of You". Right now I'm still inclined to list "Babies" as my fave 07 single thus far.

― Greg Fanoe, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:38 (nineteen years ago)

I thought this MTV.com interview with Kelly Clarkson was v. interesting: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1557541/20070418/id_0.jhtml

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:33 (nineteen years ago)

From the Rolling Country thread:

In other less contentious news that hopefully won't make me seem like so much of a jerk, I finally decided that the cdbaby albums I recommened above by both Brandie Frampton and Tracy Delucia, despite both having a handful of real good songs, are both more uneven than I might have previously implied.

(In the end, I prefer the new Hilary Duff album to either of them, even though I'm getting the idea from the increasingly cryptic teen-pop thread that some people consider Hilary's new one a forced maturity/dignity move and hence a retreat for her. I don't hear it that way at all, but then again, I'm still waiting for her earlier stuff -- none of which albums I have around here anymore, sadly -- to connect with me.) (But this isn't country, duh.)

-- xhuxk, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:04 (2 days ago)

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:21 (nineteen years ago)

Good Charlotte, "Dance Floor Anthem"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyg5_Chmmxg

Buckingham to Duff's Nicks?!

― da croupier, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:40 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, what I love about the Hilary album is that she wants it to be a dignity move, but fails (maybe I'm misreading her intentions but I don't think that's too out-there of a suggestion). It's really pretty bonkers as an album, and the more bonkers it is, the more I generally like it...though even most of the non-bonkers material is good.

Is this thread cryptic? It does seem a little insular for me to depend on this thread so much and post nowhere else...it's a bit like what Eppy talked about a little while back, everyone kind of retreating to "their genre" -- or in this case, using the genre thread(s) to put all their posts regardless of subject -- and not trying to win anyone over where it's not likely they'll be receptive (arguing about/for Paris's album on the Reynolds thread was a lost cause and I felt out of place, though broader discussion was somewhat interesting).

― dabug, Friday, 20 April 2007 18:37 (nineteen years ago)

I like the new Avril a lot. We've all talked about Girlfriend, But "I Can Do Better" and "Runaway" have the same energy and richness of melody. Even when a song occasionally sounds like derivative pop-punk (Everything Back but You), Avril's lyrics and vocals carry it. And I absolutely adore the power-ballads "Runaway" and "Hot." For all of Avril's attitude, maybe she's still best at pure love songs.

The second half of the album isn't so great, and I think the (non-power) ballads kind of drag. But I think this will be a worthy challenger to Kelly's record.

― Matt Armstrong, Friday, 20 April 2007 19:26 (nineteen years ago)

Haven't even had a chance to listen to the Hilary or the Avril yet, I've been so busy. Just one more week until my life returns to normal. On the other had, listening to Radio Diz for the first time in a while yesterday and an interview with Miley Cyrus on the new songs for season 2: (paraphrase) - "We're going in a more pop direction this year. I mean, the music last season was pop too, but this is more like disco and fun and girly."

― Greg Fanoe, Saturday, 21 April 2007 17:36 (nineteen years ago)

The idea of hannah montana season 2 OST being MORE fun and girly is mind-boggling.

― Matt Armstrong, Saturday, 21 April 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

I agree Matt, and what's even weirder is that it doesn't at all relate to the two season 2 songs ("Nobody's Perfect" and "Make Some Noise") that have been released so far

― Greg Fanoe, Saturday, 21 April 2007 18:36 (nineteen years ago)

I played "Never Again" out loud in my office today. A 19 year old co-worker was aggressively outraged. "What the fuck are you playing? What are you playing this for?" "It's the new Kelly Clarkson single." "That's what I mean! Why the fuck are you playing this?" Emphasis on the this, not the you. "I think it's pretty good. It's not as good as "Since You've Been Gone" though". "I can't believe this". I must have looked crestfallen cos she then relented a bit. "I am a music fascist, though."

This was my only teenpop-related incident of the last few weeks, I guess.

― Groke, Saturday, 21 April 2007 18:42 (nineteen years ago)

my recent incident was "you have to choose Matt, Paris Hilton or me."

I'm still thinking it over.

― Matt Armstrong, Saturday, 21 April 2007 21:15 (nineteen years ago)

So what do people (Brits, Germans, Canadians, anybody) know about Pretty Donkey Girl? A google search suggests she's "the new Crazy Frog," and "Dolly Song" is a big ringtone apparently, which is good, because so far it's my favorite song (post-Boney M Cossak disco or something?) on the pre-release CD that fell into my lap at work. Said mule-like mammal (who strangely looks more like a lady hippopotamus on the CD cover) seems to also have a taste for Caribbean rhythms, as witness her excellent cover of Chubby Checker's "Limbo Rock plus "La Isla Bonita" plus "Don't Worry Be Happy" plus "Holly Samba," but she additionally dabbles in ragtime ("Pretty Intro," which is actually "The Entertainer" by Scott Joplin), bubble-goth ("Horror Show," total Lene Lovich/Nina Hagen new wave), country disco ("Mister Joe," her in retrospect inevitable and of course more than welcome version of Rednex' version of "Cotton Eye Joe") and early '60s pop ("Lollipop," which is the "oh lolly lolly" "Lollipop" -- who did that? it was always on TV commercials for oldies compilations for years, I kinda hated it then, and I haven't thought about in forever -- not Millie Small oddly enough since Millie would fit in with the island-rhythm theme), and more. And o'ourse it's all turned into "Hamster Dance"-style chipmunk-punk techno, as it should be. Is this on kids TV somewhere, or what? It's great!

― xhuxk, Sunday, 22 April 2007 01:01 (nineteen years ago)

Oops, left out the Teutonic cabaret dance track "Ciao Ciao Goodbye" (I know it's Teutonic 'cause it sez "auf weidersehen" in there somewhere.)

― xhuxk, Sunday, 22 April 2007 01:08 (nineteen years ago)

Trivia Question:

If you were to describe Hannah Montana's awesomeness using only metaphors, how awesome would you say Ms. Cyrus is?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 22 April 2007 02:02 (nineteen years ago)

my recent incident was "you have to choose Matt, Paris Hilton or me."

I'm still thinking it over.

-- Matt Armstrong, Saturday, 21 April 2007 21:15 (Yesterday)

Matt, please keep us informed as to how this plays out.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 22 April 2007 05:19 (nineteen years ago)

Mordy: Miley Cyrus is about as awesome as a chronic, persistent, and extremely annoying respiratory infection.

― Dimension 5ive, Sunday, 22 April 2007 05:25 (nineteen years ago)

"Matt, please keep us informed as to how this plays out."

Will do.

When it comes to metaphors, I always get stuck on the first one that comes to mind, even if it's not so great. With that said, I think Hannah Montana is as awesome as chocolate ice cream with crumbled reese's pieces on top.

― Matt Armstrong, Sunday, 22 April 2007 05:41 (nineteen years ago)

Dolly Song" is a big ringtone apparently, which is good, because so far it's my favorite song (post-Boney M Cossak disco or something?)

More Haysi Fantayzee than Boney M, I'd say now, with a definite sea shantey meets Make 'Em Mokum Crazy bubblegabba bent. And "My Name Is Holly" is a rap ("When I say Holly you say Dolly" -- possible reference to Kano's 1980 metal-infused gay Eurodisco hit "Holly Dolly"??); "Holly's Farm" is basically "Old McDonald Had a Farm" done by robots.

― xhuxk, Sunday, 22 April 2007 19:36 (nineteen years ago)

Also both "Holly Samba" (one of my favorites, along with "Dolly Song" and "Mister Joe") and "My Name Is Holly" are propelled by hey-hey-hey gang shouts.

Some youtube clues:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z77aY_LhxAc

"Dolly Song" is the same as "Holly Dolly" I guess.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dwI4S6MH8zQ

At the end of the first one of those, the tag says "Netherlands," so maybe the nonsense words are in Dutch? I was starting to wonder if the donkey came from Japan. (The "Holly Dolly" video has anime-like parts. Not sure what to make of that little blackface-like bug character toward the end though.)

Also, interesting to note from youtube comments that I'm not alone in my "That's a hippo" opinion.

― xhuxk, Sunday, 22 April 2007 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

Comment attached to second one:

its finnish, not gibberish

"Slap & Tickle" is not on my copy of the CD, oddly. (It also does not appear to be a Squeeze cover.)

― xhuxk, Sunday, 22 April 2007 20:07 (nineteen years ago)

Holly Dolly has been a hit all over Europe now, one of those things that seems to crop up in France or Germany then get followed by several imitators. I tend to avoid them.

DJ Otzi is #1 in Germany at the moment, BTW. Teenpop thread regulars may remember Tokio Hotel; they're #3, fresh off the back of having had a hit in France with their previous single, somehow.

At #53 - 'Ich Rocke', by Debbie Rockt! I shall investigate and report back swiftly.

― William Bloody Swygart, Sunday, 22 April 2007 20:07 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNXOf9uKnWs

It's a bit boring.

― William Bloody Swygart, Sunday, 22 April 2007 20:10 (nineteen years ago)

xp: Why avoid them??? Europe is so lucky!!!

Myspace etc. bring Italy into the equation:

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=96168005

http://www.holly-dolly.eu/

Aren't Tokio Hotel sort of a glam-rock band?

― xhuxk, Sunday, 22 April 2007 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

14-year-old new metallers, if I remember rightly, though they aren't especially heavy. Lead singer is a boy who could best be described as 'androgynous'.

― William Bloody Swygart, Sunday, 22 April 2007 20:21 (nineteen years ago)

Omg. Just the idea of Jordan Sparks doing "You'll Never Walk Alone" from Carousel makes shivers go down my back. I haven't heard it yet, but I'm calling greatest performance of Sparks all season.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:47 (nineteen years ago)

*deep breath* Wow.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:01 (nineteen years ago)

kinda pitchy but she did her thing, she sold it all the way, she's the best

― Dimension 5ive, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:44 (nineteen years ago)

It was good but her emotion continues to be well ahead of her singing. She's still my fave.

― Greg Fanoe, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:04 (nineteen years ago)

Translating "Never Again" from what's here to a NIN song would take almost no effort.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:47 (nineteen years ago)

As for "angry" being a surprise--I thought "angry" was an integral part of the whole Kelly thing; it's there under most everything she sings, giving texture if only that.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:50 (nineteen years ago)

Why not, Rolling RD for...what's today...4/25/07: New Hannah Montana (don't remember what it sounds like) on top, two covers by the newly-diabetic Jonas Brothers make 2 and 3, Akon delivers on my promise for him to be the "closest 'Ignition Remix' gets to Radio Disney" by debuting at 11 with "Don't Matter," no sign of the muthafuckin princess (duh). Ever(onicas)life seems to have petered out after the, like, eighth best song on Secret Life Of... fails to pass the TEST OF TIME. In the mailbag: Nickelodeon penetrates the Disneyverse with Naked Brothers Band (but barely, so it probably won't go too far -- more boys who sing like girls, anyway). Does the girl in that new show iCarly sing? I remember her being the band manager in School of Rock, should probably get the cross-promo pop album gravy train started up soon if she can sing. In the incubator: Bittersweet, who I can't seem to stream more than two seconds at a time at the moment.

And if you haven't been paying attention, Hilary Duff looks like this now:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95/nameom/hilaryandroid.jpg

― dabug, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 22:31 (nineteen years ago)

Slight resemblance?

― dabug, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

how can I hear all these new hannah montana singles? I can't find a myspace for her, nor are they on any of the music download sites I frequent.

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 26 April 2007 04:33 (nineteen years ago)

Listen to Radio Disney (streaming online at their website http://www.radiodisney.com, now whether ya like it or not) for about...oh, twelve minutes or so.

― dabug, Thursday, 26 April 2007 04:37 (nineteen years ago)

(requires Internet Explorer and does not like Firefox very much at all.)

― dabug, Thursday, 26 April 2007 04:38 (nineteen years ago)

Plus there's youtube: Nobodys Perfect. Not great quality. Also not a great song.

― dabug, Thursday, 26 April 2007 04:46 (nineteen years ago)

Dave, I agree that "Nobody's Perfect" and "Make Some Noise" are some pretty weak Hannah Montana songs. Disappointing!

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 26 April 2007 13:33 (nineteen years ago)

By the way "Girlfriend" jumps to number one and is the first non-R&B, non-American idol proper pop song to reach number one in...god, years ("Bad Day" and "You're Beautiful" were number one last year but not proper pop!). OK, I'll actually look it up. Since "Come On Over Baby (All I Want Is You)" by Xtina in 2000!

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 26 April 2007 13:55 (nineteen years ago)

Tim, upthread:

Ashlee's probing and restless braniacity is also to some extent her "rockism", although there's perhaps a separate "rockism" at work in the way in which that is recognised by almost no rock critics.

Change "rock critics" to "listeners" and I'm very interested in this sort of thing. Reasonable people can differ on what constitutes an attempt at legitimacy, but I think there are times when we can all agree that someone's making a stab at it, when they're trying not to be successful or make what they want to make but to be taken seriously. (These times include maybe pianos, string sections, or Diane Warren.) And what happens when these attempts (which I think can be viewed as an attempt at establishing yourself, which is to say trying to gain job security) fail? When it's seen as a calculated move and it backfires? I think this is a key dynamic in teenpop right now--the artist's swing from "I want to be successful" to "I want to be taken seriously" to "whoops, I want to be successful again and/or do what I actually want, since the whole legitimacy thing isn't going to work." Not saying it happens in everyone, but it's happening with some artists, and curious how it might look without the second step, or if the second step succeeded, or what.

Not really sure where to go with this, but I'm really interested in stuff that's trying to be chart pop but doesn't get accepted as such.

― Eppy, Thursday, 26 April 2007 16:52 (nineteen years ago)

How is "Come On Over" not R&B but "Sexyback" is? And "Bad Day" isn't proper pop? WTF is proper pop?

― da croupier, Thursday, 26 April 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

As you've excluded british ballads I can't even assume you're talking about aryan majesty or something.

If we exclude balladry, it's the first rock song to hit #1 since "How You Remind Me," though!

― da croupier, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

I've been trying to explore some of this in recent columns, and might do something on "seriousness" in the "take me seriously" sense, what "seriously" might mean (the hair thing was hinting at some of these ideas). What's exciting about teenpop artists is that there's no real outline for them; they're kind of making it up as they go along, and a lot of them are making it up at the same time. So you see weird stuff like Lindsay disses as both an attempt to be more fun (Ashlee) and an attempt to be more "serious" (Hilary), hair color as indicator of the paradox of "legitimacy," seemingly arbitrary differentiation (I'm not fake like [insert commonly-perceived-as-"illegitimate" artist], I'm real like [insert commonly-perceived-as-"illegitimate" artist]). It's like what Tom mentioned, where a friend discounted Kelly Clarkson as part of a class of people that (presumably) includes Britney, Lindsay, Ashlee. Whereas in the complicated and sort of arbitrary legitimacy terrain within teenpop, it's Lindsay and Paris (fake) versus Kelly Clarkson (real).

There seems to be a kind of incipient anarchy happening in regard to legitimacy as involvement in corporate/institutional models of record distribution -- also a big issue in indie music, where indie has come to mean something social in distinction rather than aesthetic or economic -- with broad, confusing indicators of personality (type of dress, hair color, "stupid girls" kinda stuff) becoming a vague symbol of imminent doom thru excess capitalistic whatever (Hilary to LiLo: "can't buy respect but you can pick up the bill"). These positions are clearly ridiculous and essentially random (like most "positions" on Paris Hilton), mostly because this is playing out like improv, where the scene is developing and you have to stay true to it, regardless of how bizarre it gets. (And, like in improv, you NEVER deny the scene, you have to play by the rules as they're being made.)

― dabug, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

My definition of R&B for the above, which is admittedly rather inclusive, is hit the R&B charts. Which excludes some probably not-R&B songs like "Hollaback Girl" or "SOS" but I mean something that isn't even arguably R&B. "SexyBack" is R&B because it hit #11 on the R&B charts. As far as I know, and heck I may be wrong, "Come On Over" didn't make an impact on the R&B charts. Though I agree that "Come On Over" is probably about as R&B as "SexyBack" or "SOS" or whatever, I'm just going off of what the R&B stations actually played. Probably speaks more to the broadening of R&B radio than anything else, but that's a topic for a different thread.

"Bad Day" and "You're Beautiful" were both Top 40 hits, not genre hits at all, which makes them proper pop, of course. I was just making a bit of a joke (ie I don't like the songs and therefore they are not PROPER POP). In any event, when it comes to a fun, poppy, non-genre hit, this is the first example of that type to hit #1 since Xtina. ("Butterfly" and "How You Remind Me" also hit number 1 between Xtina and Avril, but those are modern rock songs).

xpost, I strictly mean the US Billboard Hot 100, which is all I can speak to.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

xpost to Dave

Also kinda interested in how this'll all be viewed years down the line--for instance, some of those trying-to-be-pop groups I'm talking about (like, to pick an example only useful to me, Mpath) are I guess analagous to what we might regard today as "lost soul classics," people working a popular sound but failing to find popularity. (Or are they? Are they more equivalent to, I dunno, failed crooners, who no one really cares about even now?)

Who'll be first-tier in thirty years? Who'll be an also-ran? This is another aspect of legitimacy, although I'm unclear exactly how much any of the teenpop artists have their eye on the judgments of history etc. etc.

― Eppy, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

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