Shania Twain's Ramones T-shirt: C/D?

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Interesting theory, Tom. Lets both become fabulously and obscenely wealthy so we can see if it "changes" us.
To do this experiment right, you have to have handlers and image consultants. And I'll just hire a masseuse and butler. (I'm the control group, y'see.)

― Lord Custos Omega (Lord Custos Omega), Monday, 20 January 2003 16:23 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not sure I agree with Tom's hypothesis; it would seem to me that more of the wealthier people I know tend to have far more restricted (read: refined) tastes, and tend to shut themselves off from a large chunk of *everything* because it doesn't fit into the lifestyle. If the theory was true, you'd be more likely to hear...oh, Danzig, whenever you went into a coffee shop in a wealthy neighborhood, instead of it always being Buena Vista Social Club or Enya.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 20 January 2003 16:30 (twenty-three years ago)

I think there's a distinction between the public face rich people/places present and what individual rich people might like or not like. Also I expect the percentage of rich people who don't care much about music at all anyway is the same as the percentage in every class, and public places like coffee shops cater to those.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 January 2003 16:36 (twenty-three years ago)

This is fascinating - but irrelevant.. just like Shania at CBGB. Sure, she has every right to be there & may in fact like Blondie enough to visit... but what does CBGB have to do with Shania Twain's music or image? What is the photographer trying to convey with that backdrop? It doesn't seem as if Shania or her fans would care about a dank dressing room - and non-fans wouldn't give the picture a second look.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 20 January 2003 17:02 (twenty-three years ago)

But if it doesnt matter then why does it matter to you Dave? It's just a location.

The photographer is trying to convey sleaziness - that nice Shania also has a dirrty side. It's not a very good picture so I wouldn't say it worked.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 January 2003 17:05 (twenty-three years ago)

It doesn't matter to me in that I'm offended.... I just don't get it.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 20 January 2003 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)

(that sentence has lousy grammar... sorry.)

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 20 January 2003 17:07 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the fact that it's CBGBs is just a little Easter-Egg in-joke for people who recognise it (I didn't). It's the ambience that's the intended effect.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 January 2003 17:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Guess which ILMer offered up:
"2002 seemed to be the year that punk seemed to lose all meaning. Worst of all, Shania Twain had the nerve to wear a Ramones T-shirt (strategically torn to draw attention to her breasts) in promotional photos for her new ultrapolished crapload of an album. It's hard to believe that she's ever listened to the Ramones for fun; more likely it's something she found in her dad's... er, I mean her husband's record collection."
Answer found here.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 20 January 2003 22:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Lordy! This thread certainly woke back up. Shit, I go away for a day or two and look at what I missed!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Ok fine, so it's all about advertising - promotion - all's fair, so long as it gets attention? This seems to be a common sentiment lately, and not just on ilm. The crux of the issue for me, and why I actually do sympathise with Sean's original postion on this thread (albeit deep down) is that it *does* seem to smack of manipulation rather than information. It's propaganda, essentially, and the idea of taking all such things at face value rather than asking questions or using the ol' critical eye - well, it feels a lot like giving in.

― Kim (Kim), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:49 (twenty-three years ago)

I think what bugs me Kim is that I feel like I've been benevolently manipulated into liking the Ramones via iconography and marketing ever since I became aware of punk, so funneling a bit of that manipulation towards Shania doesn't seem like compounding the crime too much.

(Also in any marketing exercise designed to appeal to/create a demographic, answering a strong "no" is as useful to Them and Their profiling as answering a strong "yes".)

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 20 January 2003 23:55 (twenty-three years ago)

And THIS is why I hate marketing! The fact that even if you fight - they win! Bastards! Uh... except for you Tom. Of course. Phew...

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 00:04 (twenty-three years ago)

shania fan looks at t-shirt, thinks "hmm, i don't who that is, let's investigate", is somewhat non-plussed by what they hear, but persists bcz their heroine shania is after all wearing it, and gradually realises that HEY they like it, it's exciting and funny and [insert ramones qualities here], ok it;s not shania but it's good also, and maybe they shd look further

if one believes that ppl hearing heard the ramones would — for example — immediately begin to question their allegience to shania, then why complain when she gives the ramones a free endorsement? why is it so awful that outsiders and newbies find out about the ramones?

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 00:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Ask not what Shania can do for the Ramones - ask what the Ramones can do for Shania.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 00:09 (twenty-three years ago)

But that's exactly it - what can they do for her? The only reason to wear it is cos Shania is putting out a 'rock' version of her CD and the Ramones have become a kind of shorthand for 'rock' - but the fact that they have isn't Shania's fault, or her image people. The promotional people don't care about the Ramones' music, or Ramones fans, they care about the image/brand of 'The Ramones' and what it might say to consumers. Now this is terribly cynical (though as Mark S points out the only effects it will have on the Ramones are positive ones i.e. more people hearing them) but how did the band get that brand image in the first place?

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 00:13 (twenty-three years ago)

"I Wanna Be Sedated" has become something of a hit in the last ten years--the classic rock stations probably play it even more than the alternative ones--so why is it so fucking out of the question that Shania--and certainly her hubby--might actually kind of like them? I mean, is their music SO dangerous that this is inconceivable?

And the Ramones legacy is at least as much about fashion as it is about music, anyway--hasn't that been kind of obvious for a long time now?

― s woods, Tuesday, 21 January 2003 01:09 (twenty-three years ago)

the fact that it's CBGBs is just a little Easter-Egg in-joke for people who recognise it

same w/ Shania's shirt, it doesn't say like RAMONES on it, you'd only recognise it as a Ramones shirt if you were already familiar with the logo.

also, one-shouldered tight punk-band shirt = rhinestoned metal shirt etc., which particular band is being referenced really doesn't matter. I'd be more likely to believe Shania really liked the Ramones if she were to wear just an ordinary (not chopped-up) t-shirt of them. Okay yeah chopping up yr garments is "punk" but you know wot I mean.

― Poppy (poppy), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 01:22 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah my portal-to-mysterious-worlds theory won't actually survive a glance at the rubbishness of the promo photo in question, where you wonder why her stylists and market-advisors have chosen to make her look a complete dick

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 01:25 (twenty-three years ago)

i like shania better than the ramones, and it saddens me to see her wearing one of their lousy t shirts. but thats no excuse for atomic kitten to wear VU t shirts.

― di smith (lucylurex), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 01:34 (twenty-three years ago)

I think my brother has the same shirt (only baggy,and with shoulders and sleeves) and it does so say Ramones on it.

I can't get up much righteous ire at the idea of her wearing it when the emo/punk kids at my high school are wearing it too. You can either say "It's fashion and you're only into punk because all of your friends are," or "how neat that you and your friends found out about this interesting music you'd never heard before." I can't see any of them going "oh maybe Shania's not so bad, I should try listening to her," though, they'd just all yell "POSER, I HATE HER!" so it can't be a very good promotional strategy.

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 01:48 (twenty-three years ago)

my brother has the same shirt (only baggy,and with shoulders and sleeves) and it does so say Ramones on it

well, I meant recognizably from a distance! :p Anyway, this Atomic Kitten thing disturbs me way more for some reason (dammit, why should I even give a shit about what people's shirts say??) There's some sort of unwritten (oh it's prob. been written by now on the band t-shirt etiquette thread) thing about wearing your band shirt sincerely vs. ironically, which is somehow being violated here and driving me insane ARGH

― Poppy (poppy), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 02:08 (twenty-three years ago)

To recast ms's familiar argt. re: ads since it seems it's getting groped towards here:

Worrying that Shania's Ramones shirt "demeans" punk concedes that Shania is stronger than the Ramones.

Which I actually think she is, but then I don't particularly mind. Remember Joey (?) supported Reagan but Shania won the "world's sexiest vegetarian award" one year (i shit you not).

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 05:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Alternate theory no 3. Shania's fully aware of the cultural significance of da Brudders and how they are part of the critical canon. She's also aware that her work is at best tolerated, at worst despised by those same people. So she thinks 'I know you think my work is insignificant, but I choose the Ramones as an influence. So if my work's so bad either the Ramones cultural significance is weakened or I'm as culturally significant as those idiots on the T-shirt'.

She's giving a metaphorical finger to those who despise her work, and the righteous ire shown by those who find her appropriation of these images is just more fire in her belly. As they used to say, if you wan't to defeat your enemy sing their song.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 09:47 (twenty-three years ago)

..I think that's an interesting idea, but it's giving Shania/publicist too much credit. I think it's just a "hard rock" shirt they chose to emphasize that Shania can rock. It's possible that they first chose a Van Halen T-shirt and then said, "No, Van Halen are a cheesy 80's hair band. The Ramones are cooler." .. but I think that's about all of the thought that went into it.

..and don't talk about fire in Shania's belly so early in the morning... I have to scroll up to take a look at it.

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 12:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Heh, alt. poss. thought process: 'VH were a cheesy 80's hair band, whereas the Ramones were a cheesy 70's hair band"

― geeta (geeta), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 12:37 (twenty-three years ago)

More like cheesy 50s/60's hair band.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 21:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Y'know what I think it is that's so upsetting about Shania wearing Ramones and AC/DC shirts? It's that she herself is nothing but a sparkless careerist. Based on her press, she's has nothing but contempt for her audience and positively LOATHES being a "public person." Beyond that, her music is completely inconsequential, banal and rife with the same amount of meaningless cliché that plagues, say, the Corrs! Meanwhile, whether you appreciate them or not, the Ramones and AC/DC are artists who have *INSPIRED* people. There are more bands that were spawned in the wake of these two giant names than Shania could ever hope to affect. The Ramones and AC/DC inspire *PASSION* in their fans, whereas Shania merely manufactures fucking PRODUCT and shifts units to consumers who clearly don't have very high musical standards (does this make them subhuman? No, just that music doesn't interest them). Therefore, it is offensive to folks who *DO* take music seriously (whether you think that's silly or not) that Shania is limply trying to imply some affinity/appreciation for individuals who actually make music of quality. I doubt Shania even enjoys music to begin with.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 02:44 (twenty-three years ago)

want critical attention? Hold or wear something you know critics like. We'll just drool all over ourselves coming to terms with the appropriation.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 02:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I know a dude who is definitely inspired to passion by Shania Twain. I think his arm is going to fall off.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 15:53 (twenty-three years ago)

My fiancee thinks Shania's last album was terrific (this one is a let-down though) - she is passionate about those songs, and music affects her hugely even though she hardly ever buys records (mostly cos I have so many). Alex you're just going to have to accept one day that one person's product IS another person's passion - trying to apply your tiresome cock-rock standards as a universal norm is just dumb. (Also inspiring xerox bands is a nightmarishly flawed way to judge anything!).

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

''shania fan looks at t-shirt, thinks "hmm, i don't who that is, let's investigate", is somewhat non-plussed by what they hear, but persists bcz their heroine shania is after all wearing it, and gradually realises that HEY they like it, it's exciting and funny and [insert ramones qualities here], ok it;s not shania but it's good also, and maybe they shd look further''

well if its just a couple of pics this theory won't work will it.

is anyone going to find out in how many pics is shania wearing a ramones t-shirt?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't the more important question whether Joey Ramone ever wore a Shania shirt?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

why not julio?

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:14 (twenty-three years ago)

if she's appearing with it on only a pic then its just another pic. will the ppl know that the ramones are a band? will they even question a name.

whereas if she wears it on several pics then maybe ppl will find out I'm sure.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:29 (twenty-three years ago)

if they're full-on stalkerish fans they'll be crazy for anything she does, the more obscure the better

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:32 (twenty-three years ago)

if they are 'stalkerish' they would find out abt them but they wouldn't listen to them. they would be too busy with listening to shania's stuff.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:34 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.thestar.com/images/030114_lavigne_avril_250.jpg
Fans go crazy for Avril's shirt

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Dave225 is evidently first to really camp out on the money, above: has no one noticed that "vintage rock t-shirts" have recently become a popular fashion item quite apart from anything having to do with the particular band they're for? (The message, obviously, is what Tom delineates above: a vague appropriation of the air and aura of the period, not particularly different from e.g. that American Idol contestant with the dyed-red hair and "punk" attitude.)

In fact I predict that within the next twenty-four months major American retail chains such as the Gap and Old Navy will be selling distressed t-shirts featuring faux-vintage rock art (but either no band specified or one made up); probably sooner, as you can already buy the standard Ramones or CBGBs t-shirts at Urban Outfitters.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Nabisco = OTM.

― mark p (Mark P), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 17:55 (twenty-three years ago)

"shania fan looks at t-shirt, thinks "hmm, i don't who that is, let's investigate", is somewhat non-plussed by what they hear, but persists bcz their heroine shania is after all wearing it, and gradually realises that HEY they like it, it's exciting and funny and [insert ramones qualities here], ok it;s not shania but it's good also, and maybe they shd look further"
Quoting a documentary I saw once: "The first time you hear a Ramones song, you say to yourself 'this is just silly'; the second time you hear the same Ramones song you say to yourself 'Hey...this is kinda catchy...'; the fifteenth time you hear the same Ramones song, you say to yourself 'I could worship this band.' "
Question is can you replace the word 'you' in the above quote with the word 'Shania' and still be logical, possible or plausible?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:51 (twenty-three years ago)

the avril story is funny but doesn't relate to this really. will the ppl that buy that t-shirt go and shop at that place?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Dude, it's HOME HARDWARE, home of the handyman! Now, people that are Avril fans will think of Home Hardware every time they need nails or electrical tape or, like, batteries! Whether they actually make the pilgrimage to Napanee is another story.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:59 (twenty-three years ago)

.. I can't wait for this, if the band names are indeed made up. "Happy Rock Fire Bang"

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:01 (twenty-three years ago)

well, in that case the shania hataz 'lose' heh!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Exactly, Julio. Now every time Shania fans want nails, electrical tape and batteries, they'll call up The Ramones!

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

i doubt grown-up working established musicians grown to WORSHIP other bands: they know too much abt how it's done, how it all works etc etc

there's nothing intrinsically ridiculous about shania growing to like the music of the ramones, even a lot, for exactly the reason you give custos

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:05 (twenty-three years ago)

you forgot glue sean. they'll supply that.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Nope...they never have any left. They all in the back room using it.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:07 (twenty-three years ago)

haha in a surprise burst of speed in the closing stages, custos wins best post of the thread

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 19:13 (twenty-three years ago)

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