Black Sabbath: Classic or Dud?

Later, post-Born Again-era Sabs? Eh, not so much.

except for the classic, vintage lineup's last couple albums. technical ecstasy, anyone? anyone???

There's a thread in the archive on this very subject.

Taking sides : Zeppelin or Sabbath

Taking Sides: Led Zeppelin Vol. 4 vs. Black Sabbath Vol.4

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

robert christgau

yeah, he just made my case. if there were a meter for classic, the red part would go 0 +1 +2 BLACK SABBATH.

My favorite all time UNDER-mentioned Sab songs: "Hand of Doom" "A National Acrobat" "The Thrill Of It All" "Junior's Eyes"

-- steve hise (shistee...), October 27th, 2004.

Sweat Loaf comes ridiculously close to bettering it though.

OK, unless you're really not into heavy rock or metal. Is this the case for you Myonga?

[I couldn't believe that Sabbath even deserved the classic/dud treatment, because I couldn't believe that ANYONE considered 'em duds. I was gonna post an are-you-kidding? reply immediately after my "DUD" assessment. But just before I did, I read Xgau's little blurb about "drug-impaired reaction time" and thought it would be HIGH-larious to wait awhile before changing my opinion, then finally changing it FOR REAL, and then blaming my long delay on...yep, you guessed it! It might've been funnier if I'd waited a day or two, but I've always been terribly impatient.]

Anyway, again, CLASSIC through first six albums; and even the inferior Dio and Gillan lineups produced a great LP between 'em.

Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), October 27th, 2004.

Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

-- Myonga Von Bontee (scottyfield...), October 28th, 2004.

Never heard Technical Ecstacy, but Never Say Die is grebt for the:

- Cover art
- Title track
- The start of 'Air Dance'

The rest is decent, listenable stuff, just not as good as what came before (and it's got synths, not that that's necessarily a bad thing).

Please someone tell me they know the two songs on "The Ozzman Cometh" comp: "Black Sabbath" ('70 Basement Tapes) and "War Pigs" (1970 Basement Tapes).

Both of these songs are clear evidence that BIMBLE IS MORE GOTH THAN YOU.

Um there's actually more than two basement tapes on that comp (if you get the 2xcd version). Don't forget the awesome versions of "Fairies Wear Boots" and "Behind the Wall of Sleep".

I love the production of those tunes and all the alternate lyrics and verses. Total godhead.

yeah I will have to get the 2xCD version.

A goth's work is never done.

is that "war pigs" the "walpurgis" version with the satan/witch themed lyrics? i love that.

yeah that's what it is, dude.

That...

Just... No. Ugh.

<3 cindy und bert <3

Dehumanize is good too people.

heaven & hell did a dehumanizer song that was pretty good. i only knew it was dehumanizer because they put the cover to that album up on the big video screen

Probably Computer God. Maybe TV Crimes.

Back in 2007 Heaven and Hell played "After All (The Dead)", "Computer God", and "I"...the latter of which sounded really great. That song's held up very well.

I is definitely great. I don't know if they played Computer God at the Radio City show I was at.

You've got to be kidding me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/peopleNews/idUSTRE54T00420090531

Advantage: Iommi.

The reaction on dffd and probably all the other boards was "Sharon Is A Cunt"

that should infact be a poll

poll w/ one option

im sure theres x-factor viewers on ILX who like her. but someone do it to find out!

You're it Herm, i have no idea how to do it.

you click on where it says new poll
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/Poll/EnterPollInformationControllerServlet?boardid=41

I think behind the beat is relative to who you're playing with, you can't have everybody behind the beat or else that's not swinging, it's dragging. Same for the reverse.

But yeah, my main takeaway from that set was that Ward was suuuper behind the best in a very confident fashion.

Jazz drummers will talk about certain bassists being very ahead of the beat, like Ray Brown, which let the drummer lay back and create a wide-feeling beat (that the lead voice could lay back on and still have a sense of propulsion). Or, Tony Williams being pretty on top of the beat and wanting the bassist to play even more on top.

But yeah, for backbeat music laying back gives it a sense of weight and groove (essential to Sabbath for sure), I just think it's contextual based on the music and what everyone else is doing.

Scott or UMS or somebody else in a Mott thread made a great point about the lost art of Brit drummers of that era (Ward, Watts, Fleetwood, Buffin etc.), particularly their dues paying in wedding bands, youth club combos and the like allowing them to get a feel for tons of styles and building from there.

The march of time. Try to find a rock drummer who at some point hasn't listened to Metallica, et. al. since then.

This is a great breakdown of Bill's style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkL05mggaCM

Great view from the side of the stage at BTTB if you see how it all works together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeLMjV4nLS8

Went down a Ozzy/Sabbath YT rabbit hole last night and discovered this live performance of "Over the Mountain" with Randy Rhodes that I didn't know existed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57k3AezB2HE

I love that montage over “sabbra cadabbra” at the start of their set. Bittersweet

that Bill Ward drumeo video is great, thx Elvis!

i borrowed Martin Popoff’s “Black Sabbath: Doom Let Loose” from the library. Kind of a kooky writer, but his enthusiasm for the subject is undeniable & has a lot of great primary source material. i’m already well hooked by Ch 2.

Farmers in Northern Scotlsnd pelting the lads with pennies heated over an open flame!? ozzy said they stuck to yr skin. ugh. now that is some real creative effort. Color me impressed lol

There's such a glad proliferation of Sabbath threads lately, and this could totally go into the "non-Ozzy, non-Dio" Sabbath thread, but I REFUSE to let Tony Martin get pigeonholed away like that.

I've been listening to The Eternal Idol daily this week, and it's fucking fantastic. Sabbath is truly the heavy metal band of my heart. I always end up bringing them up when friends try to get me into more relentless metal -- I'd love to love what they send my way, but Iommi spoiled the fuck out of Young Nu by putting Planet Caravan on Paranoid. I *need* softness and mystery amidst my driving/brutal/what have you metal.

The Eternal Idol has that same amazing sense of dynamics. It's mostly fun and loud and riffy but it's impossible to actually get fatigued, because there's always a beautiful softer / slower / more ethereal moment around the bend.

I love how much you love it! I decided to do a full listen through of the whole sabs catalog - had never heard any of the Martin albums before!

I’ll say that I like Eternal Idol but it didnt like, grab me right away. I checked out the Ray Gillen demos of Eternal Idol & i think maybe I prefer ~his~ voice on those songs? idk.

I like Headless Cross maybe the best of the Martin albums so far. Going to attempt Forbidden today (crosses self)

having an incredible sabbath run rn. just finished headless cross, the best album ever. in the pick the 4th best sabbath record thread, i named it the 4th best, and this listen through the catalog has clarified my complete top four:

1 sabotage
2 master of reality
3 mob rules
4 headless cross

no. 5 is born again :)

i discovered that I love Dehumanizer! I dunno if it makes top 5 but still, definitely upper tier Sabbath for me, above Headless Cross etc

i forgot how much i loved tyr!!!! absolutely triumphant

I love the demo version of planet caravan

The sky was clear that night
We were alone and so much in love
A tree stood at the bottom
Of that lonely field and it was lovely
The moon like a big red bun
Stood in the sky and I wondered why

We sat upon the grass
It was so cold, but the heat of my mind
Was enough to keep us warm
And you caressed my body
Oh that was lovely, I'll never forget that night
Oh, my darling, my darling

This is why nobody let Ozzy write lyrics

I think they’re considerably better than geezer’s interstellar bullshit

LMAO whut

“The sky was clear that night
We were alone and so much in love”
I had this experience a few weeks ago is why it resonates

i’m with calstars

MOON LIKE A BIG RED BUN

Cross Purposes is the first album in my exploratory Sabbath dive that didn't instantly make me think "great stuff!" It reminds me of J-Tull Dot Com, which I do like, so I can imagine myself warming to Cross Purposes too, but my first impression is: too damn grungy! Props to Tony Martin for figuring out how to record his own Alice in Chains harmonies, but I'm frustrated by the way the band was recorded, or else mixed. On Forbidden I can hear plenty of the Iommi spirit despite the trendy production, whereas with Cross Purposes I needed to remind myself several times that I wasn't listening to an obscure Pearl Jam record.

tl/dr

keep it to yourself

i listened to that album also and it did NOT sound like pearl jam

That's good, to be honest I've never listened to much Pearl Jam and was using it as a placeholder for cookie-cutter grunge! First impressions are usually shallow anyway.

It would be nice if there would be some live stuff come out. They supposedly have a few vintage shows multitracks exist.

Watching the Stones Hampton show last night I thought again how they have so much live material available and of quality compared to some of their contemporaries. Business school I guess.

The Rolling Stones Mobile Studio is a mobile recording studio inside a DAF F1600 Turbo truck, once owned by the English rock band The Rolling Stones.

Cross Purposes sounding better on second listen, no surprise. Nice panoramic drama on Dying for Love

And a righteous guitar solo on Evil Eye, followed by a Geezer spotlight (just fuzz bass over the drumbeat), then the entrance of keys in the middle distance, and finally Tony Martin easing in the vocals, before the band kicks everything back up to the treetops as the Iommi riff returns. Fuck yes

Updated definition of "epic" : trudging through a South China rainstorm as night falls. The Eternal Idol in my earphones

reading Ozzy’s memoir & i loved this bit

… We became pretty tight, me and Geezer. I'll always remember when we were walking around the Bull Ring in the spring or carly summer of 1968, and all of a sudden this bloke with long, frizzy blond hair and the tightest trousers you've ever seen pops out of nowhere and slaps Geezer on the back.
'Geezer fucking Butler!'
Geezer turned around and said, 'Rob! How are you, man?'
'Oh, y'know … could be worse?'
'Rob, this is Ozzy Zig, said Geezer. 'Ozzy, this is Robert Plant - he used to sing with the Band of Joy?’
"Oh yeah" I said, recognising the face. 'I went to one of your shows. Fucking awesome voice, man.”
“Thanks”, said Plant, flashing me this big, charming smile.
'So, what you been up to?' asked Geezer.
'Well, since you mention it, I've been offered a job.'
'Nice. What's the gig?'
'The Yardbirds.'
' Whoah! Congratulations, man. That's huge. But didn't they split up?'
*Yeah, but Jimmy - y'know the guitarist, Jimmy Page - he's still around. So is the bass player. And they've got contractual obligations in Scandinavia, so they want to put something together.”
'That's great, said Geezer.
“Well, I'm not sure I'm gonna to be taking the gig, to be honest”, said Plant, shrugging. “I've got some pretty good stuff going on here, y'know? Matter of fact, I've just put a new band together.'
'Oh, er... cool, said Geezer. 'What's the name?'
'Hobbstweedle, said Plant.

Later, when Plant was gone, I asked Geezer if the bloke was out of his fucking mind. Is he seriously going to pass up a gig with Jimmy Page for that Hobbsbollocks thing?' I asked.
Geezer shrugged. I think he's just worried it won't work out, he said. 'But he'll do it, as long as they change the name.
They can't go around calling themselves the "New Yardbirds" for long.”
"It's better than fucking Hobbstweedle.”
“Good point.”

Ozzy continues to reference “Hobbsbollocks” every time he mentions Plant, it’s very funny how Ozz never let that go.

Bob Plant: master of reality

HOBBSTWEEDLE I am dying

Contrary to popular myth, the band name was never titled Hobbstweedle or connected with J. R. R. Tolkien literature, despite Plant's interest in that author's work. The name Obs-Tweedle originated from Bill Bonham's father and band manager, William Bonham, Sr., who allegedly selected the words from a dictionary when they couldn't agree on any names. Obs is an abbreviation for 'obscure', and Tweedle means 'sound'; which may have reflected the band's offbeat repertoire at the time.

ok so obbsbollocks then

Bill Bonham? Is that John’s dad?

Hobbstweedle. Dang.

close enough Josh ;)

Wasn't intended a correction, I'd never heard of any of this, so when I googled it I learned about the storied history of Hobbstweedle/Obs-Tweedle, lol. I guess Bill Bonham was John's cousin?

The band were formerly known as the Answer, a group which had toured Europe, and renamed themselves after ex-Band of Joy singer Robert Plant joined their line-up. Plant and his future wife Maureen Wilson were in the audience at one gig at Dudley Zoo to see the Answer perform, when Plant was invited to join the band after their singer Tommy Burton experienced a bout of food poisoning. Both Bill Bonham and Plant lived in upstairs rooms at the Three Men in a Boat public house in Bloxwich, a venue which the band also used for rehearsals. Their first ever performance was held there on Wednesday 13 March 1968. The Three Men in a Boat pub was owned by Bill Bonham's father, and would also be the future destination in which manager Peter Grant would send the telegram to confirm Plant was in Led Zeppelin, and later dozens of telegrams to get local John Bonham to sign-up with the band.

No relation apparently, despite the same last name: http://www.brumbeat.net/obstweed.htm#google_vignette

we are learning a lot on this day

I just want to post the word "Hobbstweedle"

the hottest nightclub in NY is Hobbstweedle. its got everything. ..

Hobbstweedle. From Bloxwich into the bargain.

How much more English could this be? The answer is none, none more English.

lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRJbm0SUHXM

That is fantastic, what a voice. Glad it didn't happen but what could have been.

Cool . Never knew about that. Was worried it was gonna just be some AI slop.

Geezer's bassline reminding me of a Marvin Gaye song.