Silicon Valley Techno-Utopianism

In Queens last year I used to see a family of 4 taking two kids on two scooters on the sidewalk to school. It was kind of annoying but cute.

I guess my point is that most places (with a couple of exceptions where pedestrians are the majority) in the US would be enormously improved by scooter use. There are some social conventions to work out and they need curbside parking (currently given to cars). And the rental companies oy vey.

But it would be an improvement! And there’s cars! So the anti scooter stuff preposterous to me that I feel like it must actually be some anti gentrification anti tech bro stuff. Which, fair. But come on! Cars!

What problems have the scooters caused in Denmark Fred? (Srs question)

I mean, all these 'in theory' good advances for society are all being executed without a care to responsible implementation.

They are taking space from bikes, not cars. Plus people leave them everywhere. I don't get why not just support bikes?

I can imagine that due to various disabilities there are people who can operate scooters, but not bikes. (Arthritis, injuries, etc.)

caek, you're not wrong given certain assumptions, but given infrastructure as it exists now and given how many cyclists are killed and injured by motorists every year (without punishment), I can see things going very badly with a large expansion in scooter use unless car traffic is curbed significantly.

the scooter users here are required to use the street not the sidewalk, but hardly anyone complies, partly because when they get in the street (and don't bother looking for quieter side streets like the less confident bikers often do) they're surprised and scared at how dangerous it is (exacerbated by their freewheeling unprotected style), and because as non-bikers they think it's perfectly fine to scoot on the sidewalk. there aren't going to be car-on-scooter fatalities, there are going to be scooter-on-pedestrian injuries.

It's the whole "let's be legends" mentality. All of these tech-bro companies expanded too fast, disregarded communities, moneypitted funds or didn't even care about a baseline of ethics or user protections. They probably thought someone else would figure it out after they got their payday for their genius.

well they were right

Most vc money goes to white men and their vision. Applaud that hard work.

Nobody is going to figure it out, it's going to go away after it has harmed an enormous amount of people.

that's called figuring it out. meanwhile you have deposited yr check and moved on to as yet undisrupted pastures

for about an hour I seriously considered a side hustle in being a scooter bounty hunter ...

One drawback of the scooter craze is that someone in our building has decided to set up a charging station in our hallway. I guess they make a commission for each scooter they charge?

They do, there's an entire economy based around it.

I wonder if being able to just step off a scooter might make them safer.

I don't think the backlash is against scooters per se, but the fact the vast majority of them in many areas are the rental ones that don't have a dedicated dock and and just left wherever

I was reading about some scooter group in the NYC area that organizes mass rides similar to the bike city rides and it seemed like a pretty cool enthusiast community

I could definitely see the lack of dedicated parking for scooters being a dealbreaker somewhere like Manhattan where sidewalks are already extremely congested.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/05/charging-electric-scooters-is-a-cutthroat-business/560747/

fwiw i think it's possible to separate the tech bro startup stuff (that belongs on this thread) from the "how do we plan to make US cities not be such unbelievably unpleasant places to move around (even in a car!)" stuff. i feel like many of you are struggling to do that.

whether they are good for a city is very city dependent. in general, the more pedestrians, the more problems they can cause (this goes for cars and bikes, too!). but almost nowhere in the US reaches the level where this is true. it's mind-boggling how few people are on the sidewalk in the "downtown core" for most US cities. the reason for this is cars! so, to the extent scooter use reduces car use, they are good!

I don't have a problem with the scooters ... in my neighborhood the users tend to be techbros, but in many other parts of my city, it's black kids and teens riding them, and it's kinda cute when they crew up and ride through the more gentrified parts of town.

I believe we have a dormant city transportation/urbanization thread that iatee made a lot of good points on

this is the SV thread, and scooter rentals without real storage space is an issue that I feel is distinct but also entwined with the lackadaisical ditching of this e-waste on our sidewalks

yeah i was carping about the vc economy generally and have no data on scooters, tho i do think i saw a rack of them the other day on banyan drive (where the hotels are), which i guess is preferable from everyone's perspective to making all the tourists rent cars if they want to do anything on their vacation besides go to "shooter's"

(they should have to scoot across the pacific first tho)

this is the SV thread, and scooter rentals without real storage space is an issue that I feel is distinct but also entwined with the lackadaisical ditching of this e-waste on our sidewalks

fair. the regulation of tech is obviously where this (in hindsight pretty blithe!) comment breaks down:

fwiw i think it's possible to separate the tech bro startup stuff (that belongs on this thread) from the "how do we plan to make US cities not be such unbelievably unpleasant places to move around (even in a car!)" stuff. i feel like many of you are struggling to do that.

i literally just read super pumped. it's absurd that i could write that.

(everyone read super pumped btw)

(and where is the transit/urban thread?

I was misremembering this thread, although it did get into the topic:
People Who Live In Suburbs: Classy, Icky, or Dudes?

this is not as exciting a document as this tweet suggests but it's interesting

This shareholder letter from Grubhub is one of the most brutally honest management communications I've ever seen.

Can read it as having two audiences: GRUB's shareholders, and the investors in and potential investors in Doordash, Postmates, and UberEats.https://t.co/JhuccS1mLI

— modest proposal (@modestproposal1) October 28, 2019

While this is certainly useful information for GRUB shareholders, there is 100% an entirely separate audience for this pic.twitter.com/iSLkJoMHfB

— modest proposal (@modestproposal1) October 28, 2019

Grubhub, which I had never heard of until now, is an absolutely shitty name:
https://static2.stuff.co.nz/1407274073/389/10353389.jpg

That's a pretty perfect explanation of why Instacart never made any sense to me whatsoever.

that... seems pretty honest? it takes time to drive to a bunch of places and take food and you have to actually pay people. refreshing!

public investors hate profitable, sustainable businesses

they just aren't disruptive enough

I also remember reading that Grubhub does some fucked up shit with local businesses -- I think they set up fake websites and phone numbers for them and then take a cut of orders that come through those websites/numbers. Seems like straight up mafia shit.

Yelp was working with them to list restaurant phone numbers that went through Grubhub

my general rule is that if a business has their own delivery I go straight to them. same for carryout. some local ones are using grubhub as their ordering system, so I go for that. if it's random-ass delivery and I'm ordering through a site, I might use grubhub if I have a coupon

grubhub is very much innocent smoothies aesthetic

I feel bad about making people deliver my food. Even though I realize it's a job. 95% of the time we go and pick it up. I have angst about taking car services too. Most of these nu services are not for me.

I feel bad about making people deliver my food. Even though I realize it's a job. 95% of the time we go and pick it up. I have angst about taking car services too. Most of these nu services are not for me.

same here! I did go through a phase where I got a lot of food delivery -- when grubhub et al was still relatively novel -- then I was going through my expenses for the year and realized how expensive it ended up being, and calculated that I could get hot table buffet from the overpriced supermarket down the street for less than all this food delivery. I don't think I've gotten food delivery since.

My neighbors, otoh, get a lot of delivery -- one recently got McDonalds delivered. ...

Yeah, I try to help some friends about saving money and don't want to go the "stop buying avocado toast" route but if one hasn't gotten takeout or taken car services for like 15 years, it does make a big enough difference. I get regularly scolded by one set of friends for never taking cars, like car services are any safer than just taking the subway and walking late at night.

I get a lot of food delivered. Of a half dozen or so places I regularly order from, only three or four are within walking distance. It really boggles my mind that fast food places now offer delivery (through DoorDash, I think). I find that morally objectionable. If you're gonna eat that shit you should have to shame yourself by walking in the door and getting it.

My feeling on car services is, I know the business model is unsustainable, but I'm gonna use it while it's subsidized (i.e. while the investors are still willing to throw money down a hole) when necessary, which so far has only been a couple of times a year. For example, dropping my own car off at the dealership to be repaired and using Uber to get home, or using it to get home late at night when my train got cancelled. When I use Uber, I tip the driver directly, in cash.

If you're gonna eat that shit you should have to shame yourself by walking in the door and getting it.

I have no shame in getting Popeye's or Jack in the Box or Taco Bell as far as the culinary properties of said food goes ... but when I get food from places like this, it is because they are conveniently located, have late night hours, and they have drive thrus!

Not saying there isn't a need for car services. I do end up having to use them but rarely, like going to the airport ( I mostly use a local service because it ends up being cheaper than uber/lyft). I've used the car pooling uber a couple of times when mass transit is down and I have to go somewhere. Sometimes local taxis hailed on the street are just cheaper in certain cities.

and for the record, the McD's ordering neighbors have a car.

I have the same effort/expenditure qualms and I think it's partially a work ethic/self-reliance thing? Like I find it hard to do things like hire a house cleaner, and outside of pizza delivery which I use very infrequently, I've ordered food to my house maybe once. I also regularly walk longer distances or will map out a route using public transportation when available when Uber or w/e is probably a simpler option. Uber's pretty much only my go-to when I've been drinking, although I did take it back from the airport a couple times because I just didn't feel like talking to friends/family who would have given me a ride. Just too much to deal with after hours of travel!

I have a friend who is locked into pure workaholic mode for the time being, comes home completely tired, and only has the energy to use grubhub and walk her dogs before falling asleep. I don't begrudge her the luxury of delivery when she's got so much going on.

oh, i just realized Seamless and Grubhub are the same thing. I was wondering why I had never used Grubhub.

They competed in nyc w seamless being big here and not elsewhere. The grub hub bought seamless.

i ordered mcdonald’s at 1:30 am early friday because i was too drunk to cook anything

I order all kinds of food all the time it rules

I also eat McDonald’s about once a week

I caught my son receiving a delivery of a bagel and cream cheese when we had both bagels and cream cheese in our fridge. wtf on several levels