Silicon Valley Techno-Utopianism

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Thread for general discussion of, and feeble resistance to, our new overpaid 20-something savant overlords, starting with this lovely article:

http://thebaffler.com/blog/2014/05/mouthbreathing_machiavellis

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:27 (four years ago) Permalink

is the baffler as smug and unreadable as it was in the late 90s/early 00s? to be frank all i ever got from them (or thomas frank solo) was a withering contempt for most of america, rather than any mournful concern.

display name changed. (amateurist), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:41 (four years ago) Permalink

haha to be frank see what I (unintentionally) did there?

display name changed. (amateurist), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:41 (four years ago) Permalink

nerds with power

shudder

j., Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:42 (four years ago) Permalink

This is the first Baffler thing I've bothered with in a while. I thought it had its moments back in its earlier incarnation -- there was an essay on cities and the "creative class" that I still refer to mentally sometimes. I think the internet has kind of made the sort of bullshit-skewering it specialized in more widespread and diffuse.

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:46 (four years ago) Permalink

oh yeah, they had some good articles from time to time. there was one incredibly condescending and snide and yet fascinating one about gay pornography. unfortinately they also published ray carney's screed against tarantino and a lot of other worthless crap. and i always felt tom frank needed to have a few beer bottles smashed over his head.

display name changed. (amateurist), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:48 (four years ago) Permalink

Frank seems kind of worse to me now in his Harper's editorials. I always hated Lapham's and it feels like Frank is really trying his best to assume the mantle.

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:53 (four years ago) Permalink

Anyway

In a widely covered secessionist speech at a Silicon Valley “startup school” last year, there was more than a hint of Moldbug (see video below). The speech, by former Stanford professor and Andreessen Horowitz partner Balaji Srinivasan, never mentioned Moldbug or the Dark Enlightenment, but it was suffused with neoreactionary rhetoric and ideas. Srinivasan used the phrase “the paper belt” to describe his enemies, namely the government, the publishing industries, and universities. The formulation mirrored Moldbug’s “Cathedral.” Srinivasan’s central theme was the notion of “exit”—as in, exit from democratic society, and entry into any number of corporate mini-states whose arrival will leave the world looking like a patchwork map of feudal Europe.

Forget universal rights; this is the true “opt-in society.”

An excerpt:

We want to show what a society run by Silicon Valley would look like. That’s where “exit” comes in . . . . It basically means: build an opt-in society, ultimately outside the US, run by technology. And this is actually where the Valley is going. This is where we’re going over the next ten years . . . [Google co-founder] Larry Page, for example, wants to set aside a part of the world for unregulated experimentation. That’s carefully phrased. He’s not saying, “take away the laws in the U.S.” If you like your country, you can keep it. Same with Marc Andreessen: “The world is going to see an explosion of countries in the years ahead—doubled, tripled, quadrupled countries.”

Srinivasan ticked through the signposts of the neoreactionary fantasyland: Bitcoin as the future of finance, corporate city-states as the future of government, Detroit as a loaded symbol of government failure and 3D-printed firearms as an example of emerging technology that defies regulation.

The speech succeeded in promoting the anti-democratic authoritarianism at the core of neoreactionary thought, while glossing over the attendant bigotry. This has long been a goal of some in the movement. One such moderate—if the word can be used in this context—is Patri Friedman, grandson of the late libertarian demigod Milton Friedman. The younger Friedman expressed the need for “a more politically correct dark enlightenment” after a public falling out with Yarvin in 2009.

Friedman has lately been devoting his time (and leveraging his family name) to raise money for the SeaSteading Institute, which, as the name suggests, is a blue-sea libertarian dream to build floating fiefdoms free of outside regulation and law. Sound familiar?

The principal backer of the SeaSteading project, Peter Thiel, is also an investor in companies run by Balaji Srinivasan and Curtis Yarvin. Thiel is a co-founder of PayPal, an original investor in Facebook and hedge fund manager, as well as being the inspiration for a villainous investor on the satirical HBO series Silicon Valley. Thiel’s extreme libertarian advocacy is long and storied, beginning with his days founding the Collegiate Network-backed Stanford Review. Lately he’s been noticed writing big checks for Ted Cruz.

He’s invested in Yarvin’s current startup, Tlon. Thiel invested personally in Tlon co-founder John Burnham. In 2011, at age 18, Burnham accepted $100,000 from Thiel to skip college and go directly into business. Instead of mining asteroids as he originally intended, Burnham wound up working on obscure networking software with Yarvin, whose title at Tlon is, appropriately enough, “benevolent dictator for life.”

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:57 (four years ago) Permalink

I love this stuff, these guys are like comic book supervillains.

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 05:58 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah i dunno, this seems discountable. it's not going to get much traction.

display name changed. (amateurist), Thursday, 22 May 2014 06:33 (four years ago) Permalink

i still think we shd take these guys out before they acquire sentience

coign of wantage (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 22 May 2014 06:35 (four years ago) Permalink

another school of thought says that they just need to experience a moment of humanity to temper their wild anti-humanist delusions

we could administer this cure from a safe distance thanks to their work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PspagsTFvlg

j., Thursday, 22 May 2014 06:41 (four years ago) Permalink

Been dismayed with The Baffler since it's new revival. Seems about as shrill as Adbusters these days.

Elvis Telecom, Thursday, 22 May 2014 06:44 (four years ago) Permalink

OTOH, there's these guys to make fun of: http://nymag.com/news/features/laundry-apps-2014-5/#

Elvis Telecom, Thursday, 22 May 2014 06:46 (four years ago) Permalink

i still think we shd take these guys out before they acquire sentience

― coign of wantage (Noodle Vague), Thursday, May 22, 2014 6:35 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

100%

purposely lend impetus to my HOOS (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:10 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah i dunno, this seems discountable. it's not going to get much traction.

― display name changed. (amateurist), Thursday, May 22, 2014 6:33 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i'd be more willing to discount it if these weren't people with money, political fever dreams, and the ability to build & destory things

purposely lend impetus to my HOOS (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:11 (four years ago) Permalink

Yeah I'm not exactly alarmed yet but I am a little o_O

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:12 (four years ago) Permalink

these people aren't good at building things that people actually need to survive so I dunno - the rhetoric is horrible and these people are frightening, at the same time they're woefully inept

Οὖτις, Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:14 (four years ago) Permalink

fantastic article, thank you for sharing

famous instagram God (waterface), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:15 (four years ago) Permalink

A seafaring community of 10 plutocrats is probably going to do just fine. They can just take a private jet back to the US any time they need fresh virgins to feed on. They don't want the rest of us anyway.

popchips: the next snapple? (seandalai), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:18 (four years ago) Permalink

Shouldn't that be Tlön, and holy shit we do not need techno-libertarians referencing Borges

a strange man (mh), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:20 (four years ago) Permalink

I thought the setting up a new country idea sounded really good, hopefully it would end like jonestown

badg, Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:21 (four years ago) Permalink

I am all in favor of techno-libertarian island

a strange man (mh), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:22 (four years ago) Permalink

me too. preferably one that will be underwater in a few decades.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:25 (four years ago) Permalink

tru

purposely lend impetus to my HOOS (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:25 (four years ago) Permalink

im less worried about these creeps building their own bioshock dystopias than i am about them using their tremendous money and influence to undermine regulation and other democratic things (tm) at home

socki (s1ocki), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:28 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah that is a more serious danger

Οὖτις, Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:28 (four years ago) Permalink

I wonder if we can convince them to relocate to Canada

a strange man (mh), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:28 (four years ago) Permalink

I think their politics might go over well in, like, Edmonton

a strange man (mh), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:29 (four years ago) Permalink

It should be fun to watch what happens when the VC money starts to dry up.

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:43 (four years ago) Permalink

they all scramble for the surviving corporate monoliths

Οὖτις, Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:44 (four years ago) Permalink

This Baffler article mentions Nick Land. That's kind of depressing, is he fully in that camp? I've only read some of his stuff but have liked work from his contemporaries.

a strange man (mh), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:46 (four years ago) Permalink

isn't his own camp bad enough???

j., Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:54 (four years ago) Permalink

maybe! I'm out of the loop

a strange man (mh), Thursday, 22 May 2014 15:56 (four years ago) Permalink

yes, nick land is fully in

goole, Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:19 (four years ago) Permalink

this is all a lil weird to me cos reading these dudes has been a minor internet fascination of mine for a long time

if anything, land's story is evidence against the thesis that an encounter with adulthood will chill these guys out: he was a philosophy professor in the 80s (?) and 90s, left for china at some point to be a journalist, was a pro-war neocon type in the early 00s and at some point during/after the 08 crash flipped to austrian economics, "race realism" (if you don't mind me using their euphemisms for a sec) and all the rest.

i feel super weird that even know this shit tbh

goole, Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:22 (four years ago) Permalink

the connection with silicon valley utopian-supremacy is only one leg of the thing, there are linkages to a lot of weird old righty type scenes that have been left behind by contemporary conservatism, which have been kept alive in its most public face by association with ron paul. but also the remnants of european throne-and-altar type stuff

goole, Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:25 (four years ago) Permalink

this isn't what I think of when I think of 'techno-utopianism' these dudes are just idiots

dude (Lamp), Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:26 (four years ago) Permalink

really the most salient through-line is hostility to democracy.

xp yeah this thread title is a little narrow & off from the corey pein article

goole, Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:28 (four years ago) Permalink

feel like the broader 'apps with solve it'/obsessed with meritocracy and measurement/transnational professionalism stuff that permeates the valley and its politics is way more pernicious and worth countering than these dudes who cant help but marginalize themselves by being themselves

dude (Lamp), Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:28 (four years ago) Permalink

I feel like these guys make better bad guys than the republican party, at least their politics are internally consistent

iatee, Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:30 (four years ago) Permalink

idk i think their predilection for lingo and willingness to set up their own discursive zones is an important idea generator.

there's huge overlap with the PUA/men's rights scene, and *their* language and pop-psych antifeminism is reeeally short work way from being conservative canon

goole, Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:32 (four years ago) Permalink

Definitely seems like there is at the root of a lot of it a bitterness stemming from a dissonance between the "meritocracy" these people have been sold on (in which their particular skillset is supposed to make them the fittest dudes) and the reality they grew up in, and the *other* reality they grew up in (having to attend high school and go on the dating scene and such) in which their supposed superior qualities didn't seem to help so much. I know this might sound like just a rehash of the "butthurt nerd" canard, but I think there's something about the combination of ego inflation AND deflation that they experience -- one world telling them they are geniuses and another telling them they are losers at the same time, that makes them want to remake the entire world in the image of the former.

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:49 (four years ago) Permalink

Like you don't get this kind of worldview coming out of getting sand kicked in your face alone, it's more the rage that results from feeling entitled to alpha status and then getting sand kicked in your face.

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:51 (four years ago) Permalink

yup

Οὖτις, Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:54 (four years ago) Permalink

And to cross reference that with the "men's rights" stuff, it's not unlike "I'm a *nice* and *intelligent* guy and yet hot babes are not throwing themselves at my feet like they are supposed to. Therefore women are defective and dangerous and I must use 'techniques' to disarm and conquer them."

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 22 May 2014 16:58 (four years ago) Permalink

is there an app for that

Οὖτις, Thursday, 22 May 2014 17:07 (four years ago) Permalink

i'm really skeptical of 'just a thwarted nerd' type explanations. some people just end up believing this kind of shit for reasons that aren't readily explicable. in many cases it doesn't appear to be true.

goole, Thursday, 22 May 2014 17:24 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah 'chicks just didn't want him and he's not successful' doesn't explain peter thiel very well

iatee, Thursday, 22 May 2014 17:32 (four years ago) Permalink

will plain ole megalomania do.

ryan, Thursday, 22 May 2014 17:37 (four years ago) Permalink

crucial difference there is that kitchen scales actually do what they're supposed to

kiss me dadly (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 11 March 2019 12:26 (two months ago) Permalink

Sure, but that never matters to the pitch, right?

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 11 March 2019 13:05 (two months ago) Permalink

As a hypochondriac I do like the idea of running a Star Trek style tricorder over myself at regular intervals instead of worrying about mystery bodily symptoms and then not daring to go to the doctor because it usually sounds silly (plus I am fat so the answer to all mystery symptoms is "you should lose weight, eat better, exercise more" which tbf is certainly true anyway)

however, jabbing myself with anything ever or having anything to do with Theranos-level messianic quacks, not so much

(NB why yes, I would still worry in a different unhealthy way if I had this magical device, but hey, it would bleep and have flashy lights and offer the brief illusion of control)

a passing spacecadet, Monday, 11 March 2019 13:35 (two months ago) Permalink

lmao otm

Men hate vocal fry so much that they gave Elizabeth Holmes 400 million dollars

— Emma (@Merman_Melville) March 19, 2019

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 19 March 2019 19:53 (two months ago) Permalink

lol

moose; squirrel (silby), Tuesday, 19 March 2019 19:58 (two months ago) Permalink

see also

elizabeth holmes on a rollercoaster carefully screaming in a baritone

— Sarah Lazarus (@sarahclazarus) March 19, 2019

Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 20 March 2019 02:09 (one month ago) Permalink

i_remember_nothing.mp3

⅋ (crüt), Wednesday, 20 March 2019 02:47 (one month ago) Permalink

do I have to resubscribe to HBO to see this? dark internet is striking out

akm, Wednesday, 20 March 2019 03:01 (one month ago) Permalink

i just bought a ticket from burbank to oakland on https://www.jetsuitex.com/. afaict it's uberx for private jets. you pull up to a private hangar at a regular airport. my ticket was $20 more than the flight at the same time on southwest. VC-subsidized transit. boy, i don't know.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 22 March 2019 21:25 (one month ago) Permalink

Wagering that you will spend more money on VC-subsidized ground transport than on your air transport for this trip.

Also wagering that you will spend more time on the ground getting from Oakland to your destination than you will from BUR-OAK.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Friday, 22 March 2019 21:30 (one month ago) Permalink

gonna get a car to the bart station and it's a back street hangar so hoping for no traffic but yeah, it's not really great if you aren't the kind of person who likes driving to airports.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 22 March 2019 21:36 (one month ago) Permalink

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/03/20/business/00strut1/merlin_151953237_6cd2da47-4b11-4d9f-8d48-b8e7b4a54e0b-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp
Rick Heitzmann, a partner at FirstMark Capital, which has invested in Pinterest and Airbnb, said it was time to “tell our story.”

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 24 March 2019 17:31 (one month ago) Permalink

absolute hero imo

Man stole https://boingboing.net/2019/03/24/evaldas-rimasauskas.html?fbclid=IwAR0zPBGWxFPt3EWa9chp9eQdVhsjJJ8KNpshFUe2n2qPwj9EOeRa3m_hwDQ22m from Facebook and Google by sending them random bills, which the companies dutifully paid

i'm w/ tato, super hot AND weird!! (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 24 March 2019 21:52 (one month ago) Permalink

as much a hero as anybody who commits corporate fraud, i guess

the scientology of mountains (rushomancy), Sunday, 24 March 2019 22:05 (one month ago) Permalink

that's fucking balllllller

shoulda zagged (esby), Sunday, 24 March 2019 22:06 (one month ago) Permalink

ok finally found the theranos doc. was good but well over long and a bit unsatisfying since the story itself isn't over.

akm, Sunday, 24 March 2019 23:21 (one month ago) Permalink

it had enough content not in the book to be interesting on its own

the emotional reaction of the fortune magazine (lol) reporter pausing and eventually choking out the word “horseshit” was great

mh, Sunday, 24 March 2019 23:35 (one month ago) Permalink

holy shit at that boingboing link. ?!????

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 25 March 2019 00:14 (one month ago) Permalink

Dude I would settle for defrauding Facebook for like 100 grand

moose; squirrel (silby), Monday, 25 March 2019 00:16 (one month ago) Permalink

fake invoices. that's all. that is GOOD MONEY. ffs. that's like... think of the number of people that money has touched, the lives wrapped up in it. you know tons of it is still squirrelled away. either transformed into other enterprises, or property registered through interlocking shell companies, not to mention all the more personally grubby behaviour it's probably enabled

illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Monday, 25 March 2019 00:21 (one month ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

Don't know why I went into the comments on that article but I did and even though I generally expect the worst I never expected this kind of thing:

Or maybe women aren't the ideological monolith that you seem to think they are? My wife is going into STEM (she's majoring in web design) but she's opposed to women's suffrage (meanwhile I'm not).

silverfish, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 15:04 (three weeks ago) Permalink

I'm going to charitably assume that this person doesn't know what "women's suffrage" means.

jmm, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 15:08 (three weeks ago) Permalink

women's sufferation

Neil S, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 15:13 (three weeks ago) Permalink

found the followup post after much wtf-like reactions to that post:

Correct, I don't see why that's so baffling though? Back when suffrage was gained it's likely that the majority of women didn't even want it at the time: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/05/did ... -the-vote/

That's certainly changed since, but there are still plenty of women (my wife being one) who believe that women as a whole vote in ways detrimental to society.

silverfish, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 15:22 (three weeks ago) Permalink

I have no doubt that women can be better at misogyny than men

for whatever "better" means in this context

mh, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 15:58 (three weeks ago) Permalink

also, cool, web design gets to be STEM now

j., Tuesday, 23 April 2019 22:15 (three weeks ago) Permalink

imagine paying $200 million for a company that thinks cheddar is the cheese has holes in it pic.twitter.com/DUsIc60TQE

— bobby finger (@bobbyfinger) April 30, 2019

It was a strategic logo decision, bobby.

— Melissa Rosenthal (@MelisOnCheddar) April 30, 2019

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 30 April 2019 17:06 (two weeks ago) Permalink

Good point.

A piece of Cheddar would have been a flat, orange block.

— Melissa Rosenthal (@MelisOnCheddar) April 30, 2019

jmm, Tuesday, 30 April 2019 17:19 (two weeks ago) Permalink

not just any old logo decision, a STRATEGIC logo decision, checkmate haterz

Neil S, Tuesday, 30 April 2019 20:03 (two weeks ago) Permalink

maybe the holes are mouse nibbles

(B) Read Message :: "Try Posting" (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 30 April 2019 20:08 (two weeks ago) Permalink

or perhaps you are rich and at one of those restaurants where a clever chef tries to trick you into thinking you are eating a different type of cheese. maybe they also place the hole filled cheddar cheese onto a bag of air that blows pepper jack smell on your face.

(B) Read Message :: "Try Posting" (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 30 April 2019 20:13 (two weeks ago) Permalink

the holes are where the money goes

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 30 April 2019 20:13 (two weeks ago) Permalink

only if u want a UTI

remy bean, Tuesday, 30 April 2019 20:48 (two weeks ago) Permalink

Fetch me my brown shirt! pic.twitter.com/LjovKlwU0G

— Pinboard (@Pinboard) May 7, 2019

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 May 2019 16:46 (one week ago) Permalink

to be fair it would be a brown hoodie

maura, Wednesday, 8 May 2019 00:09 (one week ago) Permalink

Read this ending and died dead. https://t.co/WjTMbBtRm9 pic.twitter.com/6VoNFjgOY4

— Mark Bergen (@mhbergen) May 15, 2019

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Wednesday, 15 May 2019 14:56 (four days ago) Permalink

holy shit that whole piece

maura, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 15:22 (four days ago) Permalink

I still don't completely get the entire coworking space model and I'm not sure my confusion is wrong

mh, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 15:29 (four days ago) Permalink

i think it's like working in a coffeeshop except there's no coffee and there are more successories posters around??

j., Wednesday, 15 May 2019 15:52 (four days ago) Permalink

at an absolute base level coworking spaces are decent for people who do remote work in an area away from a company's main office or have their own business and need somewhere to occasionally work around other people, socialize, and use office facilities like a conference room

working in one 100% of the time makes less sense, because traditional offices generally have seating you're meant to be in more hours of the day, and if you're lucky you get more than a couple square feet of space. coworking is like... a long table and a less-ergonomic chair and you sacrifice personal space for notional amenities

mh, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 15:59 (four days ago) Permalink

I work in an indie coworking place now and I have had a month in a WeWork. For remote people they are good as an idea. The vibe in WeWorks is weird and not pleasant. And in a corporate finance sense WeWork is a real estate Ponzi scheme grift on SoftBank as far as I can tell.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Wednesday, 15 May 2019 16:09 (four days ago) Permalink

'my superpower is change'

mookieproof, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 16:55 (four days ago) Permalink

love how the article goes on about all kinds of shit without ever explaining what WeWork actually does. good indicator what they actually do.. is beside the point

mh, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 18:00 (four days ago) Permalink

i thought that was a deliberate choice since the ceo is such a knob

maura, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 18:21 (four days ago) Permalink

i have been hunting for like 30 mins to find ilx's original YTMND thread, but maybe we never had one?

anyway, pour one out for an internet thing that was great and is now dead and impossible to imagine seeing its like again.

i did find what i think is its first mention here:

I pointed this out on another thread, but best site ever: www.yourethemannowdog.com< br>
My friend used to have his alert be a clip of Mike Patton asking "Safeway?", which he blurted out randomly in the middle of a Mario Bros. cover.
― Vinnie, Saturday, May 11, 2002 7:00 PM (seventeen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

HOLY SHIT. I've never seen such brilliance. Oh my god, that's almost as good as Peanut Butter Jelly Time.
― Ally, Saturday, May 11, 2002 7:00 PM (seventeen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

goole, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 18:40 (four days ago) Permalink

guess what's STILL around

http://superbad.com

Lil' Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 15 May 2019 21:17 (four days ago) Permalink


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