Animation Snob Thread (no Disney, no Pixar, no mainstream anime, mention Family Guy and you get kicked out a window), puppet films are allowed

I think animation is a severely, depressingly neglected medium. It has incredible expressive potential and somehow the best animation seems to happen in crappy socialist or communist regimes, while America and Japan churn out loads of crap. I think the main problem with mainstream animation is how as a result of getting visual consistency and working on tight deadlines, everything looks quite bland most of the time. I'm not totally against this method, it makes sense for humour cartoons, but I think when you talk about GREAT animation, you should mostly be talking about amazingly animated animation.
I think in an ideal world, most horror films would be animated.

I'm not that big a snob, I think Disney's Pinocchio is brilliant; Sword In The Stone, Sleeping Beauty and quite a few others are good, in fact I'd say most had some things going for them.
I think Pixar films are generally quite good. I like Ratatouille a lot. But I still find 3d animated kids/family films frustrating because however nuanced and subtle they try to make the body language, it still seems too exaggerated, robotic and uniform. Everyone moves/acts the same in these films and they can only really overcome this with all the other elements, but usually humour.

I say no mainstream anime but Miyazaki and Satoshi Kon get a pass.

Youtube and Dailymotion have lots of incredible stuff but I'm not sure I want loads of videos embedded because a page full of videos is a nightmare for a lot of peoples poor internet connections. So I might just name the videos or slightly distort the site address so you can change hxxp to http.

Search: Brothers Quay, Svankmajer, Gyorgy Kovasznai, Keita Kurosaka, Nikolai Serebryakov, Ideya Garanina, Nina Shorina, Allison Schulnik. Frank Zappa's "City Of Tiny Lights" video.

watched don hertzfeldt's "it's such a beautiful day" yesterday, kinda like "synechdoche new york" but done w/ stick figures and brakhage-ish camera effects — really wonderful

Well, also search Yuri Norstein, obviously. Tale of Tales and Hedgehog in the Fog are required viewing.

Saw Ari Folman's latest, The Congress, at PIX. Pure crap. So happy with itself it actually has a character describe it's own style as 'a genius designer on bad acid'. Avoid like the plague.

I was going to mention Norstein but I forgot his name. I forgot Roland Topor stuff like Fantastic Planet too.

I was kind of interested in The Congress but I heed your warning. But I cant promise I'll avoid.

Even though it isn't firmly in snob-land, the recobbled cut of Thief And The Cobbler on the directors youtube is good. The ending with the thief bouncing around the tank at the end is fucking incredible.

Nina Shorina's "Room Of Laughter" here. One of the best films I saw last year. A prime example of what animation can do for horror. If you have ten minutes to spare, change the hxxps to https...

hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZZY9K-WIc

i watched Millennium Actress for the first time recently. i thought it was really good

My ranking of Kon

Paprika
Perfect Blue
Millennium Actress
Paranoia Agent
Tokyo Godfathers

I found Paranoia Agent quite disappointing and a bit of a slog at times. I don't think the balance of detective intrigue with surreal nonsense worked that well.

anyone seen "oneamisu no tsubasa" aka "wings of honneamise" or "royal space force: the wings of honneamise"? the description in "the anime encyclopedia" makes it sound really interesting:

Shiro Lhadatt is a dropout, a wannabe pilot who wasn't good enough to get into the navy air corps. Instead, hejoins the only organization that will have him, a ragtag group of misfits called the Royal Space Force. Underfunded, undermotivated, and under extreme pressure, they race to get a man in space, but nobody believes it's possible. Nobody, that is, except for Shiro and his would-be girlfriend, a religious zeal­ ot called Lequinni. Space is waiting for humanity as a whole, but the project to reach it is the result oftwo nations' political and military agendas. Our hero joins up for all the wrong reasons but eventually realizes that he can turn the "fake dream" of his government's PR campaign into a real dream, and he becomes the first man in space. Despite the political skullduggery that follows, he refuses to let go of the hope that the realityjust might redeem all the failure and sacrifice of history and give us another chance to soar.

One of anime's greatest successes and greatest failures, WoH is a pecu­liarly Japanese take on the U.S.-Soviet space race-an outsider's view of the gung ho ideals of The Right Stuff, moved to an alien world to emphasize the viewer's own alienation. Made by the young, fiendishly talented Gainax collective, it was so expensive and so badly received in Japan that it didn't break even until 1994.

One of the shining examples of how cerebral and intelligent anime can be, it's far removed from the sex and violence that stuffs Western anime catalogues. It's a film that rewards repeat viewings if only for the meticulous design of every aspect of its world. The language, the names, the maps, and even the telegraph poles all scream to be rec­ ognized as triumphs of world-building almost unequalled elsewhere in sci­ ence-fiction film. Even the minutiae of everyday life are knocked ever-so­ slightly out of kilter, with little touches like triangular spoons, unidentifiable foods, and sunrise in the north.

as for kon, if anyone hasn't seen the short "magnetic rose" (orig. "kanojo no omide" or "her memories"), definitely do so — it was directed by otomo katsuhiro (akira dude) and written by both otomo and kon

Wings of Honneamise is a great film, and I agree with the review that the meticulous detail of the alternate Earth is what really invites you back for another watch. The story is a bit rambling but doesn't get boring, although the main character can grate at times. The VHS copy I got hold of cut out that scene, so I'm not sure how that would have affected by opinion of the film.

I love Kon, though I think he got progressively weaker with each film, with PB and MA being the clear high points of his output. Paranoia Agent has a lot of good stuff, but it's far from perfect overall - the three stand-alone episodes in the middle are brilliant, but they break the flow of the ongoing story, and the series never quite recovers.

Mind Game is one of my favorite movies, and the director, Masaaki Yuasa released a Kickstarter-funded short last year that I love: Kick Heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPe7E1YrY4

Is Akira a fit for this thread?

I really like the bit where one of the characters is using their weird psychic powers, and the way it's shown is a sort of invisible sphere radiates from them and crushes out the concrete wall around them - so perfectly drawn. And the city feels so thick and oppressive and realised.

And maybe 'The Thing' if we extend animation to include puppetry.

What I want to know is has anyone been making stop motion stuff since 2000?

Henry Selick

The Thing? I assume you aren't talking about Carpentar's film?

I think Akira and any other Otomo projects should be fine for this thread. Steamboy does kind of veer into the kid/family territory like Miyazaki (I'm just a bit wary of more conventional stuff flooding the artier stuff).
Ralph Bakshi might have to be squeezed in this thread too.

Fear(s) Of The Dark had some good stuff but I'm lukewarm about the film in general.

I saw Wings of Honneamise when I was something like 11 or 12 and it flew in the face of what I wanted at the time. Apart from the chase scene and the fight where he barfs on someone's face, it is a very very quiet film. In retrospect it seems a lot more interesting, I can still remember the low key mood of it.

Redline is a bit different, but I thought it was a mistake to have the film so story orientated. I think they should have cut the story and just kept more crazy race stuff. Now that I think about it, I was just like Wacky Races, but not quite enough.

Secret Adventures Of Tom Thumb seems like an obvious one for this thread too. It's quite depressing though.

BELLADONNA OF SADNESS
A Japanese classic that still hasn't had a proper western dvd release yet. It has very little in common with most anime, it has a sort of 70s psychedelic fashion illustration look with thin lines and watercolours. Kind of feminist fable of a once ordinary woman in medieval times who becomes empowered and oppressed at various points in the story but eventually becomes a martyr for womankind. Some really graphic stuff in there. There was quite a few bits I didn't understand the message but I'd recommend it a lot.

watched don hertzfeldt's "it's such a beautiful day" yesterday, kinda like "synechdoche new york" but done w/ stick figures and brakhage-ish camera effects — really wonderful

― clouds, Sunday, April 27, 2014 4:27 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this film rules

i think goku could totally beat akira

Anyone who cares about stop motion should wait for Hoffmaniada, which is an attempt to return to the glory days of Russian animation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPe7E1YrY4

― james lipton and his francs (darraghmac), Sunday, April 27, 2014 6:38 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ken Ashcorp
3 weeks ago

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watched patlabor 2 for the first time in quite a while and was really impressed. love how the sustained muted, kinda flat tone and the music's great too.

http://youtu.be/1dmlwhaEEgE

I can't even tell you how disappointed I was at the lack of action when I bought it sight unseen as a teenager!

millennium actress is v beautiful, I think. definitely my favorite kon.

My favourite non-mainstream animation is probably The Illusionist, by the guy who did Les Triplettes de Belleville, based on an unproduced Jacques Tati script and set in Edinburgh.

does oskar fischinger count here?

would like to point out that a second series of Mushishi is airing at the moment, 8 years after the first series and so far has been just as brilliant.

I had never heard of Oskar Fischinger. From a brief search it seems to fit in fine. Isn't Stan Brakhage really animation?

Just dropping in to say that Mind Game is also one of my all-timers and I'll be watching the short later for sure, ty Dan I

Didn't realise Mushishi was back, that's great news.

I generally preferred Oshii's earlier films (Beautiful Dreamer, Angel's Egg, Patlabor 2) to his post-GitS stuff. Jin-Roh: the Wolf Brigade (which he wrote, but didn't direct) was excellent, though.

Dreamer has an awesome moment when the characters board a harrier and see their city closed off on the back of a giant turtle; that's tied with the "Unnatural City" sequence as the best Oshii sequence

Robert, just in case i'm the only one who flag posted you after the first sentence, it was me who flag posted you after the first sentence. cheers.

I love Angel's Egg.

Noodle Vague- why flag post?

tbf it was halfway thru the title. tbh, i think your premise is reductive, silly and distasteful. i celebrate yr right to disagree. the fp button is just underneath this post.

The Secret of Kells

i couldn't give a flying fuck about the premise so long as i pick up some tasty leads itt

Yep, same here

the new series based on the "Ping Pong" manga is worth checking out (there was also a 2002 live action film)
artstyle is kinda ugly but really expressive, directed by Masaaki Yuasa (Mind Game, Kaiba, Tatami Galaxy)

http://i.imgur.com/Gp6t8JL.gif

the yuasa short upthread was cool, if not in the same league as mind game

i think we had an animation thread a while back, but i totally agree with the sentiment in the original post. animation's been hijacked for exclusively kid and family movies, when it has so much more potential.

remake jaws as an animated film, plz.

great animated films that aren't necessarily for kids

Noodle Vague- I'd prefer you disagreed with me in detail. I said I enjoyed many Disney films and Pixar films are generally good, so unless you work on Family guy(which just like many sitcoms, I still find a quarter of the jokes funny enough) or some associated cartoon, I don't know why you are offended. Surely not by my belief that animation has been neglected as a powerful expressive medium?

Maybe you are a 3d animator? I'm willing to be proved wrong about the possibilities of that style but from what I have seen so far, I think the strength of cgi is for rich colour and more abstract things, but I've always found character animation to be lacking. But I've been moved all the same by Pixar films.
I said I'm not completely against uniformity in animation because Simpson's, Futurama and South Park at their best work just fine.
I just think it's sad that the medium isn't really associated much with ambitious animation techniques.

I hesitated before creating the title because I don't find offending people constructive but since the word "snob" was jokingly in the title (who honestly calls themself a snob?), I thought it would be obvious that I wasn't being an elitist drawing a line in the sand by the end of the first post.

So what part of my premise was objectionable?

I mentioned it on the Adventure Time thread, but Masaaki Yuasa is directing an Adventure Time episode, too!

I just think it's sad that the medium isn't really associated much with ambitious animation techniques.

do you not think that this is tantamount to saying that writing isn't associated with ambitious techniques because the bulk of what's read isn't "ambitious"? by definition, within any medium, the less popular stuff is less popular.

i was just mildly snarking tbh but really, you can have an "i love this" thread without defining it in opposition to all that tawdry mainstream "that" that you don't dig. and it will probably make your appreciation all the stronger.

also you dismissed several nations' worth of animation in yr first two sentences which is like, gtfo

title wld've been fine with just the first three words, parenthetical and tbh 1st post just makes yr thread sound rockist son

but i guess you're guitarist from pink floyd right i guess i shouldn't expect more

and it is just silly to associate 'ambitious animation style' w/non-mnstrm stuff, have you seen One Piece that shit's ambitious as h*ck, and bigger studios have more freedom and currency to experiment on a big stage

and then 'letting in' miyazaki and akira cause you feel like it, come on. this is just taste, don't try to project all this other mnstrm/non-mnstrm stuff

but otherwise cool thread look forward to recs

Again, I think my elaboration shows that I don't at all mean to completely dismiss major animation houses, America or Japan. But I don't think it's totally crazy to say that a lot of their output is very poor and that there might be legitimate things in them to object to. A lot of Japanese animators are totally scathing about the general animated output of their country.

I'm guilty as charged that I made a sensational title to get attention and I probably shouldn't have because it is a rampant problem on the internet that I'm not proud to take part in but again, I thought there was enough in the first post to backpedal from the oppositional element.

The oppositional gut feelings come easy when you're bombarded by something that you think has significant or even major problems while so many great things are marginalized. Particularly when it comes to comics. I'm sure most people here have called things "total shit" that in a fairer, more constructive mood they would admit to having some good qualities. Ideally I'd like to criticize everything as if I were talking to the creators face to face in the most constructive, bluntly honest but encouraging way I could.
I'll often say I hate Friends, Big Bang Theory and Family Guy but a quarter of the jokes do make me laugh and some other things work occasionally.
I often get angered by superhero comics and movies but I have genuinely enjoyed them on occasion.

I like to try and be reasonable as possible but then I remember the time I tried to talk about wonderful animation and its potential, with people responding "no I don't like Family Guy, Pixar, Avatar or anime", RAAAAAAAAAGE!
I don't like snobbery and elitism because I think it is anti-intellectual in the way those things make people oversimplify, when the fact is that almost nothing can really be reasonably summed up as trash or shit. But if you really seriously care about culture, have starry eyed dreams about people believing in aspiring to greatness and raising standards, you'll know how easy it is to fall into dismissively oversimplifying things.

I assumed flagging posts was reserved for serious transgressions like horrendous racism, sexism, violent threats and legal boundaries being crossed. Not passionate disagreements about culture.

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh nvm

Zachlyon says "bigger studios have more freedom and currency to experiment on a big stage"

Examples? Fantasia is the only time I can think of a major studio being really experimental. But there is loads and loads of low budget avant garde animation. A lot of people decide to avoid or leave big animation studios because lack of freedom. The big companies have the resources but how could they compare in this way with Piotr Kamler and Gyorgy Kovasznai?

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

Forgot to mention Watership Down and Plague Dogs. They are quite special to me.

^^^these are incredible and their making is also p incredible, michael rosen was a true one-off. watership down also one of my favourite films ever

Good night, children/ Spokojnoj Noch, Malyshi! (1999) by Norstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxkkE6tdQc4
Extraordinary technique and the smiling rabbit is so cute.

Piotr Kamler's claymation masterpiece Chronopolis is sort of like a dreary Fantastic Planet, minus the plot.

saw this screened last night, v much worth a look

The Hungarian film Ruben Brandt, Collector is up on UK/Ireland Netflix now (not sure about other locations) and is definitely worth a look. I saw it at an animation festival not long ago and loved it, but was unsure about the ending... good reason for a second watch!

I didn't know Kamler did Claymation. The one I saw was 2d animation of a ball bouncing on stairs. Very surreal.

DID NOT know Laika was Vinton's studio and that they forcibly ousted him
https://tedium.co/2019/12/17/holiday-tv-alternatives/

whoa, that's messed up. had no idea, and i'm a big Laika fan!

yeah, same. it's a huge bummer.

Masaaki Yuasa has a new TV series called Eizouken ni wa Te o Dasu na! (Keep Your Hands Off Eizouken!).
just watched the first episode and it's up to his usual excellent standard, the sequences where the characters live inside their own drawings are wonderful
here's a trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acYbdQImkp4

yeah its good

thanks for the heads up on this; really enjoyed it!

how would you watch that, Funimation sub?

i mean, Crunchyroll?

yeah crunchyroll or illegal means

will probably finish in march if you want to be patient and watch it all on a free trial

Norstein is master of the form, but I'm now resigned to the likelihood that The Overcoat is never going to be finished in his lifetime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO2QqDervCU&t=71

It blows my mind that I can remember it being discussed on TV documentaries from around 20 years ago, and it's still only around halfway done.

So, I bought Zeman's 'Invention for Destruction' (that counts, right?), but now I'm worried it's just a renaming of his Jules Verne, which I think I have.

― Leaghaidh am brón an t-anam bochd (dowd), Friday, December 21, 2018 7:23 PM (one year ago)

https://www.criterion.com/boxsets/2880-three-fantastic-journeys-by-karel-zeman

I don't have a 4k TV but 1080p blurays with a nice looking box & features sounds nice.

family guy

BANNED

Zeman box looks very nice! Not sure I’m going to rebuy them though.

Newish director called Ujicha, cant wait for these!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkxSIDpPBR8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AFmFwQpfOQ

i watched half of violence voyager; didn't do much for me... kind of a motion comic.

oscar animated nom I Lost My Body is on netflix - is it worth a watch?

Found Oscar winner "Hair Love" online. It looks great and means well, but is ultimately kinda mawkish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNw8V_Fkw28

Quite amazing episode from a series called Operavox. I imagine this would have been astoundingly difficult to make. The faces are so expressive too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR7MdhB6GEc

After all my talk of patience recently, I've been guiltily skipping around most of my youtube backlog of animation.

Some of Piotr Dumala's films are really impressive, scratchy, with lots of large dark mysterious spaces with people moving in and out of the light. One of the most recent is a pretty heavy piece about domestic abuse.

It can't be emphasized enough that "Russian animation eus347" is an essential channel and without that person there would be a gaping hole in this world.

i watched Fierlinger's 'Drawn From Memory' last night, very solid... voicework from Vaclav Havel! this is a decent accompanying piece with selections from it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9AS_0Da0xM

thanks for that youtube channel btw; found tons of neat stuff immediately!

I hated the way Aeon Flux looked when I was a kid (didn't The Phantom cartoon look the same?) but I've heard some people say it was genius and this video explained why nicely enough. I'll probably never watch it but glad to know more about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfOT_-VQfi8

It's why I joined this board in the '90s! Life-changing.

Animation? Aeon Flux?

AF, in specific. Different handle back then, though.

Ya Idu Iskat (I Go Seek) 1992 by Fessenko.
Seems to be his only film. Some really impressive sights, most of them early on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXOASL4UzZg

WAAAH by Sawako Kabuki from 2018
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=npiEBAiRBHI

Nice

There's a lot more Takashi Taniguchi on youtube than there used to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubX_aqXctRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C_7_HvNSSg
This one is just a stomach complaining about things people eat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA3OywZK4Tc

oh mr stomach

I've come to the posistion that the funniest thing in Mr Ando Of The Woods is the titular character saying "Strike, Mr Ando Strike!"

Sadko The Rich (1975)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOWC3OtwAno
New Year's Wind (1975)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOvknsKKuuw
Outpaces The Wind (1978) music by Alexander Gradsky. This is a total downer, I don't know if the horse couldn't eat or people wouldn't feed him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFbDXdihoic
The Breeze (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM0Ffl1F87A

Romance Helgolandská - opening - music by Luboš Fišer-
This mainly for the music. just stunning! And what a shame how little of his music there is to buy, but tons on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUwsq-8JPc

It's probably quite mainstream but Henry Selick has an upcoming film with Key and Peele.

Shelter by Carl Burton - it's rare that I feature any cgi animation but it helps that this 6 minute piece has no humans or animals, just a surreal twisting house with otherworldly qualities
https://vimeo.com/37156003

Shingo Tamagawa. I could have put this in the anime thread but this looks like real labour of love stuff, quite amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWnqX41JHuM

that's lovely

Wolf Walkers is beautifully realized but it is unmistakably made for children and lost my attention after a half hour.

Just watched The Thief and The Cobbler for the first time, holy moley the high points are high.

Also finally got around to the recobbled Thief and the Cobbler. Pretty easy to understand how this never found an audience: it's visually an awe-inspiring art film and thematically made for small children. The plot is abysmally boring but the animation feels nearly computer created in its precision and buttery smoothness. Easy to love, hard to recommend.

Yeah it definitely doesn't work as a mass market feature. I'm sort of glad it is the way it is, because the simplicity of the plot works really well with the dreamlike quality of the whole thing. But maybe I'm just too smitten to see clearly.

It's a film I'd be happy to just show people the finale.

it's a great achievement! I'm not sure it's much of a movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhVehcHwOB8

That's amazing, never heard of Felix Colgrave before.

i hadn't either before this piece. it's an entirely original vision.

Due to an administrative oversight, he placed in the 2017 film poll.

Key Animation: Wes Archer (0:07 - 0:21)
Peter Chung (?)
Cartoon: Rugrats (Pilot) (1990)https://t.co/SIdlyweDS1 pic.twitter.com/pueranGLk6

— randomsakuga (@randomsakuga) November 1, 2019