Trans/Genderqueer/Agender/Questioning Thread

brazilian mecha ‏@fujoshidad

@CCriadoPerez 'we are all nonbinary' is the new 'i dont see race'

Ugh, I'm so sorry to hear about your friends' friend, Rev. I think I missed most of the Twitter harrassment toward non-binary people, and I don't want to ask anyone to dredge it back up, but was the Sarah Ditum blog post the catalyst?

Actually, never mind: there's no reason to give TERF discourse more attention here.

Yeah, on one level, I just feel like... ugh, stop giving the oxygen of publicity to TERFs, with a few notable exceptions*, they make a lot of noise but they are not the ones killing trans women and dumping their bodies behind Dairy Queens, why can't we direct the outrage and the vitriol towards those monsters, as well as merely old-fashioned feminists on twitter. (But maybe I'm just all out of outrage at the moment and trying to cut down the anger in my life right now, so TERFs are just something to avoid, for me, at the moment..)

*The exception being a noted TERF who I am not going to name here, with a nasty habit of genuinely vicious outing trans women's birth names and targeting their employers and using the legal system to make people's lives hell.

But then again, it does all form part of the same ecosystem of denial and erasure and hatred.

Basically, I just think that TERFs and MRAs should go off and form their own colony together in the desert somewhere, where they can live out each other's worst nightmares forever.

Also, I know her heart is in the right place, but this: "'we are all nonbinary' is the new 'i dont see race'" reads as much "throw non-binary people under the bus" as the crap it's against. I don't think it's helpful.

Should there be gender segregation w.r.t. restrooms & other public facilities at all? This is a serious, non-troll qn; I'm just curious about the take of people who know a lot more about this stuff than I do. I feel invested in the gender politics of restroom access because I have Crohn's disease & have to use public restrooms fairly often. Feel free to dismiss/ignore.

You know what the best loo setup I have seen recently was? A whole corridor of individual loo-lettes, each with its own door and lock, and everybody of every gender had to queue to use them.

I mean, why is it such a big deal to gender segregate public toilets? (And why is it so important for trans women to be able to access them?) Because SOME men feel so entitled to the bodies of people that read as "women" that if they are undressed or vulnerable for any reason - including relieving themselves - that they feel entitled to attack them.

I feel like I'm probably going to get piled on for even saying that. But the whole hundreds of years of "modesty" codes which have resulted in gender segregation of loos, changing rooms, locker rooms, basically boil down to "women cannot be seen naked, because men cannot control themselves." Which is total rape culture bullshit, I agree. But when trans women actify (is that even a word? I don't know that it is) to use gender-appropriate toilets, it is often because it is *their* safety that is at stake.

So, y'know, self-locking loo-lettes work for me.

sorry for the following quick derail: actify is listed in merriam-webster online as another word for activate, but I have no idea how you were using it just now

I was using it in the sense of trying to cram the political sense of "agitate" and "perform activism" into a short catchy verb but I'm not sure it works.

Yeah, the individual full-door rooms would definitely be ideal to me. I've seen those before & I'd love to see more of them, but I guess it is less economical in high-capacity venues? idk.

(the WORST restroom setup I've ever seen = a men's room with a trough & a stall-less toilet just out in the open and no door lock. I stepped in there and got freaked out and ended up going to another establishment to use the restroom. I am big on privacy!)

Thanks for responding!

the toilet debate is important insofar as trans users need to feel/be safe rather than re: cis users' feelings.

in r kelly's son's ask.fm, he said he used the toilet in the nurse's room iirc

a club here has a setup for a unisex bathroom I like, a big row of individual stalls + a few urinals tucked around a corner + a communal washing station

Also, I know her heart is in the right place, but this: "'we are all nonbinary' is the new 'i dont see race'" reads as much "throw non-binary people under the bus" as the crap it's against. I don't think it's helpful.

― you go PUNCHING yourself in... THE DICK! (Branwell with an N), Monday, June 16, 2014 1:39 AM Bookmark

Eh, I don't see this as an attack or erasure of non-binary people. If anything, it's pushing against the erasure of the former statement.

#HowToSpotACisPerson has been a good one to follow today

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23HowToSpotACisPerson&src=typd

timely; my new office is casually proposing unisex toilets and everyone is o_O
Ally McBeal amirite

Unisex toilets, as in shared washing up area, and urinals out in a space that women have to use just provokes in me a deep, instinctive FUCK NO.

The only way unisex toilets really work for me is if they are entirely self contained.

But, this may also be due to my perceiving loos as a safe space for MH issues, and I do not want to have to explain to strangers why I am crying in the toilet if I am having a bad MH day.

shared basins ok but I prefer separate M/F areas for cubicles.
ours would be entirely self-contained cubicles (but not designated M/F at all) in a shared space ie no urinals

The urinals in the bathroom I described are hidden around a corner from the rest of the bathroom behind a sign that says "urinals", no one even would see them unless they specifically went over there. (Plus the stall doors are totally solid and not open air.)

I really like this on the #howtospotacisperson tag:

https://twitter.com/ixKylie/status/478619667888476160

Kylie Jack ‏@ixKylie 1h

I’m not into this #howtospotacisperson HT. As Ive said before, cis people should always disclose.

no one even would see them unless they specifically went over there.

Really not familiar with the WHOOPS MADE YOU LOOKIT MY DICK tactics of ~~~~****SOME****~~~~ str8 dudes much, huh.

I mean, true, if a dude really wants to show you his dick, he will do it to you on the street or in hallways or staircases or wherever, regardless! (Yes, I am speaking from experience.) But I would rather not give them the opportunity to do it in what I think of as my "safe space".

I really like this on the #howtospotacisperson tag:

https://twitter.com/ixKylie/status/478619667888476160

Kylie Jack ‏@ixKylie 1h

I’m not into this #howtospotacisperson HT. As Ive said before, cis people should always disclose.

― The Reverend, Monday, June 16, 2014 8:59 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

not sure i get this one--a riff on 'trans people should always disclose'?

yes

Yes.

Branwell, I am sorry, you are right. This is my privilege as someone who is usually perceived as male speaking. :/

(Also it's a gay{-ish?} club, although that definitely does not mean there aren't sometimes noxious str8dudes there.)

Justin Vivian Bond has a longer explication of his defense of the word "tranny" in The Stranger's new trans-centered queer issue: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/about-the-word-tranny/Content?oid=19946137

Wasn't the first one long enough?

I really don't have the time to read anyone whose first sentence is equating "can you be more sensitive with your language" with "OMG CENSORSHIP!!!!!11 ~CONSERVATIVE~!!!"

You got your shovel, you just keep digging, but don't expect me to watch.

Anyway kinda burying the lead there I guess; The Stranger's whole queer issue is about transgender rights:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/queer-issue-2014/Content?oid=19946096

Sorry to just do the 'link drop' thing; I don't really feel this is an area where I am qualified to comment. I am trying to learn tho & I appreciate this thread for how much I have learned from it.

Sorry, Crabbits, that "shovel" comment was directed at Mx. Justin, not at you, in case there was any doubt.

Oh no, I know! That said, I always have my shovel in hand for about the same reason.

eg constantly making mistakes and saying disagreeable shit
also for gardening

I somehow have little faith in an issue on transgender rights from a paper edited by Dan Savage.

And written by Albert Camus! #shoveling

who needs productive discussion about modes of interaction wrt gender identity when we can react and react to insensitive language.

I would argue that using insensitive language makes it difficult to have a productive discussion

agreed.

I just discovered this thread when I was trying to ctrl+f "Transformers."

A friend's take on tensions within LGBT activism, touching on the language debate in which Mx. Bond's essay takes part: http://prospect.org/article/45-years-after-stonewall-lgbt-movement-has-transphobia-problem

hiiiiiiii

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/10251916_10202958359054705_8527134742160850902_n.jpg

Rad! (Is that CeCe with you, Rev?)

it is. I also danced with her for a moment :P

Amazing!

holy shit!!!!

we exchanged a couple of letters but you danced with her i'm so jealous

and watched her rap along to "Beez in the Trap" iirc

rev :D

http://lowerdens.tumblr.com/post/90448691182/on-pride

Can I please ask, in future, anyone who would like to participate in this thread, not to link dump?

Firstly because this is an emotive topic for those of us that are affected by these issues. Secondly because, as you can see several times upthread, some people have been using this thread not-in-good-faith.

If you have something to share, please can you explain what you are sharing - what it's about - and why you are sharing it? I really think that would be helpful in terms of generating respect and good faith, and it would lead to more productive discussions. Can I just ask you folks to do that? Thanks!

xp - Jana Hunter is really great, thanks for posting that.

http://bullybloggers.wordpress.com/2014/07/05/you-are-triggering-me-the-neo-liberal-rhetoric-of-harm-danger-and-trauma/

Mordy posted this Jack Halberstam blog entry in the creepy liberalism thread but I'm curious to what people in this thread think of it. I feel a bit of unease about the tendency towards individualism I sometimes see in queer circles and so a lot of what Halberstam says here resonates, but then his Gaga feminism thing doesn't really seem to account for the kinds of suffering that lead to that individualism seeming like a necessity. Maybe I think both sides are too positive about how self-construction can work? But I dunno.

I think Halberstam is right to call for more granular, intersectional analysis of marginalization and violence, which is why it's disappointing that his narrative about the spoiled queer kids of today seems to crudely efface experiential and material differences among LGBT youth for the sake of a tidy story about generations. On the whole, I agree with Natalia Cecire's reservations (see http://nataliacecire.blogspot.com/2014/07/on-neoliberal-rhetoric-of-harm.html). I'm also amused to see that Halberstam's essay has already spawned a Twitter parody, the work of the game designer and critic Merritt Kopas: https://twitter.com/halberslam.