Bramwell seconded this. Anyone can post in here I guess but let's try and keep the focus on talking about experiences and conjectures/thoughts about what this whole non-binary gender expression means to you. Queer theory is fine, Bio-truths and imposed rigidity BE GONE!
I guess I could start by paraphrasing my everything2 post from long ago... basically I identified as an androgynous bisexual male, which means I present as a man, but feel much more androgynous/agendered/pangendered(?).
Sexual as well as Gender identity might be fun to talk about. You want to post in here? You know who you are ;)
― if you can't take a joke stay the fuck out (Viceroy), Monday, 16 December 2013 13:25 (six years ago) link
I have so! many! thoughts! most of which I have already said in the other thread so I'm kinda burned out on talking right now, but yes! I am so glad this thread exists!
Kinda feel like, sexual identity is linked tangentially to gender identity, but as stated before in a correlative-non-causative way, so personally I'd prefer talking more about gender identity, but that might be 30 years internalised biphobia talking. Maybe overcoming biphobia is something we can talk about...
BUT. I also recognise the fact that gender is an identity separate from sexual orientation e.g. there are heterosexual trans women and lesbian trans women and bisexual transwomen - hey, just like cis women! - so there may be male-identity fancying genderqueers and female-identity fancying genderqueers and "gender is not the principle thing I'm attracted by" genderqueers - hey, just like everybody else.
But, basically, YAY. Excellent thread. Thank you.
― Branwell Bell, Monday, 16 December 2013 13:33 (six years ago) link
30 years internalised biphobia talking
Hah, you're not the only one dealing with that, for sure! Yeah, it seems like sleepy time and I also said a bunch of stuff on the other thread...
I feel like I should have included Trans in the thread title... I might try to get a mod to change that.
But, sleepy time... encroaching... must succumb...
― Viceroy, Monday, 16 December 2013 13:42 (six years ago) link
(Tis the season for thinking of departed friends, but god damn, did I just get a nostalgic tear, suddenly imagining Bimble bursting into the middle of this thread announcing "HI GUISE!!!" preferably accompanied by an angular Bauhaus bassline)
― Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 13:51 (six years ago) link
Oh! Oh! This is kind of important, so I wanted to add it right up at the top here.
The other reason I'm kind of a bit wary of lumping in discussing "sexual orientation" with discussing "genderqueer identity" is this: I do not wish to participate in the marginalisation of that other oft-erased group: Asexuals
Because, ironically, one of the largest group of genderqueer and agender people I've ever encountered in one place is the asexual community. It was often noted in that environment that there is a much higher incidence of genderqueer and agender people in the asexual community than in society at large. However, no one wanted to go so far as to categorically define a causation loop there. It might be that people who have sexual desire have less reason to signal a gender at all; it might be that being agender causes one to question all aspects of identity, including sexuality as well.
Either way; Asexuals, they exist. It would be remiss not to say so, at the start.
― Learn To Keep Your Mouth Shut, (Branwell Bell), Monday, 16 December 2013 15:55 (six years ago) link
Viceroy, I don't really know what you had in mind for this thread, but I just thought that this page is RELEVANT TO MY INTERESTS A+++++++++ WOULD LISTICLE AGAIN
and possibly relevant to the thread, but mostly just kinda hott.
― Branwell Bell, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 17:15 (six years ago) link
Oooh that is a good one!
As an aside I was hoping this thread might receive more attention but it seems to be just you and me. Wish I had a fun article to counter with.
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 03:40 (six years ago) link
Also as someone who is very attracted to androgynous people the female crossdressers who were in the middle of the rankings were way hotter to me than the ones who were more convincing males. I think my favorites are #14, #9 & #8.
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 03:53 (six years ago) link
Oh hi! I've been wanting to participate in the other thread but I haven't really had time to read it. So I guess in the past 6 months/year I've been pretty strongly questioning my assumptions about my own gender and come to the conclusion that I'm probably genderqueer. I've become a lot more comfortable with a more feminine gender expression although I still have my masc days where I just want to walk around in jeans and a black hoodie. I definitely glad this thread exists!
― The Reverend, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 07:34 (six years ago) link
A couple things that have really helped me build confidence over this in the past few months in particular: having an awesome trans roommate who takes me to lots of queer events and meeting my amazing queer gf who is totally into me exploring my feminine side.
― The Reverend, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 07:38 (six years ago) link
I will keep an eye out for more links, Viceroy. They tend to float through Twitter and Tumblr and it would be nice to give them more discussion.
Hey Rev I'm glad you popped in here.
I wonder sometimes why we talk so much about clothing when we talk about Genderqueer, because it goes so far beyond that, and it does make me worry about coming across as shallow (because "thinking about clothing" is coded "female" and therefore "shallow and not worth considering in any serious manner" and really, fuck that particular logic of thinking.) But given that clothing, in our culture (most cultures?) is the single most visible indicator of "coding male" or "coding female" it's not surprising people end up talking about it.
(I mean, obv there are other aspects of my life where I experience other-triggered gender dysphoria, notably "you're the lead guitarist?" or "you're the DB admin?" or "you're the DJ/producer/soundperson/whatevs" but those things don't make me feel *genderqueer* they just make me feel like the person saying these things is a MASSIVE FUCKING SEXIST because those things are such inherent interests/my fucking career/whatever, even though in their heads these activities are "male-coded" and I spend so much of my time doing them in male spaces and I don't think about "presenting male" in those spaces, I just think about "doing my fucking job." There are, believe it or not, Cis Women who also have those careers! This made me feel like it was a political act to identify as a Cis Woman while in those roles, even though really, I am not.)
So we talk about clothes, and we talk about presenting gender through clothes, because clothing is a language that we choose as a way of expressing something about ourselves. And quite frankly, I don't think "jeans and a hoodie" codes "male" at all in this time in this society, it codes "default clothes; unisex." What would be "coding male" in the way that putting on a skirt (a skirt and not a kilt) is coding female? I dunno; putting on a suit? A shirt and tie? Waistcoats? (Waistcoats are such a "girl in drag" signifier, it's hilarious. I have always loved waistcoats p much since high school. Not even Mumfords can take them from me.) Even now that men almost never wear waistcoats, even with suits (more's the pity) and the last time a boy in my office wore one, everybody said "Oh, you're dressing like (Branwell) now?" and he was mortified.
But the thing is, for me, putting on a waistcoat or a shirt and tie does not *feel* like Drag in quite the same way that putting on a dress and pantyhose feels like Drag. And I don't know how much of that is to do with the fact that women's clothes are often really super-uncomfortable, and change the way you have to stand and sit. And maybe it's deep memories of spending my entire childhood up to and including adolescence running around in my brother's hand-me-downs as play clothes and only having to put on Girl Drag for formal occasions like church and dinner parties and jeez, those situations were uncomfortable, so I have projected the discomfort onto the clothes associated with them?
The only place I've ever felt the slightest bit comfortable wearing "girl clothes" was on stage, and that was always a theatrical performance, and that playing the role of "Rock Star" involves putting on a costume whether that is leather trousers or a 60s minidress. (Or "On The Dancefloor" at clubs, which is a different kind of "Stage".) Playing gigs at the Pyramid Club, where there was a rock venue on one floor and a drag club on the other, and as you went in, the drag queens would look you over, and if you went onstage wearing jeans and a t-shirt even at the height of the grunge era, they would say "Honey, you're not even trying" yet if I turned up in a suit with a model on each arm, they'd be far more approving. (And got into the idea of wearing ballgowns and wigs onstage as a drag performance rather than my actual gender expression.) I own dresses I now never wear because I no longer go onstage and I've given up even wearing dresses to weddings and funerals.
But this is something else that Rev hits on. Performing gender implies an audience. When I was working, it went without saying to put on a shirt and tie to go to work. Now I'm unemployed, I'm not going to do the same just to go to the supermarket. Having a roommate, having a partner, going to queer events and the like give you contexts in which to explore performing gender in different ways. Which is great! It sounds amazing! But without a context, sitting around on the sofa in pyjama bottoms and a massive hippie jumper so large as to render me genderless provides comfort on one level (no one is making me perform gender, phew, what a relief) but having a genderqueer space and a context in which to exist and perform without judgement (or at least without judgement on what gender you're supposed to be) would be way, way better.
― Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 10:11 (six years ago) link
Hmmm, I don't consider it drag when I wear women's clothes and I've really never cared for drag as an artform at all. It's exactly the performative aspects of it that I find offputting (also, while this obviously doesn't apply to drag kings or "bio queens", I've always found the idea of men caricaturing women gross). I guess I think about it more in terms of inner expression than performance. Wearing women's clothes doesn't feel performative to me so much as expressing my authentic (bear with me on this word) self. That doesn't necessarily mean that when I wear male clothes I'm being my fake self, depending on how I feel. But sometimes it feels off and I feel dysphoric, albeit this is fairly rare. Like on my dating profile I have a picture of myself in a suit which I have there because it was taken by a professional photographer and it's really the best recent picture I have, from a technical standpoint. But I was just looking at it and going, "that's not me." However, on the actual night this past summer when the photo was taken, I felt like an absolute stud dressed like that.
What I really react negatively to these days is having my masculinity enforced by other people, almost always men.
― The Reverend, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:23 (six years ago) link
Something I wanted to say on the other thread: I can't relate to people who say they have no inner sense of gender or never thinking about their gender presentations. I'm constantly thinking about how I present my gender, almost to the point of obsession recently. My friend Lorena said something recently (which I can no longer find) that I identified strongly with about feeling alienated by non-binary people who felt felt neither male nor female. Her response was that she wants all the gender. I feel like that too.
― The Reverend, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:28 (six years ago) link
Which is probably why I feel comfortable being addressed by either male or female pronouns but don't like gender-neutral pronouns at all.
― The Reverend, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:31 (six years ago) link
I mean, obv there are other aspects of my life where I experience other-triggered gender dysphoria, notably "you're the lead guitarist?" or "you're the DB admin?" or "you're the DJ/producer/soundperson/whatevs" but those things don't make me feel *genderqueer* they just make me feel like the person saying these things is a MASSIVE FUCKING SEXIST because those things are such inherent interests/my fucking career/whatever, even though in their heads these activities are "male-coded" and I spend so much of my time doing them in male spaces and I don't think about "presenting male" in those spaces, I just think about "doing my fucking job."
That's clearly some classic sexist assholism..."What?! A LADY Doctor! *monocle pop*"bleeecchhh. Why do people even fucking make comments like that?!
anyway, my only takeaway is that being able to admin a database is 1) not a gendered activity and 2) damn fucking sexy.
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:32 (six years ago) link
Obviously none of this is to shit on people who tend more to the agender side, that's just much farther from how I feel personally than either male or female binary genders would be. xp
― The Reverend, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:33 (six years ago) link
Haha my response would be 1) not a gendered activity and 2) ewwww techies avoid AVOID AVOID but agreed that that's just plain old sexism.
― The Reverend, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:35 (six years ago) link
Hmmm, I don't consider it drag when I wear women's clothes and I've really never cared for drag as an artform at all. It's exactly the performative aspects of it that I find offputting (also, while this obviously doesn't apply to drag kings or "bio queens", I've always found the idea of men caricaturing women gross). I guess I think about it more in terms of inner expression than performance. Wearing women's clothes doesn't feel performative to me so much as expressing my authentic (bear with me on this word) self.
I have in the past taken any chance to wear women's clothes in public with the *pretense* that I was in drag/standard straight boy crossdressing, like for costume parties and such... but really I was trying to see how well I could pass for female. Which in its own way is performative, maybe? I don't think its performative in the same way as being a drag queen or a female impersonator is.
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:37 (six years ago) link
For me, it's more like... I would just like agender to be an *option* for me. It is never going to be an option for me because of my stupid fucking annoying body (and the first person who says "binders" to me will get a pop on the nose, because, really, *fuck* binders.)
Nah, really, I'm OK with my body most of the time. But it just means that "body positivity" has an extra dimension to it. It's not me; it's some station wagon that ferries me around.
I'm feeling kinda bummed now, but it's been a kinda "onslaught of bad news" kinda day.
p.s. adminning a database is not "sexy" it is a fucking job. And I would also really like a space where every action I performed was not judged on whether it was "sexy" or not. I'm really not trying to pick on you, Viceroy, I know you meant it as a compliment, but that's part of what I am trying to get rid of. Say adminning a database is "powerful" or "cool" or whatever else. But I'm kinda done with being judged on "sexy."
― Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:39 (six years ago) link
Sorry, I guess that was flip... I meant really more that it's difficult and brainy and that sort of thing is attractive to me. I understand how you feel and I apologize.
Is perhaps being able to be fully agender is a privilege that people with relatively androgynous can enjoy? I haven't really thought about that.
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:45 (six years ago) link
^ relatively androgynous *bodies
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:46 (six years ago) link
Nah, I get it, and it's fine, but I do appreciate the apology.
I don't think it's related to "relatively androgynous" but more to "man as default gender." It's easier to pass as the quintessential "non-gendered" avatar stick man of the internet when you have short hair, white skin and no visible breasts.
I could say more about "androgynous" becoming code for "pretty boys and slim girls" rather than people that actually have a mix of masculine and feminine features, but... oops, I think I just did anyway.
― Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 19:50 (six years ago) link
"androgynous" becoming code for "pretty boys and slim girls"
I think, unfortunately, that IRL, there's no "becoming" about it - that's what they mean. I mean literally androgynous but not in an avatar stick man way cause that sounds weird and gross.
And I agree with the man as default gender thing as it relates to the ease of being androgynous and identifying as agender. Looks like male privilege wins again.
I guess I don't have anything more to add to that line of discussion.
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:00 (six years ago) link
Well, no, because one can separate the concepts of "androgynous" and "agender" and "default gender" - these are different things to be teased apart.
― Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:03 (six years ago) link
I feel like your're mad at me for agreeing with you and also mad at me for not being able to completely formulate what I mean to say perfectly.
Of course you can separate those concepts, I was trying to talk about how they might be interrelated. But I'm pretty clumsy I guess. No offense intended.
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:16 (six years ago) link
Her response was that she wants all the gender.
― sleeve, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:19 (six years ago) link
Viceroy! I'm not angry at you at all! I apologise if in any way shape or form, anything made you think I as angry at you! I think these are interesting conversations to be having, and I'm grateful to you for having them with me!
OK, honestly, I am experiencing quite a lot of ~ambient anger~ right now, mostly because it's been "International Talk About Sex With 13 Year Olds" today and yesterday and all week really, and, as someone who was raped at 13, that's a topic that generates huge amounts of quite justifiable anger in me - which I do understand, keeping that anger under control makes my posts about any emotive topics kinda short and curt and maybe a bit strained, which can probably be read as "angry." But I'm not actually ~angry~ at anyone right now. Especially not you, Viceroy. This stuff is cool to think about.
― Branwell Bell, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:26 (six years ago) link
oh ok! Damn, yeah I can see why you'd have a lot of ambient anger and distress! That sounds really shitty to have to deal with and highly triggering!!
― Viceroy, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 20:56 (six years ago) link
I think it's an interesting dynamic, that "I want to have ALL the gender" vs "I want to have NONE of the gender" are related in that they are both rejections of the gender binary, but they're also quite different, both in presentation and maybe in the internal experience of it. The confusion over vocabulary is to be expected when it's still unfamiliar (and in many cases, still in the process of words being defined.) (Are any words ever really *done* being defined? That's another question.)
"What does this word even mean?" is a good discussion to start with IMO.
― Branwell Bell, Thursday, 19 December 2013 12:49 (six years ago) link
I don't know if anyone else is still even reading/posting to this thread or if there are just too damn few of us to keep this going?
Anyway, this popped up on Tumblr today:
And there's been a lot of discussion about pronouns in the trans* community (and I still don't feel entirely comfortable identifying as part of that community, even thought "the trans* community" as such was specifically widened from "the trans community" with the aim of including ~people like me~ - which is a weird thing in and of itself, because the bulk of my life has been identity-based communities narrowing themselves to *not* include ~people like me~ - so on one level it's nice but on another level, it's kinda... I don't want to co-opt an identity I have no right to? But that is not the discussion at hand here...)
The discussion I want to bring up is about pronouns. And though I am really, really in favour of the idea of Gender Neutral Pronouns (whether that be Zie/singular They/whatever) just for the purpose of getting the default misogyny out of the English language. And though I am also really in favour of people using - and other people respecting - the pronoun that best fits their gender. And fully believing that actively misgendering someone who has specified a pronoun is an act of aggression.
Still, I don't actually GAF what pronoun someone uses, regarding me, and feel that it's somehow bad that I've not even considered this. (Dealing with shit in my life, I've got bigger fish to fry/hills to die on.) But trying to say that in a way that is not diminishing of people who do feel it's important to them. This is my personal experience, and my personal preference, and is in no way proscriptive of other people's preferences or experiences!
I would love a gender neutral pronoun to use on *everyone*, and to use in place of all those clumsy "him or her" constructions in instruction manuals. I would love that!
But the idea of adopting a pronoun and insisting people use it with regards to me... wow, I have enough battles.
― Branwell Bell, Thursday, 2 January 2014 11:10 (six years ago) link
(The thing about thinking "you are the only one" for years, then finding others ~like you~ is that sudden fear that you might actually be ~doing things wrong~ when you had no idea that all along you were even doing a thing.)
― Branwell Bell, Thursday, 2 January 2014 11:45 (six years ago) link
iirc Sweden recently introduced a gender-neutral pronoun ('hen'?) into the language. Will be interesting to see how usage picks up over the next few years.
― Ramnaresh Samhain (ShariVari), Friday, 3 January 2014 10:55 (six years ago) link
That's the kind of question that thrills my inner linguistics nerd - is that the kind of thing that can be imposed onto a language, will usage pick up, or will it become a kind of formal thing that falls by the wayside?
Not even looking at pronouns, but looking at formal systems of grammar, there are examples of both tendencies. That Latin, with its multiple declensions, had nouns that were masculine, feminine, and neuter. But most modern Romance languages (at least the ones I've studied) have lost the neuter and gone to a 2-gender system. Then you have a language like English, where, even though its source languages have grammatical gender, almost all nouns except personal ones have had the gender rubbed off them.
Feel like on account of this, English should be better. (And for a long time, it seems like it was - have seen evidence that singular "they" was considered good English grammar for most of modern English's history, and the default "he" was actually fairly modern invention.)
I guess this is just kinda indicative of my systems-thinking, that I really want a gender neutral pronoun for applying in general cases, but am completely uninterested in whether or not it gets applied to me specifically.
― Branwell Bell, Friday, 3 January 2014 12:15 (six years ago) link
I read about someone documenting the organic use of "Yo" as a gender-neutral pronoun by young people--oh, here it is!
― Horreur! What are this disassociated lumps of (in orbit), Friday, 3 January 2014 14:09 (six years ago) link
In most cases you can rewrite a sentence to exclude pronouns and thus avoid the awkward "they." For example:
"A student asked me if they could use the bathroom" becomes "A student asked to use the bathroom."
― the objections to Drake from non-REAL HIPHOP people (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 3 January 2014 14:17 (six years ago) link
The place I butt up against pronoun trouble the most is actually in writing manuals/help documentation for databases and other apps. So, although to a certain extent, you can replace gendered language by making it plural (Data entry operators should do X... blah blah blah... then they do Y...) but there are times when obviously only one user will be using a particular bit, and shoehorning in "they" becomes more and more clumsy. The obvious solution would be to use "you do X..." but technical writing can't easily take on that tone of informality.
― Branwell Bell, Friday, 3 January 2014 14:40 (six years ago) link
A Friday LOL relevant to this thread: http://www.robot-hugs.com/but-men/
― Ian from Etobicoke (Phil D.), Friday, 3 January 2014 15:40 (six years ago) link
LOL-tastic! I'm going to go and put that on the Gurl Thread because: relevant to our interests!
― Branwell Bell, Friday, 3 January 2014 16:03 (six years ago) link
I think a gender-neutral pronoun is pretty important but their seems to be a weird glut of them and they seem to be not easily pronounceable or at least it's not self-evident how they would be pronounced. Such words won't catch on if you can't use them unawkwardly in spoken English, I feel.
IDK my knee-jerk opinion is that instead of worrying about misgendering someone, you should probably just ask them their name and use that. If they want to tell you their gender they will.
― Viceroy, Saturday, 4 January 2014 00:31 (six years ago) link
I love that cartoon
― sleeve, Saturday, 4 January 2014 01:04 (six years ago) link
um also in the "don't know where to put this so I'm putting it here" department, two teenagers that I currently know have decided to change gender from F to M in the last year or two. I live in a diehard bastion of the Left Coast, so it is really awesome to see them be able to do this with a minimum of hassle and a lot of community support. in fact, one of the families moved back here from Minnesota so that the kid would have an easier time (they had left a couple of years ago).
Pat Califia was probably the first person I read who really started breaking down the science of gender, in terms of how the reality is non-binary. it makes so much more sense to me when you open up the possibilities like that.
― sleeve, Saturday, 4 January 2014 01:16 (six years ago) link
Re gender neutral pronouns, I've been saying "they" since I was a kid. It sounds pretty natural. Re misgendering someone, it isn't often that I have to refer to someone's gender at all unless I do so in the third person, which is a situation that rarely comes up when a person is present, and can be avoided with a little thoughtfulness. What I usually do is explain to the person I'm talking to that I don't want to misgender so-and-so, and say "they," or I just say "they" in the first place and forego the spiel. It's not a perfect solution, because it's not what that person would necessarily prefer, but it's respectful, maybe? Or not. I'm not sure. But they don't have to hear something dysphoric to their face.
― bamcquern, Saturday, 4 January 2014 01:31 (six years ago) link
I was thinking recently that I suspect there are a lot of cis gendered men who would like to be prettier, or would like to look nicer in women's clothing (or even to have the opportunity (which they do have, I admit) to engage with fashion and style the way women do) or who would like to be more "feminine." I also thought about cis men and women's dissatisfaction with their bodies and genitals: balls that hurt, ugly penises, ugly vaginas, stubbly faces and hairy legs, high pitched and low pitched voices, balding heads, weird boobs. (Assume free indirect discourse where you please. Add your own scare quotes.) The wrong shape. The wrong height. All the sex-characteristic pains and discomforts.
― bamcquern, Saturday, 4 January 2014 01:40 (six years ago) link
I'm totally happy with my body, it's just my presentation and, I guess, personality traits I find myself unhappy with often. I guess that's not quite true. Sometimes I wish I was short so I would have to stand on my tippytoes to kiss someone.
Re: pronouns, I feel bad about it but "they" just feels awkward to me. I use it if someone has specifically requested it or if I have good reason to suspect I might otherwise misgender someone, but it feels so lumpen on my tongue. For other people's usage to describe me, I prefer male pronouns unless I have specifically given permission to use female pronouns.
Viceroy, I'm guessing for most people who choose pronouns like ze and hir and etc, it's more about queering language than practicality of use.
― The Reverend, Saturday, 4 January 2014 07:21 (six years ago) link
Two of my roommates had a big shouting match a few weeks ago cause one (cis) kept purposefully misgendering the other (trans). I had to intervene on the side of the latter because the former just did not want to listen to him, but I was really glad he finally stood up for himself on that matter.
Oh and, I was going to post about "yo" a couple days ago when BB first brought this up but I didn't have time! I've been thinking about "yo" a lot lately.
― The Reverend, Saturday, 4 January 2014 07:26 (six years ago) link
There's this weird disconnect between wanting to use people's pronoun's as a way of showing respect for their gender identity, which is great, and this space of "treating trans* people totally differently from the one one treats cis people, which is totally icky.
I was emailing A, who had met our mutual friend B, who is trans, at a concert, and I wanted to ask "What is B like? Zie is hilarious online! Is Zie the same in person?" because I do not know what pronoun B uses and respect B enough to want to get it right, and know that B's trans-ness is an important thing to B. But at the same time realising, that if A had met C, who is cis, I would not have thought twice about saying 'What is C like? She seems really wise online, is she the same in person?" and I would never have thought to use a gender neutral pronoun with C. And not knowing which of those two options is the better - queering everyone, or trying to adjust my language based on known preferences*.
*Yes, I also know that using the words "preferred pronoun" is problematic. When you are talking about e.g. a trans woman it is quite clear to me that her pronoun is "her" and this is not a "preference", this is just her pronoun. But asking to use "their" or "Zie" or "Hir" etc - the act of *choosing one* of several ambiguous pronouns is a preference, where requesting "a gender-neutral pronoun" is not a preference in the same way "a trans woman is she" is not a preference. It's tough. I'm of two minds about this.
It's shitty, because I've heard both sides, in terms of "showing respect means not assuming and waiting until the person volunteers" vs "OMG I am so sick of having to *tell* people what my pronoun is, it would be nice, just once in my life, to be *asked*" which really starts to feel like, whatever choice you make, is wrong. But still wanting to show basic respect.
It depends. I've said before, I don't really care what pronouns people use (I've spent a lot of my life being indiscriminately gendered, with embarrassment for the other person, and mostly just amusement for me) but for real, if anyone ever uses "zie" or any other gender neutral pronoun with me, I instantly perk up and just think "you are my people!" because it shows they've thought about this stuff.
OK, I'm going to do some reading on "yo". It feels rather too American for me to use, but it's an interesting idea.
― Branwell Bell, Saturday, 4 January 2014 10:25 (six years ago) link
Kind of thinking about other stuff, presentation and the like...
Body dissatisfaction in cis people is a whole nother kettle of fish, possibly tangentially related, but... OK, I spent nearly 3 years working for a cosmetic surgeon, surrounded by an environment that was constantly trying to ramp up body dissatisfaction for commercial gain. On one level, it actually made it easier to ignore, because when you see the brutal capitalist machinery of what is behind the constant advertising/media representation of "body perfection" it does on one level empower (ugh, sorry, horrible word) one to see the man behind the curtain and go "this is fucking bullshit and should be torn down and resisted with every ounce of one's being." But on another level, living inside that environment 40, 50 hours a week, every week for 3 years, I do believe that ramped up my body dissatisfaction and, more saliently, my gender dysphoria to the breaking point. The result was a kind of collapse that I'm able to see in retrospect as a nervous breakdown. Living in that environment would have been difficult and challenging for person who was totally confident in their Cis-ness. Living in that environment as a person who was already trans-ish and questioning and would have called themself probably genderqueer had they had that word, it was one of the most actively poisonous environments of my life, all the most poisonous aspects of late capitalist gender malarkey ramped up to 11, all the time.
So... on level, it's like, yeah, this shit is awful for Cis people. But it's worse for trans* people.
But from a different angle, there's a point where, if you are trans* you are almost never going to measure up to "society"s standards of beauty, so why bother, and it's incredibly freeing to recognise them as impossible-for-you and thus disregard them.
OK, what follows is mine own digestion-of-things-I-have-read and quite possibly bullshit and misremembered because my memory is so poor, feel free to correct me or link the correct source or call me out for unexamined bias, but this is my supposition:
It's inspired by the memory of reportings, IIRC, of self image in fat women - I do not remember if this was an actual study, or just a blog or a comments thread, so I do not know the sample size or how representational this is. In this discussion, there was a discrepancy in the self-reporting of white women reporting poor self image based on their perceived fatness, but fat black women had better self image and were more likely to self report feeling "beautiful" and affirming their beauty than fat white women. And there was some discussion of what might cause this, if it were a greater acceptance of a wider range of body types in African American communities (well, yes and no, different range of body types, but not necessarily wider.) But when those black women were asked about their positive self image, individual women said things like - because the standard of beauty in this country is so based around thinness, yes, but also whiteness, blondness, European looks, those things are just Not Applicable. If you have to recreate a personal standard of beauty entirely from scratch, that standard of beauty for self love can include fatness as well as different standards of skin tone, hair texture. It's paradoxically less of a big project to include that one aspect in an image of beauty and self love made completely from scratch, than it is to try to match a standard of perfection where you are capable of matching several aspects (whiteness, European features and hair) that do look like you, but not the impossible one that doesn't look like you (weight).
I apologise again, for any misremembering, misinterpretation and also for lack of links to where I encountered these ideas - the fat-o-sphere is a big place. It might have been a study, a blog, a comments thread, I have such poor memory, I do not remember the source; I would be grateful if anyone else did. I also acknowledge the possibility that I may have got this completely RONG in a way that is hugely offensive to Women of Colour, though I really hope that I haven't. I do *not* mean to imply that black women "have it any easier" in this culture, because clearly they do not, it's about self-reporting, not about how one is perceived by others.
Now I'm done qualifying and hedging and "trying and probably failing not to express racist things when talking about race": the thing that stuck with me, and the takeaway that I took away, was this idea that when you are trying to measure yourself against an impossible standard that *seems* achievable, it is much harder to resist it than an impossible standard that will *never* be achievable. To use an example switched to enhance its absurdity: there is some capitalist fantasy world where if I buy all the products and use all the things, it is just conceivable that it might be achievable, *maybe* to turn out looking like Claudia Schiffer. There is no fantasy world where I buy all the products and use all the things where I turn out looking like Idris Elba.
Cis-Het femininity, I have just accepted, is just not an option that is available to me. I say this as someone who has been "read" as queer, my entire life, even when I was trying most hard to present as heterosexual. Cis-Het masculinity is also just not an option that is available to me. I am already "other". It's up to me to piece together a personal standard of gender, like a personal standard of beauty, which includes me and that I can live up to.
Talking about this stuff is hard, and I am not up to the task. I apologise again for all the ways in which I have got it wrong. I am often aware of being the stupidest person on any given thread, this is just one more. Sorry.
― Branwell Bell, Saturday, 4 January 2014 11:23 (six years ago) link
Oh, and one more thing, which I was thinking of after waking up but before reading this thread: wondering about the intersection of "performing a gender" with "interacting with other people."
This is a thought provoked by how currently isolated I am right now, how few IRL interactions with other people I have right now, and if my increasing sense of "being agender" is related to "no others to perform gender to" rather than an intrinsic quality. Interactions with other people = "performing/identifying genderqueer" while being on one's own for days/weeks at a time = "no performance, ergo identifying agender."
Don't want to sound too mopey or "lonely guy just thinkin bout things" though.
Right. Must. Leave. House. Now.
― Branwell Bell, Saturday, 4 January 2014 11:37 (six years ago) link
Realised, on reflection, I can summarise that sprawling, overthinky, awkwardly phrased post up above:
For Women of Colour, and/or also for Trans* people, practising self love as a political act.
― Branwell Bell, Saturday, 4 January 2014 12:23 (six years ago) link
Yeah, that whole spiel otm. I guess I'm conventionally attractive, but the less I've worried about imposed standards of masculinity, the more attractive I've felt. When I was trying hard to be masculine, I didn't feel attractive at all.
Not just too American! On a side note, part of the reason I've been thinking about "yo" a lot, is because my roommate, who is black and trans, has a name that begins with those two letters and is used to being called Yo anyways. So I've ended up trying it out a few times since reading about it. Plus it's just fun to use.
― The Reverend, Saturday, 4 January 2014 19:12 (six years ago) link
congratulations to kate and alexandria!
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 22 August 2019 18:19 (eleven months ago) link
― pomenitul, Thursday, 22 August 2019 18:28 (eleven months ago) link
Congrats, congrats everyone!
― emil.y, Thursday, 22 August 2019 22:45 (eleven months ago) link
congratulations kate and alexandria and much <3 to you both
― estela, Friday, 23 August 2019 01:38 (eleven months ago) link
― a passing spacecadet, Saturday, 24 August 2019 12:42 (eleven months ago) link
congratulations, both, and good wishes
― forensic plumber (harbl), Saturday, 24 August 2019 15:36 (eleven months ago) link
It is a joyful thing! Happy for you!
― plax (ico), Saturday, 24 August 2019 15:42 (eleven months ago) link
congratulations alexandria! jeez, this thread is absolutely the loveliest thing right now
― times 牛肉麵 (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, 25 August 2019 12:11 (eleven months ago) link
alexandria <3 <3 <3
― Get Me Bodied (Extended Mix), Thursday, 29 August 2019 08:27 (eleven months ago) link
Came out yesterday to my extended department (several dozen people) at our team meeting yesterday. Don't ask me how I managed it because I don't know. Wrote up what I was going to say beforehand. I'm proud of it. I liked the simplicity and clarity it had. Decided to stay home from the concert I was going to go to so I can take it easy and recover. I'm still an introvert and I still need to take care of myself and give myself space to breathe.
― sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 00:00 (ten months ago) link
that‘s monumental, you are fantastic <3
― times 牛肉麵 (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 11 September 2019 00:24 (ten months ago) link
FUCKING HELL EPILATING HURTS
― sock fingering, baby (rushomancy), Sunday, 15 September 2019 01:14 (ten months ago) link
Had some dysphoria yesterday. Overall I'm pretty low dysphoria because where I live nobody treats me with anything other than kindness and acceptance. The stuff that gets me is the way people deal with transitioning online. There's all this pressure for voice training. I'm not really happy about my voice, but only because of my actual speech impediment. I like being able to speak with a deeper voice, and most trans women don't, and I know that doesn't mean there's something wrong with me but it doesn't stop me from feeling it.
I also do really bad with photos. A lot of trans women take selfies, and I never learned how to smile for the camera. It's weird, I do like how I look in the mirror, but seeing a photo of myself, hearing my voice, these things I just absolutely hate. A lot of it is my face - I consciously do "natural look" makeup because I am middle-aged and most trans women are considerably younger and I can't look as good as they do. To the extent that "passing" involves hiding who I am, I don't want to do that; I just want to find a look that works for me. But I'm not pretty, I have a big nose, and that on top of the deeply embedded transphobia (the ingrained notion that feminine presenting people with male bodies are somehow grotesque or disgusting) I grew up with I guess set me off. I'm fortunate to live in a situation where nobody reinforces that toxic message.
For the time being I guess I should just keep avoiding having pictures taken of me. It seems to do more harm than good.
― Poody Mae Bubblebutt, Miss Kumquat of 1947 (rushomancy), Monday, 23 September 2019 14:26 (ten months ago) link
*** hugs ***
I've settled into a look that I think fits who I am and that I like -- the other day I was actually super-pleased with hair and makeup, like everything just came together. But boy do I get super dysphoric about my voice and my body.
― I don't get wet because I am tall and thin and I am afraid of people (Eliza D.), Monday, 23 September 2019 14:30 (ten months ago) link
I'm trying to be patient and view myself as a work in progress. I know a lot of people get benefit from the transtimelines thing, which again I don't do pictures so isn't something I do, but a lot of it is just being patient and knowing that there's a lot for me to do and I have time to do it. But it's also really nice when I can accept myself as I am now, which is more of an occasional thing!
― Poody Mae Bubblebutt, Miss Kumquat of 1947 (rushomancy), Monday, 23 September 2019 15:31 (ten months ago) link
I'm about two weeks away from an appointment with an endo. I think I'm sort of doing this thing backasswards because while I'm generally out as a queer somewhat GNC dude, I'm not widely out as trans largely because I'm middle-aged and I'm still not 100% sure that HRT is a path I'm going to follow. At the moment I think my plan is to start, see how I feel, then make up the rest as I go along. Meanwhile I've lurked around ILX since the mid-aughties, but never contributed much, which is to say that I'd be delighted by an invite to the 77 thread and the opportunity to learn from there.
― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Monday, 23 September 2019 17:03 (ten months ago) link
if you're worrying about not doing things in the proper order, the good news is there is no proper order, i think we're all sort of just making this up as we go along. there are plenty of people who don't come out until they're on hrt for a while.
one of the things i love about this board is that while there aren't a ton of trans people here, the ones who are tend to be more roughly my age. i definitely think there are unique challenges that gen x-ers have coming out but also things that we often have going for us that the younger people don't. i know there are other places for older people coming out but i just haven't clicked as much with them for whatever reason.
anyway i realized today that yesterday was the first time i went out as femme in a cis space, as opposed to just going to a queer group, and it suddenly makes a lot more sense that i had a touch of dysphoria.
― Poody Mae Bubblebutt, Miss Kumquat of 1947 (rushomancy), Monday, 23 September 2019 23:42 (ten months ago) link
i'm not nearly confident enough about my body to wear a lot of clothing explicitly marked as femme, so my own styles tend toward androgynously gay middle-aged soccer mom—yoga pants, big shirts/sweaters/hoodies—, middle-aged Patti Smith fan, middle-aged flannel lesbian, middle-aged soft Kurt Cobain, and middle-aged Catherine Christer Hennix lol.
― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 15:04 (ten months ago) link
wrote something this morning
The first time I saw someone self-identify as an attack helicopter I was hurt and upset. This was, of course, the intent. These days I mostly find it to be an interesting response to me.
There's, first off, the tit-for-tat aspect. I can't have what I want, apparently, because they can't have what they want. The idea that anything could be about anything but them is intolerable. Having gone through long periods of severe depression, depression which closed off my horizons so that I could see nothing beyond myself, I can relate to that.
I also am increasingly inclined to accept them. Sure, why not? I have the right to self-determination, you have the right to self-determination. And if a key part of their self-determination is wanting to be something that hurts and destroys... honestly, such people, it's easier to treat them as attack helicopters than it is to treat them as human beings.
Of course, that's only part of it. The other part of being an attack helicopter is being able to fly.
I dream of flying. A fair amount. Sometimes people will tell me that that's actually a sex thing, and I can't say for sure that sex has nothing to do with it, but that seems awfully reductive to me. I relate more to the Alfreda Benge poem "September the 9th".
I can sort of hear the response from self-identified attack helicopters now. Believing something, they might say, does not make it so. The woman in the poem can't fly, never will fly. She doesn't have the _bone structure_ for it.
Why is it so important to them? Why do they need to insist that she is incapable of flying? I mean, it's not up to them whether or not she can fly, is it?
I guess it wouldn't be fair to them, would it? If she could fly and they couldn't? Human beings can't fly unassisted, that's central to who they are. Their limitations define them.
The woman in the poem isn't trying to fly unassisted. She flies because the swallows gracefully accept her. Of course they do. To fly is to be graceful, and in any case they have no reason to not accept her.
I was told for many years, believed for many years, what was impossible for me, but I have a hard time believing that after seeing so many other people do those things, have a hard time understanding those people who continue to insist that I am fraudulent. I'm glad I'm no longer in a position where I'm required to care about or accept their bizarre beliefs.
― Poody Mae Bubblebutt, Miss Kumquat of 1947 (rushomancy), Wednesday, 25 September 2019 13:31 (ten months ago) link
Trigger warning: Transphobia, suicide talk.
I support the right to self-determination. So if the dev of Heartbeat says that he is completely an 100% a cis man, I accept that and will gender him accordingly. If he says that the characters in his old-school RPG, basically all of whom are kawaii animal girls with a wide variety of cute outfits, are all canonically cis human-animal hybrids, well, it's his game, he would know. If the existence of trans people, some of whom _might even have played and enjoyed his game_, is upsetting to him, well, that doesn't make him anything other than a totally normal, reasonable, and ordinary cis person. Just because us trans people upset him so much that he wants us to kill ourselves doesn't mean that he has any personal issues around gender that he would benefit from working through.
So I guess I'll just remove the game from my library, then. I'd ask for a refund but apparently "game author wants me to kill myself" is not covered grounds for a refund under Steam's refund policy. Well, I'm sure he's not the first person I've given money to who wants me dead!
― Calpico Girlfriend (rushomancy), Wednesday, 2 October 2019 12:39 (ten months ago) link
Just because us trans people upset him so much that he wants us to kill ourselves doesn't mean that he has any personal issues around gender that he would benefit from working through.
I don't play many games—and I'm very much on the fringes of anything that could be called games culture—so I rarely see shit like this unless I go looking for it, but when I do I'm always just stunned by the sheer juvenility of it all. You can do anything with your life and you spend it coming up with increasingly tortured reasons to celebrate being pointlessly cruel to some small minority of people? Shit, I've been best pals with depression and self-loathing for most of my life and even I don't hate myself that much.
― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Wednesday, 2 October 2019 13:36 (ten months ago) link
just here to say congrats and big love to all of you <3
― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Thursday, 3 October 2019 00:47 (ten months ago) link
looks like i picked the wrong week to start taking e
― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Tuesday, 8 October 2019 15:12 (nine months ago) link
i started taking e this week too, why is this a bad week for it?
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 00:26 (nine months ago) link
Sorry to be a dumb cis person, but what does "e" refer to in this context?
― Maria Edgelord (cryptosicko), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 00:28 (nine months ago) link
"spironolactone" is a drug commonly taken with estrogen (in the us at least) to block testosterone, and now you know the pun in my username
and yeah, i grew up thinking of "e" as a slang term for molly
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 00:40 (nine months ago) link
why is this a bad week for it?
oh it was just a dumb airplane joke about the SCOTUS business. cheers tho!
― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:47 (nine months ago) link
“Spironolactone T. Agnew” lol. have actually thought of getting a SC state motto tattoo—“dum spiro spero”
― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:57 (nine months ago) link
oh yeah, i've mostly been ignoring the supreme court thing. they can recapitulate bowers v. hardwick again if they want; i'm not expecting them to acknowledge my civil rights.
congrats on the e, btw!
i see a lot of people online complaining that spiro is basically the only fda-approved anti-androgen, we'll see how it works out!
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 02:04 (nine months ago) link
btw k., did you ever get access to 77? i copied and pasted your request to the mod request forum but sometimes they do seem to totally miss requests and it needs to bumped.
the "dum" in that motto makes me think of "dum maro dum". i don't think i'd toke spiro.
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:21 (nine months ago) link
they can recapitulate bowers v. hardwick again if they want; i'm not expecting them to acknowledge my civil rights.
OTOH i agree with the writer who observed that "they're seeking the right to gloat; they can already fire us" and OTO i'm like i don't want them to have that right, either!
did you ever get access to 77? i copied and pasted your request to the mod request forum
thank you for that! i haven't yet, but i didn't really pursue it, etc. i will tho, i'd like to read it.
― Françoise, Laurel, and Hardy (K. Rrosé), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:37 (nine months ago) link
I may be getting off of e soon - I talked with my new primary care doctor about being unhappy with the pace of some of the physical changes in my transition, so she gave me a raft of options to think over including Depo-Provera and progesterone taken as (sigh) a suppository. And a friend of mine recommended asking if I can switch from spiro to Lupron, as it appears to offer much better results for a lot of transwomen.
― I don't get wet because I am tall and thin and I am afraid of people (Eliza D.), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 16:03 (nine months ago) link
I certainly don't _like_ gratuitous and egregious cruelty, I don't like when it gets rewarded. The Supreme Court can declare gratuitous and egregious cruelty constitutional if they like, but they can't ever make it OK.
I mean people can go to Hobby Lobby if those are the values they want to support, and I guess people do because Hobby Lobby is still in business. We go to JoAnn's. My hope is that in the long run people will find that gratuitous and egregious cruelty is not a good foundation for a business, no matter how delicious your chicken sandwiches may be, but it's a hope and not an inevitability.
The real frustrating thing to me is when one doesn't have a choice. Whole segments of the economy are, it seems to me, at base hostile to LGBTQ+ people, including home improvement and anything involving pickup trucks. God forbid our toilet breaks and we need a new ballcock for it. God forbid I need some furniture moved.
I was kind of surprised that my GP gave me pills instead of transdermal stuff. I guess I'm in reasonably good health, but I am over 40.
I know a lot of people just starting (as I am) get frustrated at the lack of changes. I'm just not sure what I'm expecting from the changes. People say things like mood, softer skin, different sexuality, redistribution of fat, but these are all abstract things, none of them cause any dysphoria for me, and if none of them happened I don't actually know if I'd be unhappy. The stuff I want to change - less male pattern baldness, less belly fat, (arguably and in a very complicated sense) my extremely male voice, is all stuff HRT won't do anything about.
If anything there's just this general feeling I have of being slightly out of balance hormonally. Being too quick to anger, too slow to tears. Honestly that's all I want out of HRT, is to be able to cry. I also see a lot of people in the US complaining about spiro and wishing they could take Cypro instead, particularly in terms of the physical changes.
I am still waiting for someone, anyone, to just blatantly not accept me. The most I get is hesitation and awkwardness, which is bad enough but which I can't really give people shit for, I don't think they're necessarily in control of their gut reactions to that extent.
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Wednesday, 9 October 2019 16:46 (nine months ago) link
i only know a bit of chu from reading her tweets and maybe some of her recent ~takes~ but just on that basis this review of her new book doesn't seem too surprising.
― j., Friday, 29 November 2019 02:35 (eight months ago) link
The nonbinary pronoun "they" has been named Merriam-Webster's word of the year.
The American English dictionary revealed that searches for the term have risen by 313% in the last year. The definition of "they" as a nonbinary pronoun was added to the three other separate definitions of the word in September.
― piscesx, Tuesday, 10 December 2019 17:58 (seven months ago) link
Still going in fits and starts but I guess I'm out to my brother, the admissions department of a major university and a faculty advisor so uhhhhhhhhhh
― You guys are caterpillar (Telephone thing), Tuesday, 14 January 2020 21:44 (six months ago) link
Congrats! "Fits and starts" is how this sort of thing usually goes as far as I can tell. :)
― revenge of the jawn (rushomancy), Tuesday, 14 January 2020 22:49 (six months ago) link
So it's Trans Day of Visibility and none of us are supposed to leave the fucking house, so that kind of sucks. In lieu of that I guess I'll just say it here: My name is Kate and I am a 43-year-old transgender woman. Whoever you are, whatever you're going through, you are not alone.
― Kate (rushomancy), Tuesday, 31 March 2020 15:50 (four months ago) link
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 31 March 2020 16:12 (four months ago) link
― karmic blowback for dissing pip and jane baker (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 01:43 (four months ago) link
Seen and respected Kate
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 02:13 (four months ago) link
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 02:21 (four months ago) link
Thanks y'all. I'd post a picture but IDK if I'm quite to that point yet!
― Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 02:29 (four months ago) link
that's great Kate : )
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 02:30 (four months ago) link
yo kate !!
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 1 April 2020 03:05 (four months ago) link
IDK if I'm quite to that point yet!
Go at your own speed, Kate. Even though it will be a special treat, we'll be patient, like good adults.
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 03:37 (four months ago) link
― Ok bloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 1 April 2020 15:36 (four months ago) link
missed this, Kate -- hello!
― gbx, Friday, 3 April 2020 02:52 (four months ago) link
hi everyone :)
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 3 April 2020 09:14 (four months ago) link
Hi Kate, you look gr8! :)
― Hey, let me drunkenly animate yr boats in about 25 to 60 days! (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 3 April 2020 09:14 (four months ago) link