Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed

So. You're discussing online pornography somewhere - perhaps irl, but more likely online. You mention a concern about coercion - effect of pornography on the brain - etc. Someone disagrees with you; they wave away your concern, and roll out an eloquent, slightly hackneyed panegyric to Freedom of Expression. Censorship would be worse, they say, although you hadn't suggested censorship.

Scenario two. You're discussing the middle east, and perhaps sharia law. Someone comes along with a praise of 'life's wholesome, natural pleasures', 'wine, women'; they become misty-eyed as they say how sad it is that some people, blinded by fanaticism, would seek to restrict these things. Their descriptions of worldly pleasures seem - slightly stiff? Slightly rote?

Scenario three. Subject is racial abuse. The by now familiar figure I've been portraying rolls up to tell you that 'However unfortunate it may be that some people feel offended by another individual's choice of words', censorship would still be worse, stifling the natural flow of free conversations. Again, you hadn't suggested censorship.

Does this type of person actually exist? I am describing three different people, who I have actually encountered over the last five years or so; but I mean, have I encountered a style, or set of ideas, that is bigger than these three people? If it does exist, is it fair to call it 'Creepy Liberalism'? Is there already a name for it?

I am unsure whether this thread is worth doing, because it being of interest to anyone apart from me depends on the type of person I'm thinking of actually existing. But still.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:06 (seven years ago) link

http://terryweaver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/choir.jpg

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:09 (seven years ago) link

seems like the common thread for this fellow is a conflation of legal permissiveness (along the axis of "freed of expression" vs "censorship") and moral/ethical endorsement of that thing? as in, they dont seem to understand that you can offer full throated opposition to something without at the same time calling for governmental/legal recourse in order to rectify it.

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:10 (seven years ago) link

i'm w/ u man. fuck free speech. xxp

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:10 (seven years ago) link

But yes, those people/person do exist. Why call it "creepy liberalism"? I haven't encountered any true liberals that have been this way, it has usually always been conservatives/libertarians or just plain ignorants.

Yes, there's a definite misunderstanding of what 'freedom of speech'/First Amendment refers to in the general public, and I even last week had to explain to someone how Kickstarter pulling a fundraiser for its content was not a violation of said amendment, but at this point I think the only way to solve that problem is to follow the example of the ending of Return of the Living Dead

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:11 (seven years ago) link

really the best way to reply to these clowns is just to quote the First Amendment, given how short it is.

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:14 (seven years ago) link

I think a better description of this attitude is "ignorant and/or uneducated"... obv. tho I don't think its cool to curtail free speech just because its not the government doing it. "Free Speech" has larger connotations than merely the purview of the first amendment.

This Is My Design, and I Used Helvetica (Viceroy), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:23 (seven years ago) link

viceroy otm

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:24 (seven years ago) link

but free speech isn't being curtailed if the government isn't preventing it. There's a reason why I can't just walk into my business and shout "EY, SUCK MY OLIVE-OIL SCENTED DICK K THX" and expect to still have my job the next day.

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:30 (seven years ago) link

like if your business removes your posts from the company e-bulletin board, it's lame, but while it's corporate censorship, really isn't a violation of free speech.

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:34 (seven years ago) link

most of these sound like early-20s white libertarian-leaning dude opinions

mh, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:34 (seven years ago) link

N.B.

Am aware that my OP there may look as if I'm trying to ridicule people I've disagreed with/make out that people who happened to disagree with me on said issues = weirdo.

I'm not - I do think the idea of free speech is a very important one.

Also: this was in a UK context, which may or may not be important.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:41 (seven years ago) link

Ryan:

seems like the common thread for this fellow is a conflation of legal permissiveness (along the axis of "freed of expression" vs "censorship") and moral/ethical endorsement of that thing? as in, they dont seem to understand that you can offer full throated opposition to something without at the same time calling for governmental/legal recourse in order to rectify it.

Yeah, that conflation of the legal and the ethical is definitely part of this style. I've wondered if there's a persecution complex at work here - person always seeing state oppression everywhere, but not in a clear-sighted way. That hunted, haunted psyche might be where the 'creepy' is coming from.

It may also be, as neanderthal says

I haven't encountered any true liberals that have been this way, it has usually always been conservatives/libertarians or just plain ignorants.

i.e. the hijacking of 'free speech' as an idea by people who are not really in full sympathy with it, or only want to instrumentalise it. Disjunction between the demeanour and the actual politics thus being the source of creepy.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:46 (seven years ago) link

you're harping on the lib vs conservative angle but Caring Way Too Much About False Instances of Censorship is a pleasure enjoyed equally by assholes of both orientations

ty based gay dead computer god (zachlyon), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 08:22 (seven years ago) link

Am aware that my OP there may look as if I'm trying to ridicule people I've disagreed with/make out that people who happened to disagree with me on said issues = weirdo.

Wellll, maybe just a little

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 08:26 (seven years ago) link

I feel that this group maybe intersects with the people who call anyone who criticizes any particular group "racist". Like, recently there was incident here in Finland where a local conservative politician posted some blatantly racist, eugenics-influenced comments on his Facebook profile, which unsurprisingly lead to people calling him a Nazi... And then a totally clueless celebrity radio host decided to chide in, saying that it was wrong to criticize the politician, because that's "racist against the Nazis", and he should be free to post whatever he wants.

But yeah, I think these kind of people generally fall into two groups, neither of which I'd call "liberal" in the political sense of the word:

1) Libertarians, who think that having political/civil rights equals being free to say whatever you want about any person or group with no consequences.

2) Conservatives, who twist liberal concepts to benefit their own goals. Racism debates such as the above, where anti-racism is condemned as a "form of racism too", are a particularly good example of this.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 08:44 (seven years ago) link

i suspect that an unquestioning defence of free speech without recognizing the complexities of edge cases is something that can only come from a position of privilege, ultimately

hang on i think i mean that "free speech" only really exists as a legal concept and that's okay and an important concept but it has never really been a trump card in any legal system, it feels simple-minded to adhere to it as such

Scenario two. You're discussing the middle east, and perhaps sharia law. Someone comes along with a praise of 'life's wholesome, natural pleasures', 'wine, women'; they become misty-eyed as they say how sad it is that some people, blinded by fanaticism, would seek to restrict these things. Their descriptions of worldly pleasures seem - slightly stiff? Slightly rote?

Certainly though cardamom, even if you don't care about the consumption of alcohol or equal rights for women, you surely must be appalled by sharia's strictures against music, right?

how's life, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:08 (seven years ago) link

I mean, this board is called I Love Music.

how's life, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:09 (seven years ago) link

fp

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:17 (seven years ago) link

This board is called "I Love Everything", though. So I assume we love the pleasures of flesh just as much as music.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:27 (seven years ago) link

Surely the free speech argument works in both directions here? If you have a problem with p0rn or sharia you're covered by the 1st amendment just as much as the other guy, no? I'm not saying you should have to have a debate about free speech in order to raise your concerns, but it might be a way to shut down arguments with idiots.

29 facepalms, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:31 (seven years ago) link

Rly we need the details and positions held during these arguments if this thread is to be any more than 'i talked to a bad man and another bad man' response 'oh no u talked to a bad man oh no'

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:53 (seven years ago) link

most of these sound like early-20s white libertarian-leaning dude opinions

Mostly this, although I've also heard some of them from ppl who were not young or white or dudes.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 11:00 (seven years ago) link

most of these sound like early-20s white libertarian-leaning dude opinions

― mh, Monday, July 1, 2013 10:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yah, not sure what exactly is novel about "creepy liberals"

xp

well if it isn't old 11 cameras simon (gbx), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 11:05 (seven years ago) link

@ darraghmac - I know, and my inability to supply more details kind of undercuts my question. I mean I can't even be sure I'm not remembering a strawman.

@ how's life - I wasn't in favour of sharia law at the time. It was more that of all the ways one might criticise it, this person's seemed to have something a bit odd about it.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 11:55 (seven years ago) link

but now you are in favor of sharia law, right?

call all destroyer, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:00 (seven years ago) link

Yeah, I knew what you were saying. I was just fucking around. xp

how's life, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:01 (seven years ago) link

xp Well, the mu'atizil school of ethics is interesting, but I can only access their ideas in translation

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:01 (seven years ago) link

Screw my spelling today. It's Mu'tazilah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27tazila

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:04 (seven years ago) link

gbx otm. liberals are often creepy.

Me and my pool noodle (contenderizer), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:08 (seven years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThrZ9-sS6aM

abcfsk, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:35 (seven years ago) link

Conservatives, who twist liberal concepts to benefit their own goals.

this sort of bad faith argument is so common on the right i wish it had a name. the general strategy is almost a reductio ad absurdum in which, say, some concept of fairness that leads the left to things like affirmative action is then the same idea that leads conservatives to decry affirmative action as "discriminatory." ("Blacks are the real racists because they talk about race so much," is another favorite one.)

the irony to all this is that it's an absolutely self-defeating gesture because while it's intended to push back against some imagined liberal hegemony, it's instead parasitic on it--there's really no such thing as contemporary conservatism beyond this automatic adolescent rebellion against the left and liberalism. you could almost say it takes place within the assumptions of liberalism in that notions of "social justice" and fairness are equally central but "twisted" into a parody version of themselves. i guess this is what happens when conservatism is unmoored from anything like tradition and replaces it with radical individualism/autonomy (ie, freedom from society).

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 13:35 (seven years ago) link

there's really no such thing as contemporary conservatism beyond this automatic adolescent rebellion against the left and liberalism

This is v. interesting

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:15 (seven years ago) link

it's an overstatement, but i think it applies at least in part to the "media" version of conservatism (talk radio, NRO, etc...)

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:15 (seven years ago) link

this is what i'd describe as football fan politics, more akin to cheering for a nebulous team, right or wrong, and it definitely has a leftist equivalent

Definitely. The bad faith characterisation aspect too.

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:18 (seven years ago) link

just came across an interesting passage from Aldous Huxley who defines being a partisan as "egotism at one remove"--a mechanism which allows you to indulge in just about any vice and call it virtue.

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:22 (seven years ago) link

there's also a strong element of the coopting of weighted language -- there are phrases that are commonly used, such as "gun control," which are relatively useless when used as intended because they bring up the baggage attached by groups against the concept

mh, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:26 (seven years ago) link

or, god help us, what people think "feminism" means

mh, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:26 (seven years ago) link

when the right invokes 'free speech' or 'racism' to undermine a common leftist position/belief, is that analogous in any way to the left evoking 'security' as a reason why eg the united states shouldn't use drone strikes. (bc they're undermining their own security by radicalizing more terrorists.) in both cases these aren't ideals that are generally associated w/ the political side and you suspect that maybe they're only being brought up as ideological concern trolling.

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 15:12 (seven years ago) link

i think it's fair game to address an opposition position and try to show that it fails on its own terms as long as you're honest in what you're doing

Mordy, doesn't it depend on whether the ideal is inherent in the original critique or just bolted on?

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 18:39 (seven years ago) link

Why call it "creepy liberalism"? I haven't encountered any true liberals that have been this way, it has usually always been conservatives/libertarians or just plain ignorants.

― Neanderthal, Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:11 AM (17 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Really? I see liberals (you know people who read the Guardian or the NYT) making comments like the ones mentioned in the OP very often, especially the third type. like if you followed the recent discussions around the EDL in the UK you'd see self identified "lefties" (ugh @ that term, but I use it specifically to differentiate from leftists) saying "well yeah the EDL are bigots but hey - free speech" or condemning antifash groups for confronting fascists instead of "engaging in reasoned debate" or some bullshit (also see the Tea Defence League thing or a typical Guardian CiF thread). Usually the people invoking free speech in this context aren't the ones who are affected by the bigotry in question, makes it easy.

My god. Pure ideology. (ey), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:00 (seven years ago) link

how do lefties vs leftists pls

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:01 (seven years ago) link

i mean i suppose people on all sides do it, I did when I was 19, but just didn't get why he picked that side in his description

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:03 (seven years ago) link

i assume "leftie" = kneejerk football fan leftists and "leftist" = anybody who holds left-leaning political views

lol fuckin splitters

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:09 (seven years ago) link

nah cos the former is a subsection of the latter? i mean, i am avowedly a leftist but i try hard not to be a leftie on the whole

nazis not smart imho

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Thursday, 17 September 2020 20:46 (four days ago) link

Devos must’ve been getting jealous of Barr get

this is governing for the lulz


Otm. Using the Civil Rights Act to troll, truly infuriating

not right at all (rob), Thursday, 17 September 2020 21:05 (four days ago) link

Sorry, weird abandoned post artifact there

not right at all (rob), Thursday, 17 September 2020 21:06 (four days ago) link

If only Hitler had gotten the memo. He spoke German ffs.

― hey, trust the fungus! (pomenitul), Thursday, September 17, 2020 1:39 PM (two days ago)

y'know, if Hitler had just been a bit less anti-semitic, he could have won the war

sarahell, Saturday, 19 September 2020 19:59 (two days ago) link

This might be my least favorite thread on ilx. Total non-issue at best, akin to collaboration at worst.

James Gandolfini the Grey (PBKR), Saturday, 19 September 2020 20:07 (two days ago) link

collaboration in what sense?

sarahell, Saturday, 19 September 2020 20:10 (two days ago) link

Calling out so-called liberals for their blatant hypocrisy and power-hoarding tendencies is now collaboration? Lol okay.

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Saturday, 19 September 2020 21:05 (two days ago) link

Like sorry for wanting people to not act like disingenuous assholes!

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Saturday, 19 September 2020 21:06 (two days ago) link

ohhh as in "collaboration" like in the phrase "collaborate with Nazis to commit genocide"? ... and not "collaborate on an interdisciplinary performance piece involving poetry, dance, and ambient electronica" ???

sarahell, Saturday, 19 September 2020 21:10 (two days ago) link

sorry i am dense and old at times

sarahell, Saturday, 19 September 2020 21:11 (two days ago) link

Sarahell you just made me lol very hard.

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Saturday, 19 September 2020 21:12 (two days ago) link

i am glad i am useful in some small way

sarahell, Saturday, 19 September 2020 21:39 (two days ago) link

When the revolution comes this will be the thread we end up hanging from

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Saturday, 19 September 2020 21:40 (two days ago) link

Collaboration in the sense that taking seriously concerns about the left/cancel culture silencing centrist/conservative views is in fact ignoring much more drastic concerns of the continued rise of the right-wing if not actually abetting it.

James Gandolfini the Grey (PBKR), Saturday, 19 September 2020 22:07 (two days ago) link

I am still confused who is collaborating with whom on this thread.

sarahell, Saturday, 19 September 2020 23:01 (two days ago) link

i read this thread mostly as a variant of "ok boomer" ... like it strikes me mostly as a generational shift of values and ethics and politics, which as a card-carrying middle-aged person, I am aware that I have to step back a bit and really think and listen because I have some of those older generation instincts.

sarahell, Saturday, 19 September 2020 23:05 (two days ago) link

Being old is bad not good and being young is good not bad iirc.

pomenitul, Saturday, 19 September 2020 23:07 (two days ago) link

Re-forming social norms around acceptable speech is really an attempt to reject and marginalize the ideas conveyed in such speech. I'm fine with making harmful ideas socially unacceptable by exposing them to ridicule, scorn, and shows of mass solidarity against them.

For me the major bright line that ought not be crossed, except in the most dire cases, is attempting to define speech into a criminal activity subject to incarceration. The hard right wing is far more likely to enter any openings in that direction and occupy that space.

The hard right are already actively testing strategies to use current civil rights laws to force every institution of learning that receives federal money in any form to allow fascists free access to propagate their ideas. They're gleeful at the thought that liberals will be gored by their own legislation. They may well succeed.

The old saw about fighting bad speech with better speech and bad ideas with better ones yields extremely uneven results and is a weak bulwark against fascism, racism, and oppression. But using the force of law to regulate political speech has dangers untold. There are no easy answers here.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 19 September 2020 23:32 (two days ago) link

I think most of the cancel culture events mentioned in this thread make leftists look like a bunch of morons, but sure let’s not talk about it on ilx because some impressionable kid might stumble upon this thread and turn into a fash

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Sunday, 20 September 2020 00:24 (yesterday) link

And I think most cancel culture events mentioned on this thread are a bare ripple in the fascist ocean lapping at the shores of this country.

James Gandolfini the Grey (PBKR), Sunday, 20 September 2020 00:37 (yesterday) link

PBKR otm, at this stage if you’re still whining about the left, just say that the fascists don’t bother you that much.

scampo italiano (gyac), Sunday, 20 September 2020 00:42 (yesterday) link

I don’t let my enemies dictate what i’m allowed to find annoying

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Sunday, 20 September 2020 00:42 (yesterday) link

Arguing politics right now is probably a bad move for me. Apologies. Be well everyone.

James Gandolfini the Grey (PBKR), Sunday, 20 September 2020 00:47 (yesterday) link

wait i am still confused whether PBKR is pro-cancel or anti-cancel ?

sarahell, Sunday, 20 September 2020 00:59 (yesterday) link

PBKR, do you not understand that the right has hi-jacked ideas of free speech to push fascist ideas into the realm of public debate and popularity, and that many so-called liberals have gone along with the hi-jacking of these ideas...and moved into realms of fascist speech policing in the process, namely the silencing of more radical voices on the left? That's what I see pretty much everywhere I go, on ILX in particular. It's like being an actual leftist is seen as 'not reasonable.'

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:02 (yesterday) link

Like a lot of conversation in this thread has recently revolved around liberals in power being complicit in these waves of fascism lapping at our shores.

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:04 (yesterday) link

And so if that isn't cool to you, then maybe think about the thread yr posting in and who you're calling a collaborator.

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:05 (yesterday) link

It would probably be advisable to have a forum called I Hate Fascism where we could check in everyday and tell other posters that we still don’t like Nazis in case anyone was wondering

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:33 (yesterday) link

PBKR, do you not understand that the right has hi-jacked ideas of free speech to push fascist ideas into the realm of public debate and popularity, and that many so-called liberals have gone along with the hi-jacking of these ideas...and moved into realms of fascist speech policing in the process, namely the silencing of more radical voices on the left? That's what I see pretty much everywhere I go, on ILX in particular. It's like being an actual leftist is seen as 'not reasonable.'

― healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Saturday, September 19, 2020 9:02 PM (fifty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

table, I think you are making the exact point I am trying (poorly, apparently) to make. I think we are in total agreement that the backlash against cancel culture is an insidious right wing ploy.

If this isn't the case, I apologize and will bow out.

James Gandolfini the Grey (PBKR), Sunday, 20 September 2020 02:03 (yesterday) link

so i'm late to this but uhh

Class reductionism is the supposed view that inequalities apparently attributable to race, gender, or other categories of group identification are either secondary in importance or reducible to generic economic inequality. It thus follows, according to those who hurl the charge, that specifically anti-racist, feminist, or LGBTQ concerns, for example, should be dissolved within demands for economic redistribution.

I know of no one who embraces that position. Like other broad-brush charges that self-styled liberal pragmatists levy against “wish-list economics” and the assault on private health insurance, the class reductionist canard is a bid to shut down debate. Once you summon it, you may safely dismiss your opponents as wild-eyed fomenters of discord without addressing the substance of their disagreements with you on policy proposals.

I'm going to say the big problem w/ this Reed excerpt is that he's basically accusing a position i see replicated all the time of not existing at all -- there are dozens of ways in which ppl who do not *intend* to replicate that logic do so in ways they don't even realize, before you get to the people who outright believe in class reductionism

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Sunday, 20 September 2020 03:05 (yesterday) link

not *accusing ... *Characterizing

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Sunday, 20 September 2020 03:05 (yesterday) link

I personally have not encountered "class-reductionist" activism in meatspace, and I used to go to *a lot* of pretty different types of actions, back when those were happening in meatspace. "class-forward", sure, that would be fair. the local Trots I no longer run with, for example (they are, like all local far-left formations I've encountered, tactically woeful and aesthetically alienating, and ironically incapable of change), are explicit about the ultimate demand being class solidarity and political representation by and of the working class (it's like...their entire deal at the end of the day), but are also *extremely* vocal about racism, trans rights, and other hypothetically "non-class" issues. you could, if you wished, accuse them of caring about these issues more because they undermine class solidarity than because they're a moral horror, but I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference in terms of actual behavior.

of course I'm sure you can find all kinds of mutations on twitter etc. but I purposely avoid that shit.

Simon H., Sunday, 20 September 2020 12:39 (yesterday) link

not to be unduly paranoid (or to make excuses) but I have long strongly suspected that at least a decent % of the most extreme Twitter eccentrics and loony hardmen are right-wing ops. it's not like it's hard to do.

Simon H., Sunday, 20 September 2020 12:43 (yesterday) link

I've definitely encountered it in meatspace, but many years ago, and continue to be surprised that it's still a tendency.

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Sunday, 20 September 2020 13:32 (yesterday) link

The idea that class shd take precedence over other “identity” concerns doesn’t just still exist, it’s pervasive on the white left and explains how people like Lee Fang get propped up by large audiences until they say something really obviously stupid about identity and ppl start to back away slowly from them — bc for many ppl they believe themselves to be “on the right side” w/r/t issues of identity but don’t see how their actions and advocacy run against the grain of people with different interests

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Sunday, 20 September 2020 18:55 (yesterday) link

The idea that class shd take precedence over other “identity” concerns doesn’t just still exist, it’s pervasive on the white left

otm -- the response to RBG's death brought out a lot of this yesterday. It definitely isn't doing much for progressive solidarity.

sarahell, Sunday, 20 September 2020 19:04 (yesterday) link

Looking at it purely as a white & left person, there's nothing more "pervasive" than having to live as a Black person in the USA on a daily hourly basis. Racial identity drives even deeper into one's existence here than class or gender and it is only the bland comfortableness of white identity that allows that fact to recede in importance in white perception.

The only rational purpose in elevating class politics and emphasizing class identity over racial identity in trying to remedy the many social ills is the wholly pragmatic argument, that the insensitivity of white Americans to white privilege is so difficult to overcome compared to their sensitivity to class privilege that an appeal to class solidarity can be used as a Trojan horse for initiatives to narrow racial disparities. iow, it is a fallback position that is achievable within the context of US electoral politics, even though it is a diversion from attacking the tap root of the problem.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Sunday, 20 September 2020 19:34 (yesterday) link

Seems like another round of being mad at some amorphous idea of “white left Twitter” - the only name referred to as thus far is Adolph Reed. Who is, uh, not white. Might be on Twitter though.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Sunday, 20 September 2020 19:55 (yesterday) link

i'm actually referring to people i know irl ... I don't keep up with the pundit class nearly enough

sarahell, Sunday, 20 September 2020 20:09 (yesterday) link

This seems like a useful reminder:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

pomenitul, Sunday, 20 September 2020 20:11 (yesterday) link

cops also don't give a fuck about the class status of black people (esp. men) when they are profiling "suspicious" or "threatening" behavior

sarahell, Sunday, 20 September 2020 20:24 (yesterday) link

It's definitely a tendency that I see all around me in academia and plenty of other radical spaces... probably because like me, many of the people in those spaces are white and grew up middle class, even if they're working class now.

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Sunday, 20 September 2020 22:21 (yesterday) link

Seems like another round of being mad at some amorphous idea of “white left Twitter” - the only name referred to as thus far is Adolph Reed. Who is, uh, not white. Might be on Twitter though.

― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Sunday, September 20, 2020 2:55 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol please. You want me to just list people’s names who do this?

Honestly that kind of shit is pointless anyway bc it’s specific actions, positions, ideological approaches that are the problem and as easy as it is to name certain ppl who embody this approach, cf red scare hosts or lee fang or whoever else, the pervasiveness of it is due to the fact it’s not about individual people being “bad actors” as much as it is the class-first approach being applicable to people who don’t even know they’re doing it in certain circumstances

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Sunday, 20 September 2020 22:52 (yesterday) link

Less 'names' than, like, actual tweets and evidence, but yeah. Otherwise it's pretty pointless?

as in, when you do name names, ie "Red Scare and Lee Fang" it's hardly a representative body. You can play that game with a million MORE clapemoji WOMEN clapemoji ICE clapemoji AGENTS liberals.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Sunday, 20 September 2020 23:11 (yesterday) link

Jacobin has a huge huge readership and does this shit ALL THE TIME

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Sunday, 20 September 2020 23:45 (yesterday) link

so first its no people, but when you name people, no it needs to be 'representative bodies' ad infinum

how about bernie sanders' actual platform punting on reparations, for one extremely perfect example

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Sunday, 20 September 2020 23:58 (yesterday) link

Jacobin certainly privileges class, but that's a pretty wide gap from there to Red Scare.

Which was a point I wanted to quote but was on my phone - there's a world between a complete disavowal of 'identity politics' and the 'precedence' of class. Like...

This seems like a useful reminder:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

― pomenitul, Sunday, September 20, 2020 3:11 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

cops also don't give a fuck about the class status of black people (esp. men) when they are profiling "suspicious" or "threatening" behavior

― sarahell, Sunday, September 20, 2020 3:24 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I have never encountered a leftist who would disagree with either of these posts? It's a weird stick with which to beat the left.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Sunday, 20 September 2020 23:59 (yesterday) link

no one said "major left platforms completely disavow identity politics", you're reversing the argument to make us the absolutists when it's the reed quote that asserts absolutely that no one prefers to prioritize class!

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, 21 September 2020 00:02 (three hours ago) link

so first its no people, but when you name people, no it needs to be 'representative bodies' ad infinum

how about bernie sanders' actual platform punting on reparations, for one extremely perfect example


Yes, when you're painting something as "pervasive on the white left" you should be talking about enough people to form something of a representative body.

Finding a handful of assholes and attacking an entire spectrum because of them (despite that entire spectrum having little to do with the assholes) is not particularly useful.

Sanders was bad on some things (though, uh, got some bad news about Biden and reparations) - but to take another body that has been name-dropped, Jacobin has published pieces calling for reparations IIRC?

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, 21 September 2020 00:06 (three hours ago) link

The idea that the left is primarily an agent in a class war, defined by economics, is about as uncontoversial as you can get. Identity politics are a minor part of mainstream left wing politics.

everything, Monday, 21 September 2020 03:33 (two minutes ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.