Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

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So. You're discussing online pornography somewhere - perhaps irl, but more likely online. You mention a concern about coercion - effect of pornography on the brain - etc. Someone disagrees with you; they wave away your concern, and roll out an eloquent, slightly hackneyed panegyric to Freedom of Expression. Censorship would be worse, they say, although you hadn't suggested censorship.

Scenario two. You're discussing the middle east, and perhaps sharia law. Someone comes along with a praise of 'life's wholesome, natural pleasures', 'wine, women'; they become misty-eyed as they say how sad it is that some people, blinded by fanaticism, would seek to restrict these things. Their descriptions of worldly pleasures seem - slightly stiff? Slightly rote?

Scenario three. Subject is racial abuse. The by now familiar figure I've been portraying rolls up to tell you that 'However unfortunate it may be that some people feel offended by another individual's choice of words', censorship would still be worse, stifling the natural flow of free conversations. Again, you hadn't suggested censorship.

Does this type of person actually exist? I am describing three different people, who I have actually encountered over the last five years or so; but I mean, have I encountered a style, or set of ideas, that is bigger than these three people? If it does exist, is it fair to call it 'Creepy Liberalism'? Is there already a name for it?

I am unsure whether this thread is worth doing, because it being of interest to anyone apart from me depends on the type of person I'm thinking of actually existing. But still.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:06 (seven years ago) link

http://terryweaver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/choir.jpg

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:09 (seven years ago) link

seems like the common thread for this fellow is a conflation of legal permissiveness (along the axis of "freed of expression" vs "censorship") and moral/ethical endorsement of that thing? as in, they dont seem to understand that you can offer full throated opposition to something without at the same time calling for governmental/legal recourse in order to rectify it.

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:10 (seven years ago) link

i'm w/ u man. fuck free speech. xxp

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:10 (seven years ago) link

But yes, those people/person do exist. Why call it "creepy liberalism"? I haven't encountered any true liberals that have been this way, it has usually always been conservatives/libertarians or just plain ignorants.

Yes, there's a definite misunderstanding of what 'freedom of speech'/First Amendment refers to in the general public, and I even last week had to explain to someone how Kickstarter pulling a fundraiser for its content was not a violation of said amendment, but at this point I think the only way to solve that problem is to follow the example of the ending of Return of the Living Dead

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:11 (seven years ago) link

really the best way to reply to these clowns is just to quote the First Amendment, given how short it is.

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:14 (seven years ago) link

I think a better description of this attitude is "ignorant and/or uneducated"... obv. tho I don't think its cool to curtail free speech just because its not the government doing it. "Free Speech" has larger connotations than merely the purview of the first amendment.

This Is My Design, and I Used Helvetica (Viceroy), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:23 (seven years ago) link

viceroy otm

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:24 (seven years ago) link

but free speech isn't being curtailed if the government isn't preventing it. There's a reason why I can't just walk into my business and shout "EY, SUCK MY OLIVE-OIL SCENTED DICK K THX" and expect to still have my job the next day.

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:30 (seven years ago) link

like if your business removes your posts from the company e-bulletin board, it's lame, but while it's corporate censorship, really isn't a violation of free speech.

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:34 (seven years ago) link

most of these sound like early-20s white libertarian-leaning dude opinions

mh, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:34 (seven years ago) link

N.B.

Am aware that my OP there may look as if I'm trying to ridicule people I've disagreed with/make out that people who happened to disagree with me on said issues = weirdo.

I'm not - I do think the idea of free speech is a very important one.

Also: this was in a UK context, which may or may not be important.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:41 (seven years ago) link

Ryan:

seems like the common thread for this fellow is a conflation of legal permissiveness (along the axis of "freed of expression" vs "censorship") and moral/ethical endorsement of that thing? as in, they dont seem to understand that you can offer full throated opposition to something without at the same time calling for governmental/legal recourse in order to rectify it.

Yeah, that conflation of the legal and the ethical is definitely part of this style. I've wondered if there's a persecution complex at work here - person always seeing state oppression everywhere, but not in a clear-sighted way. That hunted, haunted psyche might be where the 'creepy' is coming from.

It may also be, as neanderthal says

I haven't encountered any true liberals that have been this way, it has usually always been conservatives/libertarians or just plain ignorants.

i.e. the hijacking of 'free speech' as an idea by people who are not really in full sympathy with it, or only want to instrumentalise it. Disjunction between the demeanour and the actual politics thus being the source of creepy.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 03:46 (seven years ago) link

you're harping on the lib vs conservative angle but Caring Way Too Much About False Instances of Censorship is a pleasure enjoyed equally by assholes of both orientations

ty based gay dead computer god (zachlyon), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 08:22 (seven years ago) link

Am aware that my OP there may look as if I'm trying to ridicule people I've disagreed with/make out that people who happened to disagree with me on said issues = weirdo.

Wellll, maybe just a little

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 08:26 (seven years ago) link

I feel that this group maybe intersects with the people who call anyone who criticizes any particular group "racist". Like, recently there was incident here in Finland where a local conservative politician posted some blatantly racist, eugenics-influenced comments on his Facebook profile, which unsurprisingly lead to people calling him a Nazi... And then a totally clueless celebrity radio host decided to chide in, saying that it was wrong to criticize the politician, because that's "racist against the Nazis", and he should be free to post whatever he wants.

But yeah, I think these kind of people generally fall into two groups, neither of which I'd call "liberal" in the political sense of the word:

1) Libertarians, who think that having political/civil rights equals being free to say whatever you want about any person or group with no consequences.

2) Conservatives, who twist liberal concepts to benefit their own goals. Racism debates such as the above, where anti-racism is condemned as a "form of racism too", are a particularly good example of this.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 08:44 (seven years ago) link

i suspect that an unquestioning defence of free speech without recognizing the complexities of edge cases is something that can only come from a position of privilege, ultimately

hang on i think i mean that "free speech" only really exists as a legal concept and that's okay and an important concept but it has never really been a trump card in any legal system, it feels simple-minded to adhere to it as such

Scenario two. You're discussing the middle east, and perhaps sharia law. Someone comes along with a praise of 'life's wholesome, natural pleasures', 'wine, women'; they become misty-eyed as they say how sad it is that some people, blinded by fanaticism, would seek to restrict these things. Their descriptions of worldly pleasures seem - slightly stiff? Slightly rote?

Certainly though cardamom, even if you don't care about the consumption of alcohol or equal rights for women, you surely must be appalled by sharia's strictures against music, right?

how's life, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:08 (seven years ago) link

I mean, this board is called I Love Music.

how's life, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:09 (seven years ago) link

fp

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:17 (seven years ago) link

This board is called "I Love Everything", though. So I assume we love the pleasures of flesh just as much as music.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:27 (seven years ago) link

Surely the free speech argument works in both directions here? If you have a problem with p0rn or sharia you're covered by the 1st amendment just as much as the other guy, no? I'm not saying you should have to have a debate about free speech in order to raise your concerns, but it might be a way to shut down arguments with idiots.

29 facepalms, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:31 (seven years ago) link

Rly we need the details and positions held during these arguments if this thread is to be any more than 'i talked to a bad man and another bad man' response 'oh no u talked to a bad man oh no'

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 10:53 (seven years ago) link

most of these sound like early-20s white libertarian-leaning dude opinions

Mostly this, although I've also heard some of them from ppl who were not young or white or dudes.

Tottenham Heelspur (in orbit), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 11:00 (seven years ago) link

most of these sound like early-20s white libertarian-leaning dude opinions

― mh, Monday, July 1, 2013 10:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yah, not sure what exactly is novel about "creepy liberals"

xp

well if it isn't old 11 cameras simon (gbx), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 11:05 (seven years ago) link

@ darraghmac - I know, and my inability to supply more details kind of undercuts my question. I mean I can't even be sure I'm not remembering a strawman.

@ how's life - I wasn't in favour of sharia law at the time. It was more that of all the ways one might criticise it, this person's seemed to have something a bit odd about it.

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 11:55 (seven years ago) link

but now you are in favor of sharia law, right?

call all destroyer, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:00 (seven years ago) link

Yeah, I knew what you were saying. I was just fucking around. xp

how's life, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:01 (seven years ago) link

xp Well, the mu'atizil school of ethics is interesting, but I can only access their ideas in translation

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:01 (seven years ago) link

Screw my spelling today. It's Mu'tazilah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27tazila

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:04 (seven years ago) link

gbx otm. liberals are often creepy.

Me and my pool noodle (contenderizer), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:08 (seven years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThrZ9-sS6aM

abcfsk, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 12:35 (seven years ago) link

Conservatives, who twist liberal concepts to benefit their own goals.

this sort of bad faith argument is so common on the right i wish it had a name. the general strategy is almost a reductio ad absurdum in which, say, some concept of fairness that leads the left to things like affirmative action is then the same idea that leads conservatives to decry affirmative action as "discriminatory." ("Blacks are the real racists because they talk about race so much," is another favorite one.)

the irony to all this is that it's an absolutely self-defeating gesture because while it's intended to push back against some imagined liberal hegemony, it's instead parasitic on it--there's really no such thing as contemporary conservatism beyond this automatic adolescent rebellion against the left and liberalism. you could almost say it takes place within the assumptions of liberalism in that notions of "social justice" and fairness are equally central but "twisted" into a parody version of themselves. i guess this is what happens when conservatism is unmoored from anything like tradition and replaces it with radical individualism/autonomy (ie, freedom from society).

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 13:35 (seven years ago) link

there's really no such thing as contemporary conservatism beyond this automatic adolescent rebellion against the left and liberalism

This is v. interesting

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:15 (seven years ago) link

it's an overstatement, but i think it applies at least in part to the "media" version of conservatism (talk radio, NRO, etc...)

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:15 (seven years ago) link

this is what i'd describe as football fan politics, more akin to cheering for a nebulous team, right or wrong, and it definitely has a leftist equivalent

Definitely. The bad faith characterisation aspect too.

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:18 (seven years ago) link

just came across an interesting passage from Aldous Huxley who defines being a partisan as "egotism at one remove"--a mechanism which allows you to indulge in just about any vice and call it virtue.

ryan, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:22 (seven years ago) link

there's also a strong element of the coopting of weighted language -- there are phrases that are commonly used, such as "gun control," which are relatively useless when used as intended because they bring up the baggage attached by groups against the concept

mh, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:26 (seven years ago) link

or, god help us, what people think "feminism" means

mh, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 14:26 (seven years ago) link

when the right invokes 'free speech' or 'racism' to undermine a common leftist position/belief, is that analogous in any way to the left evoking 'security' as a reason why eg the united states shouldn't use drone strikes. (bc they're undermining their own security by radicalizing more terrorists.) in both cases these aren't ideals that are generally associated w/ the political side and you suspect that maybe they're only being brought up as ideological concern trolling.

Mordy , Tuesday, 2 July 2013 15:12 (seven years ago) link

i think it's fair game to address an opposition position and try to show that it fails on its own terms as long as you're honest in what you're doing

Mordy, doesn't it depend on whether the ideal is inherent in the original critique or just bolted on?

cardamon, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 18:39 (seven years ago) link

Why call it "creepy liberalism"? I haven't encountered any true liberals that have been this way, it has usually always been conservatives/libertarians or just plain ignorants.

― Neanderthal, Tuesday, July 2, 2013 5:11 AM (17 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Really? I see liberals (you know people who read the Guardian or the NYT) making comments like the ones mentioned in the OP very often, especially the third type. like if you followed the recent discussions around the EDL in the UK you'd see self identified "lefties" (ugh @ that term, but I use it specifically to differentiate from leftists) saying "well yeah the EDL are bigots but hey - free speech" or condemning antifash groups for confronting fascists instead of "engaging in reasoned debate" or some bullshit (also see the Tea Defence League thing or a typical Guardian CiF thread). Usually the people invoking free speech in this context aren't the ones who are affected by the bigotry in question, makes it easy.

My god. Pure ideology. (ey), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:00 (seven years ago) link

how do lefties vs leftists pls

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:01 (seven years ago) link

i mean i suppose people on all sides do it, I did when I was 19, but just didn't get why he picked that side in his description

Neanderthal, Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:03 (seven years ago) link

i assume "leftie" = kneejerk football fan leftists and "leftist" = anybody who holds left-leaning political views

lol fuckin splitters

dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Tuesday, 2 July 2013 21:09 (seven years ago) link

nah cos the former is a subsection of the latter? i mean, i am avowedly a leftist but i try hard not to be a leftie on the whole

why do you guys keep bringing up kamala and joe biden like this is an argument about them? no one here is trying to conflate "identity politics" (the conceptualization of which is more of a 'myth' than class reductionism to be real) with liberal politicians except the people trying to minimize the concerns of "identity politics" by conflating them with liberal politicians

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, 21 September 2020 18:09 (four months ago) link

I get that the left has a (much-discussed) concern w the ways "identity politics" are used to smuggle in neolib ideologies and no one I know denies that happens but those same ppl on the left seem completely unwilling to accept the notion that it works the other way too: that class reductionism to varying degrees minimizes the concerns of people who aren't white. again, the sanders' campaign which sees an outer horizon for class change dismissing reparations as a pipe dream is the firmest articulation of this tendency on the left you could ask for

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, 21 September 2020 18:13 (four months ago) link

the sanders' campaign which sees an outer horizon for class change dismissing reparations as a pipe dream is the firmest articulation of this tendency on the left you could ask for

High level politicians (president, governors, congressional reps and senators) will approach the idea of reparations for slavery and Jim Crow in much the same way that such politicians approached the idea of gay marriage, gingerly and with extreme caution, far more likely to give private than public encouragement, until a movement for reparations can display enough public sympathy and political muscle to indemnify those politicians who come out publicly in favor of it.

That's how US politics work on the practical level. Show them some strength and they'll let you clear the path and follow along a few steps behind you.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Monday, 21 September 2020 18:29 (four months ago) link

why do you guys keep bringing up kamala and joe biden like this is an argument about them? no one here is trying to conflate "identity politics" (the conceptualization of which is more of a 'myth' than class reductionism to be real) with liberal politicians except the people trying to minimize the concerns of "identity politics" by conflating them with liberal politicians

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, September 21, 2020 11:09 AM (thirty minutes ago)

otm.

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 18:42 (four months ago) link

and the "solidarity" imperative works both ways. Maybe this was just a fringe thing that I saw, but after the massive uprising after the Floyd shooting, there were a number of left dudes I'm friends with posting about how "BLM are corporate sell-outs" (like, hey, Maximum R&R for president). But none of these dudes were considering the option of "how about the left practice solidarity with a black-led coalition" ... not saying all white left dudes are/were of this opinion. Just that the people who were espousing this recalcitrance were white cis-dudes.

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 18:46 (four months ago) link

That might say more about the left dudes you’re friends with than “the left” or “left dudes”?

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, 21 September 2020 18:49 (four months ago) link

And, sorry if this is a tangent but, while not super immersed in activist groups, I am part of various groups for non-profit leaders and there is a lot of discussion and prominence being given to Equity and Inclusion, and centering marginalized voices, and putting those voices (and people) in positions of leadership. And that's mostly where I'm coming from with my criticism of "class-centered" activism and "class reductionism".

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 18:52 (four months ago) link

and i also realize that I live in one of the most leftist parts of the U.S. and there is definitely a bubble here that is often not reflective of the country as a whole, though, historically, we tend to be "ahead of the curve" lol

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 18:54 (four months ago) link

i wish those left-Twitter white cis-dudes would stop giving all us white cis-dudes a bad name.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Monday, 21 September 2020 18:55 (four months ago) link

i only see the ones on Facebook fwiw

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 18:55 (four months ago) link

(bows down. holds head in hands) worse, then. much worse.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Monday, 21 September 2020 18:57 (four months ago) link

Making sweeping judgements of a political spectrum based on your personal interactions with bloggers who live for the next Red Scare episode or crusty dudes with spiderweb tattoos who are still proud of booing Jawbreaker just seems incredibly misguided and pointless. The local DSA chapter was founded by a couple of 9/11 conspiracy theorists who had to be shunned and pushed out - at no point would it occur to anyone to suggest that Truthers are “pervasive” in the DSA or on the left, right?

It’s also what makes it seem like the not particularly good faith left punching that comes from liberals. Sanders didn’t back reparations - but the DSA does and it was an issue in terms of a Sanders endorsement. Which one represents “the left”? Do they offset?

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:08 (four months ago) link

crusty dudes with spiderweb tattoos who are still proud of booing Jawbreaker

how rude

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:12 (four months ago) link

crusty dudes with spiderweb tattoos who are still proud of booing Jawbreaker just seems incredibly misguided and pointless.

actually most of these dudes are into prog and analog synths and tube amps and have fairly decent hygiene but ... idk maybe we need to update the thread title to "Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism and Sweeping Judgments"

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 19:14 (four months ago) link

saying a particular ideological stance is pervasive within the left bloc of the country (millions of people) is not the same thing as making "sweeping judgements". I'd say its a substantial and tenacious stance for people (a minority? a majority? I couldn't say; but I would still say "substantial") i see discussing this stuff in many difft tiers: anecdotal, published in magazines, coming from (yes) more DIY trendy podcasts, on "the left"'s primary presidential candidate's platform, etc. I don't know how many more examples we need to give before you'll accept that "pervasive" is an appropriate word...but I think it is.

regardless of the degree to which it's infiltrated the left or is a misrepresentation of it or has always been there or whatever,

I find myself confronting situations where people suggest race and gender issues are overstated concerns on a pretty regular basis, even if they pay lip service to the idea that they are, of course, still relevant. now, if i was spending a lot of time around the liberal entrepreneurs who post weird graphs abt microaggressions on their IG stories all day as praxis, I might shift my argument. but im not, im spending it around a lot of people who i think are too willing to let concerns of social justice become an optics problem for their ongoing fantasy of convincing the white working class to vote D in more substantial numbers by pretending race no longer exists

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:24 (four months ago) link

If I can characterize the position further, it's not even that they're necessarily making a strategic argument abt winning elections; it's that theyre not even acknowledging or incorporating the above stated critique, even if to reject it, bc the convenient excuse of characterizing all efforts at orienting the conversation towards non-class related issues can be handwaved away as "liberal" identity politics and therefore an undermining conspiracy by neolibs

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:28 (four months ago) link

im spending it around a lot of people who i think are too willing to let concerns of social justice become an optics problem for their ongoing fantasy of convincing the white working class to vote D in more substantial numbers by pretending race no longer exists

exactly! glad it's not just me and my hypothetical crusty spiderweb tattooed friends

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 19:28 (four months ago) link

I also get the feeling that all the memes that are variants on "listen to black people!" are uh, partially referring to the pervasiveness of the handwaving

sarahell, Monday, 21 September 2020 19:30 (four months ago) link

The most leftward people winning elections are women and POC, and the DSA is radically inclusive and Bernie's voting coalition wasn't very white in 2020 and his great strength was with Latinx voters and children of immigrants.

"They're only concerned with the white working class" was a cudgel used to beat the left (and Sanders) in 2016 and after the election - but that was very obviously not the case. You know who actually concern themselves primarily with the WWC? Moderate Democrats like Claire McCaskill.

Someone like Adolph Reed doesn't reject identity, they disagree with some about tactics in furthering a socialist agenda. That's why, as he says, "class reductionist" is harmful in that it shuts down debate and camaraderie in favor of making the 'class reductionists' political enemies.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:43 (four months ago) link

again you're conflating who someone wants as a candidate with their stated ideological goals; i also wanted bernie to win the nomination. it doesn't mean i thought his platform was especially smart w/r/t race, and i think his loss in south carolina illustrates that ... he wasn't especially smart when it came to race. that there were ways to make his platform better on subjects that might have helped him cinch the nomination more readily. i think you could even argue, in an effort to look from the bottom-up, that it was this very *pervasive* tendency on "the white left" that allowed a candidate like bernie to get so far without doing more on that subject

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:49 (four months ago) link

in *advance* of his loss in SC

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:51 (four months ago) link

And part and parcel of this is that all party politicians to the left of center rely on the Black vote without ever doing much to talk to Black people or deal with the problems (often caused by white supremacist structures) within Black communities except by throwing small bits of money their way and saying some patronizing bullshit.

I don't know a single Black person who trusted Bernie to do anything for Black people, and that's a big fucking problem.

healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Monday, 21 September 2020 19:55 (four months ago) link

The best indicator of how poorly the US has handled Covid-19 is that a lot of conservatives are debasing themselves to the level where “look, it’s not *that much* worse than Europe” is meant to be a defense — we’re talking about a continent where they don’t have ice cubes!

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) September 28, 2020

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 29 September 2020 09:53 (three months ago) link

Lol at 8000 Europishes in the replies saying, ‘But we do have ice cubes!’

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 10:51 (three months ago) link

three months pass...

Is this the thread where people talk about Red Scare?

Lmao they did Red Scare pic.twitter.com/3E6SLzr6Hc

— Cletus Van Damme (@Callicleez) January 9, 2021

٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 9 January 2021 22:11 (one week ago) link

Yeah, they've been banning a lot of vocal Trump supporters, so...

Dan I., Saturday, 9 January 2021 23:24 (one week ago) link

It was an inactive account. I assume Twitter's banning spree involved looking at old reported tweets that they previously hadn't acted upon, which is... interesting

Fenners' Pen (jim in vancouver), Sunday, 10 January 2021 04:54 (one week ago) link

I mentioned it on the Chapo thread. honestly fuck 'em

stylish but illegal (Simon H.), Sunday, 10 January 2021 15:25 (one week ago) link

Khachiyan has been suspended before - trying to roll this into some kind of "now they're coming for the left" thing still seems like a stretch

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 10 January 2021 15:27 (one week ago) link

Can’t say it’s a great loss but weird to go after an inactive account and leave someone like Andy Ngo active and verified.

JoeStork, Sunday, 10 January 2021 18:08 (one week ago) link

oooof was not aware Ngo was still on there

stylish but illegal (Simon H.), Sunday, 10 January 2021 18:10 (one week ago) link

Ngo claims to be a journalist, which gives him more protection in general

Respectfully Yours, (Aimless), Sunday, 10 January 2021 20:29 (one week ago) link

ugh, seeing a lot of "First they came for the fascists" chat from people online today over this Parler thing

Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin), Monday, 11 January 2021 17:32 (one week ago) link

Those are people you should ignore for the rest of your life.

Jimi Buffett (PBKR), Monday, 11 January 2021 17:38 (one week ago) link

xp - you could respond with, "Actually, first they came for the paedophiles, the fascists were second, maybe they should have been first though, idk."

sarahell, Monday, 11 January 2021 18:02 (one week ago) link

The argument is "Who are Amazon/AWS to say what does and doesn't appear online? Isn't that a scary amount of power? What happened to an open Web? I don't agree with the views on Parker, but it sets a worrying precedent for what could be taken down next".

Then they start skirting ever closer to poppycock notions about how silencing far right views only drive them underground and make them stronger.

I find these views really troubling and puzzling, especially since they seem to be coming from educated liberal/left people I know. So I turn to ILX to make sure I'm not going completely mad here.

Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin), Monday, 11 January 2021 18:15 (one week ago) link

Disclaimer: reddit, but I found this to be an interesting discussion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/kv1m0k/cmv_the_power_held_by_amazon_twitter_etc_is_a/

pomenitul, Monday, 11 January 2021 18:16 (one week ago) link

It’s such specious bullshit. God forbid nazi ideology gets driven underground, better put it in the mainstream where we can keep an eye on it

The educated “liberal/left” people saying this shit are the people who will *actually* say nothing when they come for the socialists the Jews the trade unionists &c. Frankly, stupid cunts.

Yelp for gyros (wins), Monday, 11 January 2021 18:24 (one week ago) link

Ban the fascists and break up the monopolies are completely congruent beliefs if you’re on the left lol

scampish inquisition (gyac), Monday, 11 January 2021 18:42 (one week ago) link

xp the main argument (away from whether all views deserve to get aired or not) is the power Amazon etc have over free speech. but it still sounds like nonsense to me somehow

Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin), Monday, 11 January 2021 18:46 (one week ago) link

Ban the fascists _and_ break up the monopolies are completely congruent beliefs if you’re on the left lol


Exactly.

pomenitul, Monday, 11 January 2021 18:49 (one week ago) link

There's also the fact that leftists and radical people on the left have actually faced much of the brunt of censorship, banning, and job loss over the years. It's Going Down was banned from Facebook this summer, as were a number of other radical organizing groups. Discussion of BDS positions is outright banned at many universities. Steven Salaita is still driving a school bus.

They already came for the radical anarchists and Marxist and socialists, and anyone who doesn't know this hasn't been paying any attention.

Pere Legume (the table is the table), Monday, 11 January 2021 19:03 (one week ago) link

And more than that - all the “mysterious” deaths of high profile Ferguson protestors and organisers.

scampish inquisition (gyac), Monday, 11 January 2021 19:13 (one week ago) link

ugh, seeing a lot of "First they came for the fascists" chat from people online today over this Parler thing

― Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin),

The 'actually, didn't they already come for the paedophiles first and you said fuck all mate?' line from Sarahell seems a good response?

Otherwise, I'd go down the path of incitement, planning violence, yelling fire in cinema, but also protection of the individuals because if they're not banned then they'll do these things in full view and get picked up by law enforcement anyway so actually its preventing them coming for the fascists its for their own protection

anvil, Monday, 11 January 2021 20:51 (one week ago) link

Absolutists are always, ALWAYS, smoothbrained. Because they're not absolutists at all just ask them one questions and it falls apart

anvil, Monday, 11 January 2021 20:54 (one week ago) link

Ugh been having the “driving them underground will only make them stronger” stupid ass argument with someone I otherwise like and care about and it’s so aggravating.

Cutting off someone’s leg will only make them run faster. It’s just this appealing sounding quasi-paradoxical thing that means nothing. It’s Star Wars as politics. We have actual historical evidence that the opposite is true.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 11 January 2021 22:21 (one week ago) link

yes, it's a silly argument. the more that alt-right, Q, etc. stuff can be limited to 8chan and off of things like facebook and twitter the better, as it limits the exposure of at-risk boomers

Fenners' Pen (jim in vancouver), Monday, 11 January 2021 22:32 (one week ago) link

You could even say it ought to be treated like… a virus.

pomenitul, Monday, 11 January 2021 22:33 (one week ago) link

There's also the fact that leftists and radical people on the left have actually faced much of the brunt of censorship, banning, and job loss over the years. It's Going Down was banned from Facebook this summer, as were a number of other radical organizing groups.

otm!

sarahell, Tuesday, 12 January 2021 19:19 (one week ago) link


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