privilege as a meme

i wasn't saying rich people weren't bigoted but just like, i don't know, the okc tumblr sexist dudes seemed to be misogynistic because they were embittered... their sense of being underprivileged, because unattractive, made their male privilege more attractive to them, and *this* is what is kind of, er, grotesque about their attitudes.... they are reactionaries.

hmm @ darragh. hmmmmmmm.

you're messing with me, right? cuz individual experience is endlessly variable, while demographics realities are generally fixed (at any given moment, anyway).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXShit8aEi0

yeah i definitely agree with you contenderizer: it is impossible, from the outside, to say what someone's experience has been like, even if you can surmise that they have benefited from various forms of institutional privilege. that's the main thing that i have been trying, ineptly, to say on this thread.

i'm not, contends, but i spose it depends on whether we're discussing a rule for

(i) justification of behaviour we revile normally but cheer on when the target is someone we've decided (in our perfection) is an overprivileged group

or

(ii) yknow a way to behave in general

xp no one is saying that "attractive" people don't benefit from certain privileges the problem is people itt equating them to institutional oppressions that carry a history and a body count (able-bodiedness and psychological trauma are usually considered actual oppressions, not rly on the same level as "not hot" or "likes star trek too much")

capital-P Privilege vs privilege, if you will, idk

yeah, but i think it is important to note -- not that you are debating this -- the subjective pain caused by different types of experiences is impossible to quantify. so, like, some straight man's experience of being not-hot might be just absolutely devastating to them, and it might be unfair to say that that experience is invalid, or that that pain isn't as real as the pain felt by a woman, who might face more pressure from society to be hot, but is nevertheless able to deal with it much more constructively, for whatever reason.

but also, just straight up bullying faced by groups like the obese, or people with speech impediments, or whatever, IS a kind of abuse, and can be rather acute. i don't know: these things are harder to politicize, but they're real.

and to be completely honest fedoras of okc is literally the only thing i can remember where this discussion would even be relevant, i can't remember ever seeing (even on tumblr!) a privileged person being treated like shit if it wasn't in response to something shitty that they did first

i get you zach, that makes sense. "institutional oppressions that carry a history and a body count" is a v good way of characterizing the distinction.

was slip-sliding in my mind from the specific kind of privilege that's at issue in this thread to unearned privilege in general

the "body count" thing is a fairly common marker ime

yeah, i shouldn't need the reminder, but it's late, the seas are high

maybe i can't parse what here is all strictly american or w/e, is that a thing here

i agree it's dangerous to conflate those two types of privilege. but i wish there was a way to at the same time be sensitive to both, and also not conflate them.

what's the huge value in distinguishing btwn the two, from the POV of the individual who feels they're experieng the oppression?

Guys whose dads didn't watch football with them.

great thread

love seeing elmo and mordy agree about something even for a minute

what's the huge value in distinguishing btwn the two, from the POV of the individual who feels they're experieng the oppression?

the political dimension. the oppression of (supposedly) "ugly" people by a society that unfairly favors the (supposedly) "attractive" may be a very real thing, but it's hard to combat or frame in political terms. it has no body count, and the groups involved have no organizational structure or cultural commonality. it's hard to draw a connection between this sort of entitlement/oppression and larger institutional systems. therefore, it doesn't make sense to construct our framing of political "privilege" to include this sort of thing. not at this point, anyway...

xp

and i'm not saying that bullying doesn't suck for people and that it's a great way to go, but i can tell you as someone who was bullied more than most kids as a pubescent and as someone who has dealt with extreme often-body-shame-related depression, i still have it way easier than a lot of people i know! call me ugly and maybe i'll still feel bummed out but tomorrow i still won't get rejected from the job because of my name on the resume, still won't suffer sexual harassment every day there, still not get stopped and frisked on the walk home.

my being bullied doesn't come as an addition or as a factor in other bigger aspects of my potential shit-taking, it wasn't the same for me as kids who were bullied for being gay, for being disabled, for being a person of color, for being fat (which many people including me do consider an oppression), etc. i agree that invisible disorders can make the distinction harder, but again, there's rarely any of these situations in which people are shamed/bullied for only the way they dress or their lack of social grace. and frankly having suicidal depression still doesn't mean people don't have the right to give you shit after you do something racist or sexist or etc

*still won't

lol contendo i'm sure there's an Ugly Dudes Anonymous group somewhere on the internet

i remember a tumblr where a dude was saying how oppressed he was because he had a "small white dick"

lol contendo i'm sure there's an Ugly Dudes Anonymous group somewhere on the internet

yeah, and i'm sure it links directly to a hundred misandry blogs :(

a "small white dick"

sounds like a tinned delicacy

A few years ago I saw a man being banned from a grocery store because it had a no big bags policy and he wouldnt leave his bag at the counter. He was not cooperative so the police came and he made an example of me and pointed out I had a really big bag in the store and he said THIS IS ALL BECAUSE IM A GAY WHITE MAN! I'm not sure where this fits in I'm just reminded of it.

i haven't slept in 4 days and now regret everything i posted here.

Posts that effortlessly sum up the spirit of ilx

yup!

queeft

the problem with the MRAs are that they blame feminism and women for their unhappiness/oppression and are misogynists. i don't doubt them for a second when they say their lives suck, they feel unattractive, they don't know how to interact with women, they feel oppressed, etc. the issue is that self-pity is really unappealing, as is misogyny, so it's easy to ignore/disdain them. but i think they are suffering, for what it's worth. they aren't an oppressed group, but as individuals they are dysfunctional, and that must totally suck. i don't really know what to do with that knowledge though.

repress it and watch television

no one is going to tell you not to have compassion for whoever you want to have compassion for, it's a question of whether or not your standards should be shared by everyone else

I have compassion for all kinds of shitty people who do bad things but I support the right of tumbles to make fun of men's rights activists

Haha tumbles. That's my next cat name

"tumbles" like it was some kind of blog clown

Otm!

men's rights tumbles

i someone should add the option to vote "tumbles" for the "what to you call your significant other" poll.

We are going to have a little review session now, because it seems like this totally great link has already slipped everyone's mind. YOU MIGHT BE EXPERIENCING SOME UNEARNED ADVANTAGES IF THE FOLLOWING ARE MOSTLY OR FREQUENTLY TRUE FOR YOU.

1. I can, if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area that I can afford and in which I would want to live.

3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

6. When I am told about our national heritage or about civilization, I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods that fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can deal with my hair.

10. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

11. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

12. I can swear, or dress in second-hand clothes or not answer letters without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

13. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

14. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

15. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

16. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color, who constitute the worlds' majority, without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

17. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

18. I can be sure that if I ask to talk to "the person in charge" I will be facing a person of my race.

19. If a traffic cop pulls me over, or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

20. I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

21. I can go home from most meetings or organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.

22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.

23. I can choose public accommodations without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

24. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help my race will not work against me.

25. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.

26. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in flesh color that more or less matches my skin.

ADVANCED EXERCISE: You may also want to re-read, this time substituting "sex" or "sexual preference" or "gender performance" for the word "race" in some places it appears. If you think of other things to substitute, answers on a 3x5 card at the end of class.

27. the "flesh" colored crayon looks like my uncle dan

oh god, the memories, they're coming back

thank you again, io

"flesh-colored" sounds so macabre.

I don't know if that's a zing or a hi-5 but you're welcome.

hi-5

but really I was referring to your link/list, the DN is just a bonus

Oh, link: http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html AGAIN.

Some of those are really fucking stupid and myopic in their own ways. And some of them can be quite easily flipped around. But in the aggregate, sure, fine.