privilege as a meme

yeah it's not about the right to use it because it's not supposed to be a pointed takedown, but is better standing as a demand for self-critique from every individual within a group.

I agree with this, but this is often how it's employed, that was sort of my initial point. this goes on lex's xpost too, i agree, lex, i'm not trying to antagonise here, i do think that misuse is quite common though and is damaging.

Everyone can use it. It depends on the context of the situation. LG could legitimately question the privilege of a British person who dismisses the reality of prejudice against Irish people, for example.

Of course, but these contexts aren't always clear, and it's used online quite a lot which seems even more risky.

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege" - surely the reasons for these prejudices or views are all potentially quite different?

yeah it's not about the right to use it because it's not supposed to be a pointed takedown, but is better standing as a demand for self-critique from every individual within a group.

This is the most succinct and best way of putting it that I've seen so far.

if this usage has academic roots i would say that's at least in part a result of more diversity within Higher Education, i.e. non white middle class dudes having to challenge long-ingrained modes of thought/speech

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege"

because privilege isn't so much a thing as a relation. it comes directly out of the work of people like Foucault arguing that power relationships are never monolothic but always the product of these sliding scales.

i guess that's always going to be vulnerable to simplification because real life is v. complex whereas pontificating on Facebook is pretty simple

^ (re: foucault)

isn't this kind of a problem with the word itself? i mean doesn't this mean words like "racist" or "sexist" or "prejudice" are more effective in specifically targeting somebody's views or what they say and why it's misguided or based on their own blind spots?

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 5:36 AM (1 minute ago)

i think privilege does have the kind of specificity you ascribe to words like "racist" and "sexist". it just describes a somewhat different thing. i mean, one of the most insidious forms of privilege is that which considers itself not special, but normal - the privilege to see one's own culture and views as ordinary to the point of universality, and to see any deviation from that as notable "difference". this encourages a sort of blindness among those so privileged, a blindness to the limited (and rather special) circumstances that shape their perceptions and understandings. it may be useful to call attention to this when the privileged seem to forget that they can't really speak for "people in general".

also, privilege is frequently expressed in a sense of entitlement. in conversation, the privileged often feel entitled to chip in with their two cents, even when they have much less actual experience with the issue in question than others. they are reassured by their privilege (and the license it so often grants them) that their ideas will be useful and should be heard. it may be useful to check this tendency, especially when certain voices threaten to drown out all others.

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege" - surely the reasons for these prejudices or views are all potentially quite different?

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:09 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

privilege more describes how power is always relational and context dependent based on the parties. privilege describes the differentials inherent in relationships between people

I remember in college I had to take a race and feminism class to get my degree and it was pretty eye opening. I always thought I was a good progressive liberal, but never really thought hard about what life was like for people not white or male. It wasn't really built around "white privilege" though, more like, here's how life can be different for other people in our society.

I feel like pointing fingers at people for being priveleged isn't really all that helpful, as in people generally don't like being made into some sort of "booger man" for all the ills in society when the privileges they do have is as much an uncontrollable circumstance of birth as being discriminated against. It's hard to figure out without talking to people (pretty intimately) about how their lives are different, and those types of conversations don't happen all that often. Screaming PRIVILEGED! kills an important potential dialogue imo.

Of course, but these contexts aren't always clear, and it's used online quite a lot which seems even more risky.

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:09 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

i don't think it's as risky as you make it out to be, frankly! especially on a place like ilx where it's a core of posters who do share a lot from their personal lives and about whom we all know a great deal. but even outside of ilx, i think you can glean a lot about a person posting on the internet just by the /way/ they're framing something, the language they use, the hidden assumptions present in their text

"booger man"

Okay, I was waiting for something worth saving to come out of this thread. Thank you, Spectrum.

i remember when you could kick a ball in the street without having anyone call attention to your position of relative privilege

i don't think it's as risky as you make it out to be, frankly! especially on a place like ilx where it's a core of posters who do share a lot from their personal lives and about whom we all know a great deal. but even outside of ilx, i think you can glean a lot about a person posting on the internet just by the /way/ they're framing something, the language they use, the hidden assumptions present in their text

yeah fair enough, perhaps i'm projecting my own unease onto others.

xpost no need to be personal about it, i'm not trying to defend any positions of privilege.

i remember when you could kick a ball in the street without having anyone call attention to your position of your booger

you'd be using a shoehorn to make it the term used on ilx as i've seen it.

Hold up here now - I am prepared to believe that lag8n's being straight forward with the initial question, that there are places where privilege functions as a straightforward "I Win". Maybe I've been lucky, I've only seen that a few times, far less than I've seen people yammering about how privilege is used as a putdown. My advice is not to read these blogs.

But if there are these places, ILX is surely to god not one of them - the very last thing that happens when someone calls out privilege here is that anyone goes "ah no fair point I'll switch to listening mode"

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege" - surely the reasons for these prejudices or views are all potentially quite different?

Well yeah - again perhaps a sheltered life, but I've never seen anyone get called out for unmodified privilege, it's always along a specific axis.

But if there are these places, ILX is surely to god not one of them - the very last thing that happens when someone calls out privilege here is that anyone goes "ah no fair point I'll switch to listening mode"

heh that's a very fair point!

even outside of ilx, i think you can glean a lot about a person posting on the internet just by the /way/ they're framing something, the language they use, the hidden assumptions present in their text

i did make the point that things like religion/sexuality/background etc, these just aren't on view, especially IRL.

Well yeah - again perhaps a sheltered life, but I've never seen anyone get called out for unmodified privilege, it's always along a specific axis.

it's usually unmodified ime.

also as an aside, isn't it possible people behave in a way that transcends their background, positively or negatively?

You are calling for ppl to do exactly what the exercise of "checking [your] privilege" is designed to do. You just don't want to call it that, for...some reason?

Because IME I've only seen it used as an inflammatory pejorative, and not for that purpose at all.

My experience is that (done right, and someone will always be doing it wrong somewhere on the internet), discussing privilege can go softer than sexism and racism - even if you start with "that's racist" it turns into "You're racist" and then it's all about the sacred mysteries of their inner soul; "You're displaying white privilege" can be taken as a criticism of the circumstances that have shaped the target, and gives them an out for acknowledging it and deflecting away from themselves.

Not that making someone saying dumb things on the internet comfortable is necessarily society's greatest purpose, of course.

"You're displaying white privilege" is an appallingly smug and counterproductive way of making a point.

It would genuinely be less insulting to call someone a racist.

seems fine to me. more specific.

no way is that more insulting than calling someone a racist.

Yeah I was joking about that bit, but I still think "white privilege" is an unhelpful way of putting it.

Oh for real? Do you suggest that the exact same point just be made with different words?

i'm gonna attribute that to a difference across the pond xp

dayo, race, sexuality, gender, social class, religion, upbringing, schooling, i'm sure there are plenty other reasons somebody can be privileged over another person. i'm trying not to be restrictive about my definition at all.

i am decidedly non-dayo privileged :(

Because IME I've only seen it used as an inflammatory pejorative, and not for that purpose at all.

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:38 AM (11 seconds ago)

here on ILX, i've occasionally had my privilege called out. the context of the usage has ranged from enlightening engagement (nitsuh, surprise) to vitriolic bullying (ahem...), but i chalk that up more to vagaries of character than any basic deficiency in the world or concept. some people will abuse any tool you give them.

Oh for real? Do you suggest that the exact same point just be made with different words?

Yes, basically. If you want someone to take your point on board it's better to make it in a way that isn't immediately going to put them on the defensive.

some tools are also easier to abuse, surely? xpost

But as soon as those words become identified as being commonly used to make this same unwelcome (to the listener) point, they'll be stigmatized too. Do we then change to a new set of terms?

I mean this isn't even an argument, this is people saying, the point that these words are used to make is unwelcome.

Okay, fine, "Do you think you might be showing some white privilege?" vs "Do you think that might be a bit racist?". There's ways to make the same point which are even gentler, but again there's a balance between that and "how much time do I want to spending considering the feelings of the guy defending the golliwog he had as a kid?"

this is the thread of missing ahem...

i think there's a problem in assuming any given word or phrase has the power to make a person think the way you want them to think. you can't, even when it's something important at stake like having equal rights. all you can do is put yourself out there and hope people will listen. the listener is one the making the choice to listen, and if you act like that's not the case then you're going to get push back.

all i want to know is, if i do the dishes and take out the trash all week, can i borrow the car on Friday night?

this thread is pretty depressing and dumm tbh

despite my internet glibness i'm pretty aware of my privilege and actually use the term about myself all the time irl. it's obviously a vital lens to see the world through and understanding that your experiences and perspectives aren't universal is pretty crucial to civilized conversation with anyone smart who's out of undergrad. i m/l agree with the good guys/gals itt

the only time i *rme* a little at "privilege" is when it's used (exclusively on the internet ime, which i guess is why noted anti-feminist lagoon started this thread) not as an eye-opener but as a trump card, later in the conversation rather than earlier. i completely acknowledge that this is *plays world's smallest violin* but sometimes people who are privileged and are aware of their privilege and have made that known might come to a different good-faith conclusion, after careful consideration, than someone else. and that's OK sometimes as long as you keep in mind that your privilege may have influenced your thinking; it doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong or that your perspective is automatically invalid - its context and how it came to be just have to be understood

ok, this thread.

that's what I'm sayin

so just for the record i don't think "misuse is common", it's not an epidemic or anything and i don't feel oppressed

i mean

tbh this is the sort of thread that makes me realise why some people on the ~social justice internet~ are assholes about the word, it's borne out of pure frustration

you explain what privilege is, you explain that it's quite simple and it's not designed to be an insult, and that it's rooted in power relations not a judgment on you personally, and yet people - usually pretty privileged people - just go on and on and on trying to discredit the entire concept. and it's like y'know what fuck you it's not actually up to you to hijack or dismiss this concept.

and it's totally okay for people to be a bit "huh, what" when they first come across ideas like intersectionality and privilege etc etc because guess what that's our educational privilege that enables us to throw them around like they're nothing, but the pig-headed insistence that they're fundamentally unhelpful concepts deserves absolutely nothing more than an eyeroll

^ gets it

ok, this thread.

― ampersand cooper black (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 2:07 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's like...EXACTLY like every other thread where str8 white men (ALWAYS str8 white men, sometimes str8 white women) are faced with the concept of privilege and realise their assumptions might be a tiny bit challenged or that they might have to SIT THE FUCK DOWN for once

wait stop you're blowing my straight white mind, I might have to sit down

checking one's privilege is REALLY EASY to do and not a thing that should make you feel oppressed. it's like, idk, proof-reading to check that something you've written makes logical sense.

pretty sure lag**n orchestrated this thread as some kind of performative commentary of privilege in action

http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/4067210/2/stock-photo-4067210-red-and-white-checked-pattern.jpg