privilege as a meme

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feel like the concept privilege is getting a lot of burn recently, fundamentally its for sure important for understanding society and so on, but particularly itt im more interested in how something gets chewed up by the internet and people, its interesting how the blog/social network era has popularized academic gender/queer/etc thinking which is for sure the pipeline that brought us privilege, as ideas spread they naturally become broader and i think at some point start to lose their power and degrade, you can see the seeds of this in totemic manner many regard privileges illuminating and deconstructive powers as well as its cut and paste employment as a societal master key

anyway what do you think

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:32 (seven years ago) link

Educate yourself!

The last of the famous international Greyjoys (Nicole), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:32 (seven years ago) link

haha what

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:33 (seven years ago) link

Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin privilegium law for or against a private person, from privus private + leg-, lex law

But I'm having so much foehn! (Michael White), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:34 (seven years ago) link

That was a joke, all of the social media social justice kids use "Educate yourself!" at least once in any sort of discussion about privilege. xp

The last of the famous international Greyjoys (Nicole), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:35 (seven years ago) link

lol i am clearly not deep enough in the privilege game, i should educate myself

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:35 (seven years ago) link

it's easier to spell than kyriarchy

life went on, sadly (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:36 (seven years ago) link

it's the favored term of tumblr intellectuals

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:37 (seven years ago) link

It means "shut up white straight man" on ilx otherwise i got nothin

rust in pieces (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:38 (seven years ago) link

In its deference to classical Greco-Roman etymology, kyriarchy is deeply suspect as a term.

But I'm having so much foehn! (Michael White), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:40 (seven years ago) link

how to monetize privilege?

buzza, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:41 (seven years ago) link

the word is used by too small a group of people not to have a ring of hypocrisy.

Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:41 (seven years ago) link

And I'm sad I wont get to see nostalgic and sentimental accounts about the hijinks of the tumblr itelligentsia in 2089. "It was a golden age."

But I'm having so much foehn! (Michael White), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:42 (seven years ago) link

"It was a golden age. RT if you agree!!"

Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:43 (seven years ago) link

"Your father and I were actually sat at computers for the great gay marriage RT of 2013."

Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:43 (seven years ago) link

In its deference to classical Greco-Roman etymology, kyriarchy is deeply suspect as a term.

― But I'm having so much foehn! (Michael White), Tuesday, April 9, 2013 2:40 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i get the need for the term but yeah 'rule by rulers' is p funny

goole, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:44 (seven years ago) link

It means "shut up white straight man"

*insert punchline*

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:44 (seven years ago) link

as ideas spread they naturally become broader and i think at some point start to lose their power and degrade

yeah there might be some irony here when conceptual words intended to pull the reader off guard or solicit thought in a Derridean sense become catchphrases that slide across the brain with nary a quibble

life went on, sadly (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:44 (seven years ago) link

so i have long thoughts on this cause i somehow found myself in a nexus of people who have a foot in both the world of radical activism ("yo white dude who keeps talking over everybody else, can you step back and let somebody else with a diff perspective get a word in") and the Tumblr Privilege Rabbit Hole ("yo check your anthropocentric privilege i can love trees carnally")

i will write them here later, prob when this thread has become a 478 post clusterfop

hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:45 (seven years ago) link

i think the "privilege model" of discussing inequality is important, and worth perpetuating, even if the finer nuances get ironed out with casual use

ampersand cooper black (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:47 (seven years ago) link

i'm sitting out of this one. i don't have enough FP's to spare.

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:48 (seven years ago) link

I have seen it a lot in blog-comment clusterfucks as a kind of conversation ender/nuclear option. Recently saw it used this way against a dad blogger who was basically saying "I work very long hours and spend the rest of my time on childcare and house tasks. Why am I not referred to as a 'working dad'." And it was a pretty lighthearted, non grudgy column in tone. Somehow his "privilege" made this point invalid because working moms have it worse. Maybe it struck too close to home but I was bothered by this.

Not generally against the idea of privilege or discussing/checking privilege, just don't like it as a neutralizer.

--808 542137 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:49 (seven years ago) link

i mean i guess in brief if you're using sociologically meaningful language that actually applies to people from communities that face unique categories of oppression, the way some people use otherkin notions to explore trans/queer identity, it's one thing. but if you're using it because you think you're a purple pony inside and why won't society stop oppressing you for being a purple pony in the body of a straight white dude, you are first against the wall. to an extent.

hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:49 (seven years ago) link

i think the "privilege model" of discussing inequality is important, and worth perpetuating, even if the finer nuances get ironed out with casual use

― ampersand cooper black (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, April 9, 2013 3:47 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah i agree tho i didnt intend this thread as a value judgement either way particularly, maybe more privilege watching, like bird watching

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:50 (seven years ago) link

hmmmm.

Nhex, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:51 (seven years ago) link

"I work very long hours and spend the rest of my time on childcare and house tasks. Why am I not referred to as a 'working dad'.

how about "single parent," does that cover it?

ampersand cooper black (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:57 (seven years ago) link

post yr privilege fb macros here

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:58 (seven years ago) link

he wasn't a single parent but I don't really want to get into the argument, I just don't think a hardship is invalidated by a harder hardship

--808 542137 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:59 (seven years ago) link

obv there are positions of privilege based on sexuality, gender, race, social class, and beyond, but it then seems hard to accept that the word is used sort of on a sliding scale by someone who faces oppression due to one of those statuses, or two of them, or whatever. i mean, when does one person safely know that they are speaking from a position of complete lack of privilege? even among the same race or sexuality somebody would probably say "well wtf would you know", wouldn't they? it seems like a quest for authenticity of oppression, not sure where that line of thinking ends.

i feel like people should be challenged to check the validity and fairness and logic of what they're arguing or what they believe, not their right to say anything at all given their background. i mean surely if someone is speaking in a way that's blinded by privilege then their views can be taken to task?

Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:00 (seven years ago) link

like this column i think is pretty emblematic of popular privilege discourse 2013 http://jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admit-that-hating-men-is-a-thing-will-you-stop-turning-it-into-a-self+fulfilling-prophecy

its quite good at what it does imho and could be useful if it reached the right eyeballs in helping people understand where feminism is coming from, but on the other hand its pretty rote and doesnt particularly radiate passion for the subject matter, and this sort of thing just always rings a little hollow:

It's not easy to swallow your own privilege—to admit that you're a Fleetch—but once you do, it's addictive. It feels good to open up to perspectives that are foreign to you, accept your complicity in this shitty system, and work on making the world better for everyone instead of just defending your territory. It's something I had to do as a privileged white woman, and something I still have to work on every day, because it's right.

like every day you work on it really like a half an hour before you blog or what, theres a sense that having discovered this magic key to understanding everything you better genuflect in its presence holding your vile animal impulses deep within

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:00 (seven years ago) link

I mean tbf, people do the same thing to working moms who blog about trying to balance career and parenting -- inevitably someone drops "first world problems" shtick which is the same thing.

--808 542137 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:01 (seven years ago) link

i mean i guess in brief if you're using sociologically meaningful language that actually applies to people from communities that face unique categories of oppression, the way some people use otherkin notions to explore trans/queer identity, it's one thing. but if you're using it because you think you're a purple pony inside and why won't society stop oppressing you for being a purple pony in the body of a straight white dude, you are first against the wall. to an extent.

― hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, April 9, 2013 2:49 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah whatever the value of the term, seeing it hijacked by deviantart brony types is pretty nauseating

goole, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:02 (seven years ago) link

sometimes its useful to remember that suffering is universal

four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:03 (seven years ago) link

maybe when there's loads of aging bronies still desperate for a unicornotomy we can take them serious

life went on, sadly (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:05 (seven years ago) link

ha that shit is so far out

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:05 (seven years ago) link

reminds me of a recent letter to dan savage scolding him for saying that being polyamorous was not a "sexuality" on par with being gay. it was an... arrangement. or a hobby. or a kink. or a need. or some other thing, he said (i forget). hoo boy were people pissed! mr "monogamy is a myth" himself! everything has to be at the level of fundaments of identity. in this way i think this intersects with american language of the rights of the self in constitutional-legal term but i haven't thought that through yet really

goole, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:06 (seven years ago) link

There was a thing maybe posted in some ILX thread about the "privilege" enjoyed by primary vs. non-primary partners (sorry if this is the incorrect term) in various kinds of polyamorous relationships. I thought this was kind of a narcissistic usage -- being a "non-primary partner" is not a trait, it's just a status in a particular arrangement.

--808 542137 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:07 (seven years ago) link

i prefer bottom bitch

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:08 (seven years ago) link

"speaking as a side piece..."

goole, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:09 (seven years ago) link

remember college when people used "privilege" as a verb all the time? I don't think I've heard that in a while.

--808 542137 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:11 (seven years ago) link

i feel like people should be challenged to check the validity and fairness and logic of what they're arguing or what they believe, not their right to say anything at all given their background. i mean surely if someone is speaking in a way that's blinded by privilege then their views can be taken to task?

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:00 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

very quotatious post

hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:13 (seven years ago) link

also yes i feel like a heretic for hating the tone of jezebel but i hate the tone of jezebel so fucking much

hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:14 (seven years ago) link

yeah for sure many seek to silence rather than engage via the #privilege tag

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:14 (seven years ago) link

don't out me for that i would be shunned and would have to be like 'check your jezebel-liking privilege'

hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:14 (seven years ago) link

haha

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:15 (seven years ago) link

i like lindy west tho i can for sure see why she might grate

lag∞n, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:16 (seven years ago) link

i like privilege as a concept insofar as it makes people self-reflect on their own circumstances, and if it makes people think more about the experiences of others, especially those of a different race/gender - i hope that ultimately it leads to empathy, which i think is what will save us all

generally i think anything that makes people self-reflect / become more self-aware is a good thing

乒乓, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:16 (seven years ago) link

that should be jezebel's marketing campaign

to the extent that I sometimes don't like the jezebel tone it just seems symptomatic of the larger annoyingness of that Bloggin' TM voice that I think there's a thread about.

--808 542137 (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:17 (seven years ago) link

mirrors are cool too

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:17 (seven years ago) link

i can see that. they are certainly zealous and it seems like they don't make a ton of space for people dealing with this for the first time, which may be a tactical mistake as well as unfair. the org's most concrete outreach thing is this https://integratedschools.org/two-tour-pledge/ which is a lot more "we'll meet you halfway".

it's only SJ martyrdom if the "bad" schools are actually bad for your kids though, and i think one of the points we (and they?) would make is that most of *our* kids are going to be fine at most schools because of how the world works. in the limit of "no school is too bad" though that breaks down because, yeah, some are too bad.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 19:31 (seven months ago) link

I think "our kids will be fine" is rather vague and not sufficiently backed by evidence. The only evidence usually cited is that wealth and parental educational attainment are the biggest predictors of success. That is a far cry from saying "affluent kids turn out fine no matter what." They don't.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 19:53 (seven months ago) link

Another flaw I find in their discussions is they seem overly focused on elementary school, which IME is the age at which the differences will be least stark.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 19:54 (seven months ago) link

DCPS has plenty of schools that are too bad. Thankfully there’s the lottery, so you can still send your kids to a good or great school that’s also integrated. I’m still pissed about the pass we give to charter schools though (pats self on back)

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 7 January 2020 19:56 (seven months ago) link

I think "our kids will be fine" is rather vague and not sufficiently backed by evidence.

correct. i'm glossing. but if i add a "probably" in there then it is backed by evidence.

fwiw i found this comment useful on that evidence, which is basically what you say: https://ask.metafilter.com/329141/Do-we-move-to-a-better-school-district-If-so-when#4738658.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 20:21 (seven months ago) link

Another flaw I find in their discussions is they seem overly focused on elementary school, which IME is the age at which the differences will be least stark.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:54 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

your complaints seem to be to do with them being too zealous, but the choice to focus on elementary seems tactical and pragmatic:

it's easiest to persuade nervous parents of the principle that academic stakes are lowest at that level. and elementary schools perform much better on paper than middle/HS in her home town, so it's a particularly easy sell in practice. and if your goal is to get people to go to public schools, it's best to start at the top of the pipeline, not near the end. so it makes sense to me to focus the effort and rhetoric there given their goals.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 20:29 (seven months ago) link

For more Hannah-Jones and a wonderful 8-episode podcast about the history of schooling and integration/segregation in a Brooklyn district and recent events in parent organizing, may I suggest

https://www.schoolcolorspodcast.com/

The hosts are leaders of a local org that I have worked with and adore. The podcast and the history that it describes has been intensely present in my life because I've been employed by the teacher's union for almost 5 years and smack in the middle of this wreckage. Several of my colleagues work in affected schools in District 16.

I think this is a much more nuanced take from the perspective of actual Black parents of public school students, one which doesn't claim to have all the facile answers like "always do this" or "never do this." Fucking great imo.

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 20:51 (seven months ago) link

I do generally like her, so I'll give that a listen.

I find the "how to be a sufficiently good white person" stuff hard to stomach as it just seems so navel-gazing. Which is why I posted all this to the "privilege as a meme" thread.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:06 (seven months ago) link

I think "our kids will be fine" is rather vague and not sufficiently backed by evidence.
correct. i'm glossing. but if i add a "probably" in there then it is backed by evidence.

fwiw i found this comment useful on that evidence, which is basically what you say: https://ask.metafilter.com/329141/Do-we-move-to-a-better-school-district-If-so-when#4738658.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:21 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't think this really resolves my issue though. Again, this just goes back to saying that family income etc. are bigger predictors than other factors. That doesn't mean the other factors are insignificant. It's a little like saying "Don't bother to exercise, the biggest factor in weight loss is diet."

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:17 (seven months ago) link

I want to change the course of this conversation with this: https://www.thecut.com/2020/01/lingua-franca-and-the-rise-of-the-resistance-socialite.html

totally unnecessary bewbz of exploitation (DJP), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:24 (seven months ago) link

xpost oof. i'm was agreeing with you, not trying to resolve your comment like a jira ticket.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:31 (seven months ago) link

i'm was

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:31 (seven months ago) link

I, on the other hand, am absolutely trying to move your comment to Code Review

totally unnecessary bewbz of exploitation (DJP), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:32 (seven months ago) link

my revive of the wikipedia thread was supposed to be about code review if that helps.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:49 (seven months ago) link

I am abiding by the pledge I saw on twitter to avoid commenting on that article (the one DJP linked) or giving it attention. If we ignore it, it'll go away. It does not need thinkpieces or discussion.

babu frik fan account (mh), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 22:50 (seven months ago) link

Headline + picture + first paragraph = I'm done. Can't go any further.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 23:29 (seven months ago) link

I didn't get all the way through that article because once I saw that she started Guest of a Guest with a Winklevoss, I started checking on what the new ex-gawker editor who got fired? like a month after being hired is doing (bustle).

Yerac, Wednesday, 8 January 2020 00:50 (seven months ago) link

I don't have kids, won't have kids. I don't make the decisions about schooling that parents have to make, so the idea of telling anybody what they should do, making everything a test of individual morality ... it's abhorrent to me, honestly.

Having said that, the argument I've read - I don't have a cite, but I feel like it was a good argument - was that busing was the turning point for the civil rights movement. All that progress of the 1960s but rich or middle-class white parents didn't feel safe having their kids go to inner-city schools, so poof, no busing, no kids growing up experiencing being around people different from them, and without that, the whole thing just crumbled. Probably an overstatement, but a good argument.

And is there ressentiment in there? Sure, some. Maybe it's, if I don't get to send my kids to safe schools nobody does. Because the only people whose experiences matter are the rich white suburban parents, and the belief, maybe, is that if rich white parents had to go through this and couldn't get out of it, well, they'd have no choice but to make the schools safe. Or else find out that there's no way to do it. You can't make my life better, well, at least I can make your life worse, and if that's the only kind of justice possible, fuck it, let's go with it.

But this is all in the abstract, like I say.

revenge of the jawn (rushomancy), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 00:58 (seven months ago) link

for me private school feels like opting out of society.

that and the fact that, at least in England, when i think about the kind of kids there are at private school, and what sort of people they are.... i shudder. even if i could afford it 20x over i would not really want my kids running with that crowd!

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 01:11 (seven months ago) link

ftr i haven't commented on the article that Dan posted because it was making me hyperventilate

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 13:40 (seven months ago) link

For more Hannah-Jones and a wonderful 8-episode podcast about the history of schooling and integration/segregation in a Brooklyn district and recent events in parent organizing, may I suggest

https://www.schoolcolorspodcast.com/

The hosts are leaders of a local org that I have worked with and adore. The podcast and the history that it describes has been intensely present in my life because I've been employed by the teacher's union for almost 5 years and smack in the middle of this wreckage. Several of my colleagues work in affected schools in District 16.

I think this is a much more nuanced take from the perspective of actual Black parents of public school students, one which doesn't claim to have all the facile answers like "always do this" or "never do this." Fucking great imo.

― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:51 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Thanks for the rec! I'm up to episode 4 now and it's really good, and also especially fascinating since it feels close to home -- my dad was living in brooklyn at the time and became an NYC teacher in a mostly minority school only a few years later. And it even explains exactly how my weird-ass gerrymandered school district that spans all the way from Rego Park to Jamaica got formed (in reaction against decentralization and local control, but also as a partial compromise between that and total centralization).

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 15:29 (seven months ago) link

Those large districts are now the vehicles of the current diversity push, which is based on recommendations from a mayoral committee (the School Diversity Advisory Group) that the city should strive to make the demographics of each school in a district as close to the district as possible. This is a hard thing to do in my district because it's so large and parts of it are underserved by transit.

A similar process was just done with mixed success in D15, which is mostly Park Slope and Sunset Park -- several schools became much more integrated, but the "lowest performing" and most geographically remote from the affluent part of the district didn't change much.

I also happened to look up PS 307 in DUMBO, which was the subject of a TAL piece and reporting by Nikole Hannah-Jones a few years ago when it was being rezoned with a brooklyn heights school. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the makeup of the school changed as much as hoped -- it's only like 11% white, although I imagine that's still a big change from before.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 8 January 2020 15:33 (seven months ago) link

five months pass...

Right now especially I am really disliking the fact that we are using "privilege" to refer to what should be ordinary rights and activities - going for a jog, not being followed around a store, not being shot by police, etc. I understand the intention but I find the emphasis to be so deeply wrong - first, it places the white speaker at the center of attention, second it seems to come from a spirit of self-flagellation rather than generosity. How about, instead of feeling guilty for having these basic rights, we say "everyone should have these things, they are not privileges."

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 02:45 (two months ago) link

Right now especially I am really disliking the fact that we are using "privilege" to refer to what should be ordinary rights and activities - going for a jog, not being followed around a store, not being shot by police, etc. I understand the intention but I find the emphasis to be so deeply wrong - first, it places the white speaker at the center of attention, second it seems to come from a spirit of self-flagellation rather than generosity. How about, instead of feeling guilty for having these basic rights, we say "everyone should have these things, they are not privileges."

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 02:45 (two months ago) link

we are using "privilege" to refer to what should be ordinary rights and activities - going for a jog, not being followed around a store, not being shot by police, etc.

I was saying to my wife a couple of days ago that the primary solution to the problems posed by black oppression and police brutality is to place far more power in the hands of black people. It's black disempowerment that is the heart of the matter.

imo, because power in the USA always comes down to money, a very good place to look to jump start this process would be paying some kind of reparations for slavery, along with some provisions to ensure that the economic resources so provided remain largely in black communities and largely under black control for a generation or two.

For those who say such a thing would be unthinkably expensive, just point to the CARES Act, which iirc, committed to spending about $2 trillion dollars over the course of three or four months and was scarcely debated a day or two before passing.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 8 June 2020 03:24 (two months ago) link

That does seem about right.

I also can't help but feel like there is this subtle, possibly unintended intra-class conflict negative to the whole "privilege" thing, where it's like "Yeah you're a white person making $30,000 a year and drowning in student debt, but you should feel thankful you have that and even guilty about it, because the black people on the other side of your city have less."

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 03:27 (two months ago) link

isn't the point that these things are, effectively, a privilege, if everybody doesn't have them?

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Monday, 8 June 2020 03:37 (two months ago) link

these things are, effectively, a privilege, if everybody doesn't have them?

As I learned the word, a privilege is some benefit which accrues to some person or group automatically upon entry into the status which grants it. If the granting status is 'whiteness', then the privilege is automatically granted at birth. Each genuine privilege or benefit remains realizable for as long as one's status remains eligible, even if it is never utilized. It's like the theory of inalienable rights, but for special rights not human rights.

Some privileges which are identified as accruing to all whites may be class privileges that have been misidentified as white privileges, but that is understandable, since greater ease of upward class mobility is among the many white privileges and these things can blur at the boundaries.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 8 June 2020 03:57 (two months ago) link

isn't the point that these things are, effectively, a privilege, if everybody doesn't have them?

― I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:37 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

There's no question that that's the point that is supposed to be getting across, and I'm saying I don't like that framing, because the subtext is "feel guilty that YOU have these things and other people don't" instead of "everyone cleary should have these fairly minimal things."

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 04:00 (two months ago) link

there was some of that on my wall this weekend, where my ex's ex-husband got accosted and told he was abusing his privilege for posting frequent non-protest stuff on his wall.

he's known for exaggerating so idk what *really* happened but

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Monday, 8 June 2020 04:03 (two months ago) link

yesterday i saw like two instagram stories within 5 minutes where people were like "dear white friends: if you are not using your instagram stories to post about the protests, please be aware that it is a privilege to refrain from doing that! if your instagram story doesn't currently have something relevant, i see you!"

but like idk maybe it's just that i think instagram stories aren't a very good way to spread information or make meaningful statements? but i felt guilty anyway and found something useful to post so i guess it worked.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 8 June 2020 04:18 (two months ago) link

(i should clarify that both of the ppl who posted those stories were white.)

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 8 June 2020 04:20 (two months ago) link

if people of color are required to post nothing but content related to the protests, then the ability to post other content is indeed a privilege granted only to whites.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 8 June 2020 04:27 (two months ago) link

otoh, if posting any kind of instagram content that is unrelated to the protests is a prima facie case that the person posting has spent no thought upon the reasons for the protests, or dismisses their importance, has no interest in them, or simply ignores them because they feel uncomfortable thinking about them, then - yup - those are definitely manifestations of a white privilege. so, it all depends on several factors not clearly established by the choice of instagram content alone.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 8 June 2020 04:36 (two months ago) link

There's no question that that's the point that is supposed to be getting across, and I'm saying I don't like that framing, because the subtext is "feel guilty that YOU have these things and other people don't" instead of "everyone clearly should have these fairly minimal things."

i don't think that's true, although i have often felt that way. guilt is one way of processing all of this, and a very natural one, for a white person. but i don't think it's a productive way, or the intended consequence of thinking about white privilege. and when i feel that way, it is almost always a framework that i am putting on myself, not one that other people are putting on me. by itself, before i add my own bullshit on top of it, "white privilege" is an acknowledgement of the gap between our real living conditions and lived experience. what we do with that information and how we process it is up to us

Karl Malone, Monday, 8 June 2020 04:36 (two months ago) link

otm

I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Monday, 8 June 2020 04:44 (two months ago) link

"white privilege" is an acknowledgement of the gap between our real living conditions and lived experience.

this was poor writing, sorry. i am tired. i meant the gap between the living conditions of white people and the lived experience of non-white people

Karl Malone, Monday, 8 June 2020 04:49 (two months ago) link

xp yeah my feeling on the whole "you are privileged if you are not sharing x on instagram" is (1) well no not really but (2) that's a pretty effective way of getting people to share stuff on instagram, and ultimately who cares, you don't actually have to do it.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 05:22 (two months ago) link

There is also something about privilege-acknowledgement that feels, to me, uncomfortably like saying grace to society rather than being outraged at injustice I guess.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 05:25 (two months ago) link

Good news everyone moved on from the privilege thing like 5 years ago mostly. The new meme is abolishing the police.

all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 8 June 2020 05:27 (two months ago) link

not in my facebook feed!

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 05:32 (two months ago) link

Maybe quit Facebook, dunno what to tell you dude

all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, 8 June 2020 05:34 (two months ago) link

yeah, facebook fucking blows

Karl Malone, Monday, 8 June 2020 05:40 (two months ago) link

I'm too old for tik tok

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 8 June 2020 05:49 (two months ago) link

ty Karl

There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Monday, 8 June 2020 12:37 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

not really specific to this thread, but since we discussed integrated schools, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 31 July 2020 22:22 (one week ago) link

IDK if there's a critical mass of people for a thread on school integration, but it's an issue I've followed a lot. Interested in that podcast for sure, particularly as I try to reckon with the fact that I attended an integrated middle school and a 90-95% african american high school but haven't prioritized school integration for my kids.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 1 August 2020 04:42 (one week ago) link

Is it easier to integrate virtual classrooms?

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Saturday, 1 August 2020 21:13 (one week ago) link

will be interested in your thoughts xp

found this completely maddening btw. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/27/parenting/children-screen-time-games-phones.html. i can see why people find the privilege self flagellation of, e.g. the integrated schools movement (above) a turn off, but the smugness with which she concedes that she has no idea what she's talking about because of privilege, and then proceeds to tell people what to do, is on another level.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Saturday, 1 August 2020 23:05 (one week ago) link

Oh, I worked with that author once, and yeah, I can’t say I’m surprised she wrote that.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 2 August 2020 01:01 (one week ago) link


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