Literary Clusterfucks 2013

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Beginning to think maybe a rolling thread might be good. Anyway:

So Alisa Valdes just publishes this memoir about this cowboy of hers and how he's a man's man and now's she's a woman like never before and etc. That link's to Hanna Rosin's review, and she's essentially going "Um...you sure?"

And then Valdes publishes this today.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:15 (eight years ago) link

That said, a lot can happen in two years, especially when you’re in a relationship with a man as complicated and volatile as the cowboy.

j., Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:17 (eight years ago) link

"what I actually wrote was a handbook for women on how to fall in love with a manipulative, controlling, abusive narcissist."

just what the world needed. like a poke in the eye.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:32 (eight years ago) link

jesus

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:35 (eight years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FORoSB5JxCU

"Cowboy up."

jim, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:44 (eight years ago) link

none of these people are really writers

― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, June 4, 2010 1:18 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:49 (eight years ago) link

wtf @ that whole story

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:50 (eight years ago) link

polo shirt under a jacket, tho

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:50 (eight years ago) link

I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy.
You see by my outfit that I'm a cowboy, too.
We see by these outfits that we are all cowboys.
If you buy a cowboy outfit, you can be a cowboy, too.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:50 (eight years ago) link

damn nm I just actually read this shit how f'd up

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:07 (eight years ago) link

i keep reading her name as alida valli

difficult listening hour, Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:27 (eight years ago) link

jesus

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:37 (eight years ago) link

I don't know if we do this around here but there's some srs abuse and sexual assault triggers in Ned's second link

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:47 (eight years ago) link

it's probably a good thing that she's posting a picture of her rapist on the internet, now we can watch out for him

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:51 (eight years ago) link

man that's a tough read

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:51 (eight years ago) link

cowboyfucks

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 03:11 (eight years ago) link

How much you wanna bet that Mr Cowboy is gonna be a MRA talking head

Theodora Celery, Thursday, 10 January 2013 03:49 (eight years ago) link

In 2001, Valdes emailed a 3400-word resignation letter to her superiors at the Los Angeles Times. The letter was widely circulated on the Internet[ and reprinted in the St. Petersburg Times. In the letter she accused the newspaper of racism and discrimination, especially in its synonymous use of the word "latino" with "Spanish-speaker", a practice she equated to genocide.

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 03:54 (eight years ago) link

buzza are you suggesting that alisa valdes is hysterical or otherwise to be dismissed

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:32 (eight years ago) link

this is not the elizabeth wurtzel thread

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:35 (eight years ago) link

And so, even though I was 43 years old and have Lupus

WHY DO THESE FANFICCY CRAP ROMANCE NOVELISTS ALWAYS HAVE LUPUS OR FIBRO WTF.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:36 (eight years ago) link

hm prob should have read the whole post of hers before making light. still, this shit brings the whole 50 shades bullshit into its awful, true light.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:46 (eight years ago) link

Considering Valdes wrote one of the single most amazing demolitions of a horrible person ever, reading/seeing all this...yeah.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:43 (eight years ago) link

okay that was awesome. thanks for linking that Ned

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:48 (eight years ago) link

still cannot get over her story with the cowboy. so fucked up. I mean, just that it reads so familiarly, is so sad to me.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:52 (eight years ago) link

this is not the elizabeth wurtzel thread

oh, okay then

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:55 (eight years ago) link

“An irresistible, post-feminist Taming of the Shrew. Don’t be scared by the premise. This is not a story about a woman relinquishing her identity. Quite the opposite. It is a riveting tale about how a brilliant, strong-minded woman liberated herself from a dreary, male-bashing, reality-denying feminism.”

– Christina Hoff Sommers, author of The War Against Boys; How Misguided Feminism is Harming Our Young Men

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:24 (eight years ago) link

a practice she equated to genocide

ugh fuck this, there is like a 100% chance she was referring to cultural genocide, a term used for decades and not meant to imply the actual murder of a group of people

#guy #guy fieri #poop #hallway (zachlyon), Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:25 (eight years ago) link

http://www.sptimes.com/News/110300/Floridian/The_language_of_genoc.shtml

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:37 (eight years ago) link

buzza idgi are you trying to damage the credibility of the woman who basically just announced she wrote a book about a man who raped her

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:39 (eight years ago) link

apparently so?

it's tough when you can only speak in the form of revived threads

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:53 (eight years ago) link

seemed like zachylon wanted the context of the wiki quote so i provided it?

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 08:02 (eight years ago) link

thank you for posting it

she does make a clear distinction between the two types of genocide tho she doesn't mark it with "cultural" or something similar. she does 'equate' the two but that's sort of the idea, while the wiki editor left out any of that context and framed it like "she compared this one tiny linguistic choice with the holocaust", fuck wiki

#guy #guy fieri #poop #hallway (zachlyon), Thursday, 10 January 2013 08:56 (eight years ago) link

"literary"

Broken Clock Britain (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 10 January 2013 09:18 (eight years ago) link

I have a lot of thoughts about this whole thing and also some feelings but none are organized enough to share except for, Jesus, Lady--at least when I did that I didn't write a book about it.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 14:49 (eight years ago) link

considering that one of the major goals of feminism was to protect women from the power imbalances present in domestic relationships, it's not super surprising that valdes' paean to how feminism got romance wrong and how there's something special about a real man turned out to be about an abusive asshole. i don't mean to suggest that she deserves what happened in the least, but there is a sort of irony that the very political principles she decried in the context of this relationship turned out to be especially relevant to her needs.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:01 (eight years ago) link

xp On second thought that makes it sound like my experience was as extreme as hers: it was not. I also didn't put it in those terms of submission etc or posit that it revealed anything about how feminism has failed us. And I didn't have to jump out of a moving truck although after getting hit by an actual car frankly I'd take another one of those accidents over another of those relationships.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:03 (eight years ago) link

there is a sort of irony that the very political principles she decried in the context of this relationship turned out to be especially relevant to her needs.

It's not like that's a coincidence. She decried them because she was being told to.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:07 (eight years ago) link

really want some blogger to try to get a reaction out of christina hoff summers

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:13 (eight years ago) link

I usually assume "How I did X and Changed My Life" memoirists are flighty, superficial and unrealistic people, because shit just doesn't work like that. This is a particularly egregious example.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:25 (eight years ago) link

This is a horrible horrible story.

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:40 (eight years ago) link

btw, I regret my above post, having apparently made it without really reading most of the story in her blog post.

However, the blog post is now gone.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:44 (eight years ago) link

?!

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:44 (eight years ago) link

this just got a little clusterfuckier

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:46 (eight years ago) link

without the followup blog post this is kind of incoherent

she wrote a fluffy romance novel that seems to spend half its time scolding modern feminism, then revealed that the man she was writing about raped and abused her and (this is where things are fuzzy to me) the whole novel was a double-feint?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:52 (eight years ago) link

it's a memior!

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:53 (eight years ago) link

ergh

so, replace "romance novel" with "memoir"; is the rest accurate?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:54 (eight years ago) link

Yup.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:54 (eight years ago) link

huh

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:55 (eight years ago) link

Given some of the things she was also saying about her publisher I wonder if that had something to do with it.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:55 (eight years ago) link

hate ashberry? only hippies!

it is to laugh, like so, ha! (Aimless), Thursday, 9 September 2021 00:38 (one week ago) link

Ashbery wrote some great poems.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 00:55 (one week ago) link

I've read his long book-length poem, FLOW CHART, and after that, I never wanted to read him again. Not because it was bad, but because it sort of sated me for life.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 00:56 (one week ago) link

I'm into Ashbery, not knocking him, but Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror was the first book to sweep all the big poetry prizes in a single year, and (in the same way Raymond Carver would soon after for aspiring fiction writers) it divided those who followed him and those who felt marginalized by having an out-of-fashion approach.

One poet told me a story of how Ashbery took the podium once with two folders of poems. After doing the reading from one folder, he realized he had read from his rejected poems--implying that his games made irrelevant a "better" or "worse" one.

... (Eazy), Thursday, 9 September 2021 01:09 (one week ago) link

I love ashbery but I find some of the more frequent comparisons (to Stevens) puzzling and he makes for more sense to me as an heir of Laura riding and Marianne Moore, both of whom I love and both of whom he spoke of as influences. Particularly Moore's odd mix of looseness and precision, her love of banal language cropped strangely that gives them a common urban folksiness.

plax (ico), Thursday, 9 September 2021 10:26 (one week ago) link

"Urban folksiness"! I love it. Sorta reminds me of Marjorie Perloff reacting to a poem by Charles Bernstein in this episode of PoemTalk (starting at around 09:45)

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/podcasts/151679/these-squiggles-a-discussion-of-as-if-the-trees-by-their-very-roots-had-hold-of-us-by-charles-bernstein

Nature's promise vs. Simple truth (bernard snowy), Thursday, 9 September 2021 11:51 (one week ago) link

Eazy, that story makes sense— Ashbery in his day was an absolutely notorious drunk, a prof of mine had to chaperone him once and left him passed out on the lawn of another poet's house.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:29 (one week ago) link

as long as he didn't commit sexual assault that's cool

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:31 (one week ago) link

xp table -- I was talking to someone a few weeks back who had second thoughts about the ZH Open Letter incident from 2014 (?) (i forget whether it was 2013 or 2014)

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:32 (one week ago) link

and yes -- that was indeed a Literary Clusterfuck

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:33 (one week ago) link

Ashbery or my prof? Haven't heard tell of the latter, and all I know about Ashbery is that his female students report that he was often very cold toward them and their work. He was a learned homo of a certain generation, after all, so the misogyny is almost a given, unfortunately.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:35 (one week ago) link

lol I was referring to the issues in the infamous open letter incident of 2013/2014

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:36 (one week ago) link

re: the open letter and fall out from the Bay Area Poetry Summit in 2014— Z4ch H0uston *did* assault two friends of mine, that much is certain. I think that many people have realized that running abusive dudes out of town isn't a good solution, particularly in the frameworks of restorative justice and mercy, but this has to be a two-way street. The abusive individual has to listen to and own up to what they did, and in the case of ZH, he was refusing to do so.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:39 (one week ago) link

But in terms of other fallout from that? Did some of the other dudes who were merely acting "creepy" deserve to be put on blast and expelled from the scene? I don't think so.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:40 (one week ago) link

I think that many people have realized that running abusive dudes out of town isn't a good solution, particularly in the frameworks of restorative justice and mercy, but this has to be a two-way street.

Agreed ... I think I also found it "funny" that this Bay Area poetry scene was capable of "running someone out of town" ... in that the people seemed very ... non-threatening in that way. Reading the letter, it definitely did the thing where it lumped all the offenders together and listed a range of "crimes" in a way that it could be read that, hypothetically, a dude who accidentally elbowed a woman and caused her to spill her wine was actually a rapist.

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:45 (one week ago) link

Like, yeah, the rapist who didn't want to take accountability -- that's a real thing where I supported the community stepping up -- I forget whether the guy who threw the beer bottle and hit Chr1s R at Adobe Books was part of this or if that was a later thing and that guy just got banned from stuff as a result of Safe Space policies that grew out of the open letter Poetry Summit incident.

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:48 (one week ago) link

I think bottle thrower guy was named Kevin, but he wasn't any of the Kevins I knew or knew of in that scene -- a 3rd rate Kevin this bottle thrower guy was.

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:51 (one week ago) link

No, that was later. I don't even know about that!

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:52 (one week ago) link

I think that was 2015 -- Chris at Adobe announced that the store was closing and the reading group had to go, and 3rd rate Kevin rebelled against this act of authoritarianism by throwing a beer bottle at Chris and hitting him in the side of the head or something ...

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:54 (one week ago) link

Oh, was it Kevin Keating?

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:55 (one week ago) link

lol. that would make sense. Keating ran the "Yuppie Eradication Project" in the Mission for many years, which mostly consisted of him passing out fliers and then yelling at the Station 40 people for being "lifestylists" lol.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:56 (one week ago) link

We're way beyond literary clusterfucks right now, tho.

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 15:56 (one week ago) link

hahah it wasn't Kevin Keating!! He was my first thought though!!! Trying to recapture the glory days of 2000 when he wheatpasted posters encouraging people to torch SUVs to combat gentrification and overthrow capitalism. Keating was a 2nd rate Kevin ... this guy was 3rd rate.

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 16:06 (one week ago) link

Killian is obv the 1st rate Kevin ... the ur-Kevin as it were

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 16:07 (one week ago) link

We used to call Keating "Mr. Clean" and "cue-ball"

Kind regards, Anus (the table is the table), Thursday, 9 September 2021 16:09 (one week ago) link

lol

sarahell, Thursday, 9 September 2021 16:11 (one week ago) link

all I know about Ashbery is that his female students report that he was often very cold toward them and their work

There's an Ashbery poem in And The Stars Were Shining that I've wanted to go back to, concluding in a line about (as I remember) keeping a doorstop in the office door so that it's open a crack. It didn't point to anything bad/scandalous, but seemed to have to do with boundaries of intimacies.

Other than that, all's I know from Edmund White's NYC memoir is that he and Ashbery hooked up.

... (Eazy), Thursday, 9 September 2021 20:58 (one week ago) link

Ashbery was hot in the '70s

plax (ico), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 01:59 (five days ago) link

Sorry for this vmic post

plax (ico), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 01:59 (five days ago) link

you need to post a jpg

sarahell, Wednesday, 15 September 2021 06:59 (five days ago) link

Lol u get the idea

plax (ico), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 08:56 (five days ago) link

So rude

plax (ico), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 16:53 (five days ago) link

Sorry, was not intended to be.

What Does Blecch Mean to Me? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 17:33 (five days ago) link

Wondering if silby reads this thread, probably not.

What Does Blecch Mean to Me? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 17:33 (five days ago) link

^ xp plax

sarahell, Wednesday, 15 September 2021 18:05 (five days ago) link

Ruffalo as Ashbery biopic, dir. Todd Haynes.

... (Eazy), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 18:28 (five days ago) link

be still my beating heart

sarahell, Wednesday, 15 September 2021 18:29 (five days ago) link

Ruffalo toured a friend's apartment in the Mission many years ago. Apparently he's a very nice guy.

I'm a sovereign jazz citizen (the table is the table), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 18:41 (five days ago) link

my husband saw MR at a coffee shop in silver lake once and freaked out lol

have also def heard my husband talk about the anti-yuppie protest stuff sarahell and tabes were talking about a few days ago, he lived in the mission in the late 90s/2000s

i don’t write poetry or even read tons of it but i do like learning about poetry gossip/clusterfks. B’s not on Twitter so sometimes i find out about stuff before he does lol (eg the danielle rose thing)

donna rouge, Wednesday, 15 September 2021 19:12 (five days ago) link

I'm also not on Twitter. Better this way.

I'm a sovereign jazz citizen (the table is the table), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 19:22 (five days ago) link

Oh, I'd come, I remembered, chiefly to see my own reflection.

— John Ashbery (@AshberyEbooks) September 15, 2021

... (Eazy), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 19:36 (five days ago) link

I semi-recently watched the movie where MR plays the West Virginia lawyer (the area is near where my Dad's family was from, though they had moved prior to the plant being built). ... I am always here for MR content

sarahell, Wednesday, 15 September 2021 22:02 (five days ago) link

how norm spent his 54th birthday... shitting on bret easton ellis pic.twitter.com/V7Ugk4qb7Z

— 🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌🤌 (@immolations) September 14, 2021

... (Eazy), Wednesday, 15 September 2021 22:58 (five days ago) link

be still my beating heart

― sarahell, Wednesday, 15 September 2021 18:29 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Haha yes!!!

plax (ico), Thursday, 16 September 2021 08:38 (four days ago) link

Wondering if silby reads this thread, probably not.

― What Does Blecch Mean to Me? (James Redd and the Blecchs)

You never know

Clara Lemlich stan account (silby), Thursday, 16 September 2021 15:16 (four days ago) link

:)

What Does Blecch Mean to Me? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 16 September 2021 15:35 (four days ago) link


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