Thread of Max Brod Hate

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max brodie

iatee, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:28 (six years ago) link

no way thank god for brod

Mordy, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:28 (six years ago) link

<3 B-rod

buzza, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:32 (six years ago) link

Bro-d

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:32 (six years ago) link

Max Brah'd

how's life, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:33 (six years ago) link

Max Brodcore

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:33 (six years ago) link

Thread of Brash Mod Hate

how's life, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:33 (six years ago) link

In 1921, he told Brod that his last testament would consist of “a request to you to burn everything.” Brod promptly replied that he would do no such thing: his main justification, in later years, for overriding Kafka’s wishes.

Brod was a singularly unappealing character, but not burning those novels or diaries was the right move.

Brad C., Friday, 9 November 2012 15:35 (six years ago) link

I have been pondering the ethics of Brod's decision for ages. Personally I cannot but be happy for his transgression and Kafka wasn't around to take umbrage, so...

Un monde où tout le monde est heureux, même les riches (Michael White), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:35 (six years ago) link

"Take my papers and burn them!" is some emo drama attention-seeking bullshit anyway. No way he meant it.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:37 (six years ago) link

of course he meant it, he burned 90% of what he wrote

beef richards (Mr. Que), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:37 (six years ago) link

yo brod apologists go get your own thread this is for people who think something than their own aesthetic jollies actually count for shit

xp He could have burned the remaining 10%, too, but he gave it to his number one fan instead.

Brad C., Friday, 9 November 2012 15:40 (six years ago) link

fully support the right of artists to destroy their own work, but I'm just saying

Brad C., Friday, 9 November 2012 15:41 (six years ago) link

FK: Take my pornos out and burn them! Before my mom gets here.
MB: I will do no such thing.

how's life, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:41 (six years ago) link

guys it's cool, i was in an emo band for like a day that was called Kafka's Ghost and we contacted him to see if he was cool with it, he was, and also said he was fine with brod too, so no worries

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:41 (six years ago) link

his "friend" had the stuff already because he liked having his friend read it while he was alive. The idea that a guy who torched all the shit he himself personally had copies of didn't mean it when he told his friend "burn the stuff you have or that I didn't get to" is so self-evidently false (and Brod's "I told him I wouldn't do it" so totally, obviously a self-serving claim without substantiation) that there's no real counter save "lol, keep telling yourself that"

p. shocking to me that Mordy's in the pro-Brod camp though - don't you do work in ethics, Mord?

Haven't read the piece.

Whether Kafka meant it or not is neither here nor there, don't care if its false. When you show your work to someone else you pretty lose your rights over its ownership and its eventual fate.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:43 (six years ago) link

^^^ most odious opinion I can imagine on this subject

When you show your work to someone else you pretty lose your rights over its ownership and its eventual fate.

no way you sicko

beef richards (Mr. Que), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:44 (six years ago) link

oh sweet so the new Aerosmith is mine?

(xpost)

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:44 (six years ago) link

let's ask jose luis borges what he thinks

The fact is, a man who really wishes to see his work consigned to oblivion does not entrust the task to someone else. I believe that Kafka and Virgil did not truly want such destruction to take place; they merely longed to disburden themselves of the responsibility that a literary work imposes on its creator.

yeah but then again he said burn them.

The case of Franz Kafka seems to be more complex. His work could be defined as a parable or series of parables on the theme of the moral relationship of the individual with his God and with his God’s incomprehensible universe. For all their contemporary setting, his stories are less close to what is conventionally called modern literature than they are to the Book of Job. They presuppose a religious conscience, specifically a Jewish conscience; formal imitation of Kafka in another context would be unintelligible. Kafka saw his work as an act of faith, and he did not want it to discourage other men. Because of this, he asked his friend to destroy it. However, I suspect further reasons. Kafka knew he could dream only nightmares and was aware that reality is a continuous sequence of melancholy nightmares. Added to which, he appreciated the dramatic potential of delays and postponements; this is apparent throughout his work. But both these themes, melancholy and delay, undoubtedly wearied him in the end. He might perhaps have preferred to be the author of a few happy pages — such as his honesty would not allow him to write.

ok forget i asked.

woof, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:44 (six years ago) link

death of the author

乒乓, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:45 (six years ago) link

Harlan Ellison wants his wife to do the same thing, really hope she pulls a Brod so we can get the last fucking Dangerous Visions book.

C-3PO Sharkey (Phil D.), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:45 (six years ago) link

Borges is a book fiend and will craft any self-serving argument in the service of there being more books in the world

Harlan Ellison wants his wife to do the same thing

is this really true? he's so in love with the sight of his own name it's hard for me to imagine but he's also a big control freak so I can see it. w/TLDV the stories should all revert to the authors obviously but anything he wrote for it should be consigned to the fire barring other instructions, should he ever die, which he probably won't, he's probably got some AM the supercomputer future already mapped out

Proust's maid obeyed her master's wishes to burn his papers and diaries I think. Now she was the sick one - only thing is there is so much else left that it will keep us busy enough so its not as disastrous if Brod had complied w/K.

I think Genet meant to burn one of his novels and never went through with it and wish he had...can't remember which one now. Probably being a cry-baby like K.

Artists just make the work, and that's the way it should be.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:52 (six years ago) link

^^^ guy keeps making my point for me about how diligent artists much be in destroying as much of their work as possible. meanwhile I'm getting a Proust's maid tattoo, there's an actual hero for you

every destroyed work is a victory against the grotesque sense of sensate entitlement expressed by "readers"/consumers like xyzzzz___

so, the platonic ideal as a professional artist is to sell your work to people who will immediately burn it without consuming it, is the takeaway I'm getting here

I loves you, PORGI (DJP), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:56 (six years ago) link

the ideal situation is to make the one work that cures you of the desire to create, destroy it, and go back to being a line cook

DJP - what you are getting is an "artist" being a drama queen.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 9 November 2012 15:58 (six years ago) link

well that's just unpleasant

I loves you, PORGI (DJP), Friday, 9 November 2012 15:59 (six years ago) link

“What is it they want from a man that they didn't get from his work? What do they expect? What is there left of him when he's done his work? What's any artist, but the dregs of his work? the human shambles that follows it around. What's left of the man when the work's done but a shambles of apology.”

beef richards (Mr. Que), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:01 (six years ago) link

^^William Gaddis

beef richards (Mr. Que), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:01 (six years ago) link

"My dear friend Max Brod, when I die, I ask of you one thing: burn my Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Foursquare, Yelp, LinkedIn, Gmail..."

乒乓, Friday, 9 November 2012 16:02 (six years ago) link

I plead guilty to the grotesque sensate entitlement indictment but the fact remains, that you and I have read works that Brod rescued. Like Borges I am a book fiend, but the ethics of Brod's decision aside, we are nonetheless enriched by his (conceivably) pernicious acts.

Un monde où tout le monde est heureux, même les riches (Michael White), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:02 (six years ago) link

Franz K is the mayor of Jungborn sanatorium

woof, Friday, 9 November 2012 16:05 (six years ago) link

that's kind of an unsustainable position re: kafka, xxyyetc. He did the hard work of destroying the stuff he still owned afaik - claiming "drama queen" on artists who actually do the best they can to get their wishes carried out isn't fair or sporting. I mean I get that you're trapped in an 80s understanding of the death of the author but everybody else moved on from that shit ages ago.

there's certainly an aspect to this that is akin to having amazing, mindblowing sex with the corpse of the person who kept telling you "no" while they were alive and wearing provocative clothing

I loves you, PORGI (DJP), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:06 (six years ago) link

brb, jackin'

otoh "The Trial" rules

I loves you, PORGI (DJP), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:06 (six years ago) link

woah

In most respects, Brod and Kafka could not have been more different. An extrovert, Zionist, womanizer, novelist, poet, critic, composer and constitutional optimist, Brod had a tremendous capacity for survival. In his biography of Kafka, Ernst Pawel recounts how Brod, having been given a diagnosis at age 4 of a life-threatening spinal curvature, was sent to a miracle healer in the Black Forest, “a shoemaker by trade, who built him a monstrous harness into which he was strapped day and night.” Brod spent an entire year in the care of this shoemaker, emerging with a permanent hunchbacklike deformity, which did not impede him in a lifelong series of overlapping relationships with attractive blondes.

beef richards (Mr. Que), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:08 (six years ago) link

aero have you read the stuff Brod saved?

beef richards (Mr. Que), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:09 (six years ago) link

the ideal situation is to make the one work that cures you of the desire to create, destroy it, and go back to being aline cookn insurance adjustor

Yet he singularly failed to do this and referred to contemptuously to his Brotberuf.

Un monde où tout le monde est heureux, même les riches (Michael White), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:09 (six years ago) link

two things seem pretty obvious to me:

1. leaving aside kafka's wishes for the moment, we are all extremely fortunate to have kafka's work to read
2. max brod is a steaming pile of human shit. blatantly betraying the written wishes of the dead, particularly a dear friend, is about as shitty as it gets.

all mods con (k3vin k.), Friday, 9 November 2012 16:10 (six years ago) link

dead people are dead

iatee, Friday, 9 November 2012 16:13 (six years ago) link

I think we should make the world a better place for people who aren't dead cause their happiness matters more than dead people happiness

iatee, Friday, 9 November 2012 16:14 (six years ago) link

it's okay, man, i've never even read a book

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:19 (six years ago) link

serious answer - no, I haven't read Kafka since I was a teenager. Plath I return to every few years. Her journals aren't her work, she prepared Ariel for publication iirc, there's controversy over the order I think but she had it in MS

unless archie double digest counts

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:19 (six years ago) link

though i never did read that unpublished archie ghostwritten by sylvia plath that got leaked to the internet a couple years back

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:20 (six years ago) link

from what i understand it was the bleakest jughead/big ethel shit though

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:21 (six years ago) link

Kafka's one of my blind spots. Every time I remind myself to reread him I go, "I will. What's for dinner?"

the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:22 (six years ago) link

he would have approved of your basic indifference

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:23 (six years ago) link

i basically had to read all the major kafkas three times to 'get' them but it's totally worth it.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:25 (six years ago) link

from what i understand it was the bleakest jughead/big ethel shit though

yeah it was almost...kafkaesque

archie's world is pretty kafkaesque anyway

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:27 (six years ago) link

perpetual adolescents trapped in the same banal routine for 60 years, overseen by indifferent higher powers

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:28 (six years ago) link

good description of ILX

the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:30 (six years ago) link

good description of life imo

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:31 (six years ago) link

but then i'm pretty kafkaesque

idiot man-child (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:31 (six years ago) link

http://www.boingboing.net/filesroot/200912211140.jpg

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:31 (six years ago) link

omg

yeah that's classic

Force Boxman (Shakey Mo Collier), Saturday, 10 November 2012 01:00 (six years ago) link

serious answer - no, I haven't read Kafka since I was a teenager. Plath I return to every few years. Her journals aren't her work, she prepared Ariel for publication iirc, there's controversy over the order I think but she had it in MS

― Inconceivable (to the entire world) (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, 10 November 2012 00:19 (57 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yahhh this shit is way more heinous on hughes' part than burning diaries tbh?

Yorkshire lass born and bred, that's me, said Katriona's hologram. (thomp), Saturday, 10 November 2012 01:20 (six years ago) link

like i think diaries should remain out of the public sphere unless their author seems particularly to be invested in their becoming part of the public sphere, whatever

plath's ordering for ariel kind of creates a sequence in which i. the speaker is deeply unhappy specifically because she's realised her husband is a bastard ii. she comes to some kind of independence, dignity, progress; hughes' version turns it into founding document of the sylvia plath myth, makes her romantically destined for suicide due to her own chemistry

Yorkshire lass born and bred, that's me, said Katriona's hologram. (thomp), Saturday, 10 November 2012 01:22 (six years ago) link

n.b. plath may have been destined for suicide due to her own chemistry, i don't know that and no one does, the point is she didn't write a book about that. (and being abandoned by the father of her children, leaving her with two children and no real income, probably didn't help.)

Yorkshire lass born and bred, that's me, said Katriona's hologram. (thomp), Saturday, 10 November 2012 01:24 (six years ago) link

http://threewordphrase.com/gregor.gif

s.clover, Saturday, 10 November 2012 15:27 (six years ago) link

lolol

six possible reasons why Obama won. Some are truly chilling. (bernard snowy), Saturday, 10 November 2012 16:42 (six years ago) link

I can't separate Cheever and Woolf's diaries from their achievements though :(

the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 10 November 2012 17:04 (six years ago) link

cheever wanted his published, which was tbh itself kind of an asshole move

Yorkshire lass born and bred, that's me, said Katriona's hologram. (thomp), Saturday, 10 November 2012 21:21 (six years ago) link

I don't know anything about Woolf's diaries and from the tone of Alfred's post I'm glad that I don't 'cause her books are great

I meant her diaries are as great as her novels.

the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 10 November 2012 21:26 (six years ago) link

O I thought the frowny face meant you couldn't make the separation and you wish you could

When someone asks which Woolf to read I say To the Lighthouse, Orlando, The Waves and A Writer's Diary.

the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 10 November 2012 21:37 (six years ago) link

what about the diary of anne frank?

plax (ico), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 00:40 (six years ago) link

did Anne Frank have a friend who she explicitly asked to make sure her diary be destroyed?

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 01:37 (six years ago) link

anne frank wanted her diaries to be published -- she actually went back and rewrote earlier entries that she didn't think were good enough.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 01:54 (six years ago) link

wish I could find the Cynthia Ozick essay about Anne Frank.

the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 01:57 (six years ago) link

I cannot stop laughing at that last Gregor samsa comic

Lamborghini mercy, yo sledge she's so percy (m bison), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 02:03 (six years ago) link

I have not read Kafka since high school which I loved at the time, but I want to read it again since I may be able to appreciate the humor more as a well adjusted adult than when I was a brooding teenager

Lamborghini mercy, yo sledge she's so percy (m bison), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 02:05 (six years ago) link

it being the trial or Amerika or the shrt stories

Lamborghini mercy, yo sledge she's so percy (m bison), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 02:05 (six years ago) link

A broding teen

sleepingbag, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 02:08 (six years ago) link

aero dunno if you're still lurking this thread but I'm curious if you have established directives for the disposition of the undoubtedly extensive analog & digital materials associated with Aerosmith's creative process, vis a vis archiving/burning/cynical-easy-buck-making.

Infamous dickbiscuits (silby), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 02:40 (six years ago) link

in general I find the weirdnesses of artistic executorship fascinating. My favorite thing to think about is the Beckett estate's extremely active interest in ensuring that productions of his plays adhere to his directions. The estate recently failed to halt a production of Godot with female cast members, but as the article says, succeeded in that line in the past.

Infamous dickbiscuits (silby), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 02:47 (six years ago) link

am still pissed at Beckett's estate for nixing the all-Chuckle-Brother production of Happy Days

only Brod can judge me (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 02:59 (six years ago) link

FK was such a miserable awful person that I really can't be bothered caring what he might've wanted. Did he order Milena to destroy his letters to her? Unlikely, as that might've necessitated normal decent behaviour. Fuck that guy, man

albvivertine, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 03:44 (six years ago) link

OTOH: Publishing a desperately mentally ill person's writings c/d

albvivertine, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 03:46 (six years ago) link

CLASSIC why bcz lols

(jokes, obv)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 13 November 2012 03:50 (six years ago) link

The Castle is kinda funny tbh

albvivertine, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 05:28 (six years ago) link

the castle is really funny!

1staethyr, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 05:48 (six years ago) link

i'm bleak tho

1staethyr, Tuesday, 13 November 2012 05:49 (six years ago) link

one year passes...

It wasn't very conciously done as a result of my stance in this thread -- more part of me reading/re-reading/trying to find more German Lit this year -- but I got around re-reading/more Kafka than I had in the past. I re-read The Trial (in a diff translation from the Muir), and then the letters to Felice and Milena, as well as the Diary, fo the first time.

All pretty incredible, anything this guy committed to paper was literature. Amazing to think of the conditions -- mental and physical at which much of this must've been written -- he transmit those to you, its the source of its power, but only one of many. The Diary is of such rigour. I only got to understand the points aero was making after reading it. He was incredibly hard on himself -- like an insight to what an artist with a capital A is really thinking. Its not so much whether Brod was his friend or not, its whether Brod understod him or not. If he had then you could see a burning. He didn't though = he did not understand his friend. And of course we all have friends we often don't understand.

There is a volume that collects the writing that Kafka published in his lifetime, tr. on Penguin by Michael Hofmann, and I suppose that + the letters to Felice - which he left no instructions for I suppose - would've been enough. I've been reading Buchner, and its about 300 pages worth of material there. I suppose my fear was that Kafka would've been wiped from history had Brod carried out his wish. It was silly to think so.

But in the end, no, you could never burn The Trial.

Probably fine to burn America as its first chapter was published during his lifetime.

Will get round to reading The Castle before the end of the year so I'll pass sentence then.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 5 September 2014 10:48 (five years ago) link

(slightly dull response to that post but)
how do you rate other translations vs the Muirs? (Me, I like them, but have spent very little time with other versions. )

woof, Friday, 5 September 2014 11:02 (five years ago) link

(at least someone has read my post thanks)
The answer to that is I don't know (must've read the Muir a decade ago). According to J.P.Stern (in the intro to the Scott/Waller translation) the Muirs broke up some of Kafka's sentence structures, at times.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 5 September 2014 11:20 (five years ago) link

two years pass...
two years pass...

https://www.thenation.com/article/who-owns-kafka/

S-, Wednesday, 11 September 2019 07:37 (one week ago) link


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