Citizen Kane: Classic or Dud?

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just for you Geeta!

robin carmody (robin carmody), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 05:47 (eighteen years ago) link

dud

spectra maddox kane, Wednesday, 18 September 2002 05:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I watched half of it on video and was unimpressed. It had that thing where newspapaers spin round in it. I am told I need the big screen experience. To make matters worse, the CK cassette knackered the video.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 06:03 (eighteen years ago) link

cold, cold, cold. The Third Man beats it hands down.

jon (jon), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 06:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Classic X 10. 30 seconds of it are worth two hours of anything else (even the Third Man, which only wakes up in the parts Welles did (or said he did), even The Magnificent Ambersons, which has Tenenbaums to feel guilty about, even Touch of Evil, which is either saddled with Henry Mancini or sadly lacking Henry Mancini depending which version you watch, even Chimes at Midnight, which as cinematic Shakespeare is only a little better than Kurosawa's efforts, even F for Fake, okay maybe not F for Fake).

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 07:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Badmouthing Citizen Kane: cineaste's version of debunking the Beatles / Elvis.

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 07:17 (eighteen years ago) link

ture, but I'm not remotely a cineaste, have always wanted to like it, have always quite enjoyed watching it, but it simply leaves me a little cold. like tiger woods, 'god only knows' and michelangelo, it seems utterly perfect at what it does, but oddly uninvolving/devoid of passion.

jon (jon), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 07:20 (eighteen years ago) link

the royal tenenbaums = bettah than kane obv

lady from shanghai = welles's best film ("pills! poison pills!" + the chinese theatre sequence leone nicked and wrecked in Once Upon a Time in America)

michelangelo matos = bettah than michelangelo obv

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 07:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Dying Rita Hayworth's hair = dud.

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 07:27 (eighteen years ago) link

b-but it's a bright guilty world!!

haha OW's irish accent is second only to tommy lee jones's in badness!!

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 07:32 (eighteen years ago) link

You forget Tom Cruise.

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 07:49 (eighteen years ago) link

when someone on telly was explaining the movie's classical status it dawned on me that you needed to understand things from a technical standpoint to 'get it'.

But the story and the way it isa told and Orson Wells are all very good in this. But if yo just take these things into account it's a very good movie and not the best of all time.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 09:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Technical Standpoint = "deep focus" etc = probably a bit of a red herring, I think with CK. It's like saying that the reason why Phil Spector records are great comes down to his recording techniques... OK, Welles' dexterity with "the best train set a boy could have" is a big part of the success of the film, but if it were the only reason, no one outside of film school would still watch it. Passionless? I think, in a funny way, for all its slyness, it's a tremendously passionate film, in the sense that it's a crypto-biography of Welles himself, which is why he has such diabolical investment in it all.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 09:23 (eighteen years ago) link

No Oirish accent could be worse than Angles har har "begorrarrr, to be shoooore".

Sarah (starry), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 09:25 (eighteen years ago) link

There's a letter in this month's S&S from Time Out's head film critic complaining that Pauline Kael's essay on it was appended as a mini-book freebie to the Top Ten of All Time (2002 remix) issue, on the grounds that the makers all thought this essay was a massive dis. I think the Kael essay is an exemplary piece of film crit — the sections on newspaper movies, screwball comedy, pop culture and democracy — and which goes right into why the film is ACTUALLY as strong as it is rather than the usual feeble snobster handwaving. eg she explores it as being as much the culmination of a decade of hollywood film-making as the arrival at last from mars new york/europe of intelligent art in a vulgar rubbishy world (actually it's a bit of both: also insofar as there's loads input from german-style film-making, UFA was rated as "art" in the 30s when it was actually often MORE vulgar and rubbishy than post-silents Hollywood)

(haha the argt is k-familiar to ilXoR, w. Bog Bogdanovich in the "rockist" role)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 09:47 (eighteen years ago) link

I liked it and I hardly ever watch films. Classic.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 09:51 (eighteen years ago) link

More than that, Kael's "character assassination" was I think far more helpful (in the long term) to, and probably much more appreciated by, OW (we've only got Bogdanovich's word that he moaned like a wounded buffalo when he read it), even to the crazy-old-Mankiewicz-did-all-the-donkey-work, Orson-you're-a-phoney - but crucially you're a BRILLIANT phoney! the point which anti-Kaelites always miss out - stance which PK took. As "F For Fake" - made straight after, almost as a reaction to, "Raising Kane" - clearly shows, he exulted in the magic of liarhood. Of course CK was an Expressionist screwball comedy; it wouldn't be worth our love if it weren't.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 18 September 2002 10:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Isn't the reason that people thought Kael (haha the evil general in Willow) was dissing the film was that she tried to problematize Welles as an auteur (ie she claimed that Mankiewicz the scriptwriter was the secret genius of it all)? David Thomson suggests that when Welles first got the deal with RKO he spent 6 months watching films before doing any work on Kane - and he may have been the first person to ever be able to review the whole history of Hollywood film in such a way - which supports Mark's culmination theory.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 10:06 (eighteen years ago) link

I think Citizen Kane works so well because it rediscovers the visual dexterity of late period (European) silent movies which had been sidetracked by the introduction of sound i.e a return to film as the medium rather than as a method of recording 'plays'.

Having a great script, actors (would it have worked as well without the mercury players?) and top notch technicians did it no harm too.

Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 10:41 (eighteen years ago) link

(BTW: have we "done" Kael before? I think she's a bit more problematic than a simple scourge of rockism [what is the cinematic version? I guess auteurism?] - if there were to be a pop equivalent I would have to say Bangs, despite the fact that, in a funny way, she kind of gave birth to Greil Marcus.)

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 10:43 (eighteen years ago) link

auteurism comes in two forms: she is v.agin the american version, which spun off towards the "un film de bog bogdanovich" ideology (eg the entire film is the brainchild of one person and a fleet of technical slaves) => however the french version argued a lot more complexly — actually not entirely coherently — that, counter the normal european idea of the romantic artist, the studio hack in the process of contesting the usual centrifugal tendencies of a big collective project, tended i. to stamp an authority of coherence in the process of collective work, ii. to work the "readymade" aspect of a movie by reserving elements of personal creativity/statement for the many unpoliced dimensions (for example mise-en-scene, or costume or colour or whatever...)

kael was ambivalent abt the second: but i think raising kane is actually a pro-auteurship (french version) essay, cz it says that the end-result came out of the contest of many elements

i do not insist on her being anti-rockist obv!! that wz a gag => however she was intensely suspicious of any Big Theory of Cinema which laid down a prior Essence of Cinema template and then judged movies by how well they matched up to this. She was I think an expert at noting how the material practice of pop contruction could produce more surprising, waywardly powerful stuff than idealist-moralising fetish-attachment to techniques and assumptions associated with past times with Important Art (for example, the caricature position that cinema which resembled theatre was by definition superior: hence her famous claim that spielberg was the first director ever not to have an imaginary proscenium arch pasted over his inner director's viewfinder — a claim proved by science on ile to be rub!!)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:07 (eighteen years ago) link

haha i did not see billy's post, in re "recording plays", seeing as i'm saying kael was agin this (but of course plays were ART in the 30s and german silent cinema wasn't...) (haha metropolis) (which i wub, but BOY is it not art)

i think the fact of OW sitting down and watching 1903847698 hollywood movies back-to-back is great: also urgent and key as marcello notes = he was a PRANKSTER ("let's fuck em up" = a good part of anything he ever did)

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:12 (eighteen years ago) link

is there a collection of Kael's writing (book)?

''(for example, the caricature position that cinema which resembled theatre was by definition superior: hence her famous claim that spielberg was the first director ever not to have an imaginary proscenium arch pasted over his inner director's viewfinder — a claim proved by science on ile to be rub!!)''

can you give me a link to that?


Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:17 (eighteen years ago) link

there's a series of collections of her new yorker reviews, julio: that claim is from her review of jaws, which is in the collection which covers the time jaws came out

there's also a best of: all of them are published by marion boyars

ptee provided the science, mainly but i forget what the thread was

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:21 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess what I like about Kael - what a like about any critic - is a sense of ambivalence. She was a great POP theorist and stylist, but had a weird conflicted attitude to the mainstream. She invented the Bonnie&Clydeetc etc generation (just as Bangs kind of invented punk) but could be perfectly haughty, eg her review of 'The Sound of Music': "the audience is reduced to the lowest common denominator... a sponge" - ie it was her Disco.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:23 (eighteen years ago) link

Citizen Kane is no Condorman

kinski (kinski), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:44 (eighteen years ago) link

I watched a film *about* Citizen Kane. It starred Malkovich as the drunken genius. The technical brilliance boiled down to digging trenches so that the actors would like more towering. It was a really rubbish film, the title was the studio serial number or something.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:51 (eighteen years ago) link

i have not seen it and probably never will due to the fact that i will obviously think it's CRAP due to the overwhelming weight of expectation/hype. still there was a v hilarious take off of it in "Earthworm Jim"!

katie (katie), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:53 (eighteen years ago) link

film abt cit kane directed by tim robbins i think

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 11:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Re: Kael - I can recommend For Keeps, a massive "best of" collection (1200+ pages!) that includes the forementioned Raising Kane. Of course she adeptly covers the classics, but it's also refreshing to read a fine, enthusiastic analysis of a movie like Re-Animator, too.

CK: classic. You can take away all the things cinegeeks drool over (technical feats, non-linear narrative, etc.), and you'd still have Welles's outstanding performance and a powerful story.

Ernest P., Wednesday, 18 September 2002 12:38 (eighteen years ago) link

'RKO 281' directed by Benjamin Ross, apparently, although it does have a Robbins feel to it. Also starring Melanie Griffith, so I get it mixed up in my head with that other film about film-making, the one by John Waters where she gets kidnapped. Perhaps they could mix them up bootleg-style.

I think the hype factor was one reason I found it so disappointing. Unlike the Beatles or Elvis, we're not familiar with CK from childhood on, so I don't think that analogy really holds up.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 13:01 (eighteen years ago) link

I loved it, not just cause I think every second of footage in that movie has worked its way into The Simpsons over the years, or video games or nearly every movie since then. The closest feeling I got was listening to Big Star for the first time thinking about how much Teenage Fanclub or Sloan drew from them.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 14:12 (eighteen years ago) link

classic.

sundar subramanian, Wednesday, 18 September 2002 15:35 (eighteen years ago) link

'...even the Third Man, which only wakes up in the parts Welles did (or said he did)...'
-- James Blount

Who was it pointed out that Harry Lime's dialogue is closer than any other character's in the film to the 'novel' (inverteds due to its function according to Greene)?

I suppose Cuckoo clock speech/income tax speech POO is something for a thread of its own?

P. S. CK = classic.

Tim Bateman, Wednesday, 18 September 2002 15:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Citizen Kane and Pauline Kael are both great!

Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually, there was a Tim Robbins Welles-related movie too: "The Cradle Will Rock." It had lots of singing in it, and came out a couple of years ago.

Nick A., Wednesday, 18 September 2002 17:03 (eighteen years ago) link

There are two great things about this thread.

1) "It had that thing where newspapaers spin round in it."

and 2) The fact that Jerry the Nipper mentioned Willow. Oh, I don't really have anything else to contribute but this. I have never even seen "Citizen Kane." I do hear that wee Kane spends his childhood in Colorado.

Mandee, Wednesday, 18 September 2002 17:08 (eighteen years ago) link

cradle will rock is what i was thinking of

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 17:10 (eighteen years ago) link

Julio, I have a couple of Kael collections, if you wanna borrow them.

It is very far from being my favourite film, and I get exasperated by its absurd standing, but it is a very good movie.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 18:29 (eighteen years ago) link

cool martin. i get back to UCL on monday 30th so I'll ask you then :-)

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 19:28 (eighteen years ago) link

julio i have the kane essay already so you can have my copy of the S&S freebie if you like

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 19:33 (eighteen years ago) link

I can't remember if I've seen Citizen Kane or not, I probably have but just not taken it in.

jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 19:33 (eighteen years ago) link

''julio i have the kane essay already so you can have my copy of the S&S freebie if you like''

thanks have you still got my home addy that i sent to you (or if you want to wait for the next FAP that's good too).

thanks.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 19:47 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah somewhere

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 19:52 (eighteen years ago) link

if you don't find it tell me and I'll email you.

my account has been doing some weird shit (and i'm too lazy to deal with it, magic shall sort it out) lately but hopefully you should get it (as long as picked up my time travel/telapathy email i sent you on sunday).

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 18 September 2002 19:55 (eighteen years ago) link

sucette66: i want to post on the citizen kane thread

clobberthesaurus: What are ya gonna say?

sucette66: that orson welles in his prime was TASTY! so therefore the movie is CLASSIC

clobberthesaurus: I don't even KNOW what's left to be said about that movie.

clobberthesaurus: Hahahahha

clobberthesaurus: Fuck NO!! It's all about JOSEPH COTTON!!

clobberthesaurus: HUBBA HUBBA!!

sucette66: i mean fuck this film theory and film review shit

sucette66: it's all about how FUCKABLE the actors are!!!

clobberthesaurus: Joseph COTTON can MASSAGE the back of my throat with his massive cock anyday!

sucette66: HA HA HA

clobberthesaurus: Of course him being dead makes it UNLIKELY!

clobberthesaurus: Hahaha

sucette66: i dare you to post that on the thread

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 19 September 2002 03:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh my god.

rosemary (rosemary), Thursday, 19 September 2002 03:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Thank you for your confession, Rosemary. ;-)

Citizen Kane is no Condorman

Orson couldn't move with Michael Crawford's natural grace.

CK = a damn good watch every time

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 September 2002 05:00 (eighteen years ago) link

This really needs to turn into a discussion of whether or not Joseph Cotton or Orson Welles was the better lay! So get started people!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 19 September 2002 05:31 (eighteen years ago) link

I know P Bog is an arse, but I don't see there's any reason to doubt his claim that Welles was upset by 'Raising Kane'. Kael's most damaging point - that Welles barely contributed to the screenplay of CK, and did everything he could to deny HM the credit - surely dented his rep as the great auteur of CK at a time when that's pretty much all he had left. I agree that a closer reading of the essay wld confirm that Kael essentially comes to praise OW not bury him, but when you've spent years and years trying to find finance and overcome yr (possibly undeserved) rep as a profligate, egotistical troublemaker, close critical reading maybe isn't uppermost on yr mind...

Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 19 September 2002 09:24 (eighteen years ago) link

A review of a new book interviewing Kael before her death makes some points I was hinting at earlier on this thread, to do with pop/populism/democracy:

[Kael] never mistook trash for art; never thought it elitist (or unimportant) to distinguish the two; never put forth that there was any connection, organic or otherwise, between the widely accepted and the good. Kael believed that every moviegoer could develop an aesthetic--but not that one necessarily would, just as she believed that a talented filmmaker could use lowbrow forms to create art, but not that the ability to master such forms could ever make one an artist. In short, she was a democrat but not a populist.

[...]

Kael also approaches the high/low question in her characteristically textured way: "One of the great things about movies is they can combine the energy of a popular art with the possibilities of a high art," she says. "What's wonderful about someone like Altman is that mixture of pop and high art. He's an artist who uses pop as his vehicle. That's part of the excitement in a movie like 'Nashville' ...Godard's 'Weekend' is another case in point." Here, in a nutshell, is one of Kael's key critical insights, one that underlies so much of what she wrote and admired and wanted other people to see and grasp and debate.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 09:12 (eighteen years ago) link

general kael was also a democrat not a populist!!

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 09:28 (eighteen years ago) link

five months pass...
Blount's statement that "Chimes at Midnight, which as cinematic Shakespeare is only a little better than Kurosawa's efforts" puzzles me. I mean, that's like saying something's "only a little better" than Shakespeare himself, Kurosawa's Shakespeare films are amazing! And Chimes At Midnight is probably my favorite film ever, and I really wish I had a copy of it.

I have a lot to say about Citizen Kane itself, too: I've seen it probably ten times and it means a lot to me. But where to start? For now I'll just say that the scene where Everett Sloane talks about seeing the girl in a white dress is possibly the most beautiful moment in the history of cinema. I'm really surprised by all the people who said they find it cold: certainly Kane himself is a rather cold person but the film itself always seems endlessly fresh, a burst of energy, something genuinely new then and now.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Saturday, 29 March 2003 12:03 (seventeen years ago) link

one year passes...
I never revived this thread a couple of months ago when I watched and loved citizen kane.

cºzen (Cozen), Monday, 23 August 2004 21:39 (sixteen years ago) link

Hmm, more later I think. Strange I never commented on this first time around. Suffice to say, genius even though Charles Schulz had long ago spoiled the ending.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 23 August 2004 21:45 (sixteen years ago) link

needs xenomorphs

latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 23 August 2004 21:45 (sixteen years ago) link

Suffice to say, genius even though Charles Schulz had long ago spoiled the ending.

I hated that, even though I like Peanuts.

Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Monday, 23 August 2004 21:52 (sixteen years ago) link

It had that thing where newspapaers spin round in it.

hmmm, does it really? i admit i've only seen it like 40 times but i can't recall one instance of this! (was it in the newsreel? because that's sort of supposed to be a corny effect)

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 23 August 2004 22:36 (sixteen years ago) link

it's on the opening "Newsreel" montage thingy.

jed_ (jed), Monday, 23 August 2004 22:38 (sixteen years ago) link

I assumed it wasn't corny then. It's hard to know your retrospective corniness.

I don't see how you can see the film 40 times and not remember this bit!

I'm glad I'm not the only one for whom Charles Schulz ruined it. Maybe he assumed everyone had seen it by then, even small children (except Linus).

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 07:43 (sixteen years ago) link

I've attempted to watch CK a couple of times and been very bored on both occasions. Old black & white films seem to turn me off, for some reason.

Jimmybommy JimmyK'KANG (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 07:47 (sixteen years ago) link

you're out of the club

s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 13:23 (sixteen years ago) link

Oh well.

Jimmybommy JimmyK'KANG (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 13:36 (sixteen years ago) link

It bored me too pretty much, i must say. CK not all B&W, of course.

jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 20:16 (sixteen years ago) link

when you watched it, were you using your eyes?

cºzen (Cozen), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 20:17 (sixteen years ago) link

even though Charles Schulz had long ago spoiled the ending.

Ha ha, yes, this happened to me too. DAMN YOU SCHULZ!

n.a. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 20:21 (sixteen years ago) link

people my age actually read Peanuts???

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 20:23 (sixteen years ago) link

Did y'all have a crush on Gidget and Annette Funnicello, too?

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 20:24 (sixteen years ago) link

People my age read Peanuts too.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 20:25 (sixteen years ago) link

i dunno how old you are, oops, but i don't know anyone who's never read peanuts.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 23:40 (sixteen years ago) link

I was born in Santa Rosa, so I've been Charles Schultzed to death.

CK classic tho.

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 23:43 (sixteen years ago) link

was never a fan though, can't even spell his damn name right!

Peanuts didn't ruin the ending for me, but something else did. Tiny Toon adventures?

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 23:45 (sixteen years ago) link

probably, that show was all about the obnoxious pointless "look how hip and clever we are talking about stuff only bored parents watching this will get" crap.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 24 August 2004 23:48 (sixteen years ago) link

twelve years pass...

Loved Carmela Soprano trying to get her mobbed-up film club interested: "Now, to give us some background, let's see what Leonard Maltin has to say."

clemenza, Tuesday, 30 August 2016 04:42 (four years ago) link

four years pass...

Saw a rep screening this afternoon (paired with Mank, which--weather permitting--I'll see tomorrow). I like J.D.'s post above: "But where to start? For now I'll just say that the scene where Everett Sloane talks about seeing the girl in a white dress is possibly the most beautiful moment in the history of cinema. I'm really surprised by all the people who said they find it cold: certainly Kane himself is a rather cold person but the film itself always seems endlessly fresh, a burst of energy, something genuinely new then and now."

I've never found it less than incredible, start to finish. I've also seen it called pretentious (by a certain cranky baseball writer--not important); even if you hate the film, that particular complaint strikes me as absurd. It's about as pretentious as Rock 'n' Roll High School.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iMy0969BTw

clemenza, Sunday, 22 November 2020 01:34 (one week ago) link

I don't know if this is even my favourite Welles film, but I was a little taken aback when Vertigo overtook Kane on the Sight and Sound list. I can understand Vertigo being someone/anyone's favourite film, but it seems too introverted to be a consensus pick. I guess most people have no more in common with the character of Kane than they do with the character of Scottie, but the Welles film obviously has more external scope and seems like it has "universal" implications.

I remember one of my film teachers saw Kane in its original theatrical run in 1941!

Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 22 November 2020 01:51 (one week ago) link

That's amazing.

I was disappointed with Vertigo's ascension too--subjectively, and also objectively for the reason you mention. This is not directed at anyone who considers it to be the better film, but, as I've mentioned before, I honestly believe that, generally speaking, Vertigo benefitted from the time it was out of circulation, when it's mystique grew and grew. Kane, meanwhile, became entrenched as The Greatest Film Ever that you just had to see. It became homework.

clemenza, Sunday, 22 November 2020 01:58 (one week ago) link

Also Vertigo was able to slot very easily into Lacanian film theory and the idea of the male gaze. Both films are rich in detail for analysis of male exploitation of women.

Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 22 November 2020 02:11 (one week ago) link

Good film imo

Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 22 November 2020 10:57 (one week ago) link

Just occurred to me that Kane and Vertigo both have Bernard Herrmann soundtracks, although you don't tend to see, say, The 7th Voyage of Sinbad on most best-ever lists so maybe it's not that.

fire up the curb your enthusiasm theme music (again) (Matt #2), Sunday, 22 November 2020 11:04 (one week ago) link

I’m sure I said it way upthread but Kane’s rep for me was sealed as a kid thanks to regular mentions by Charles Schulz’s characters. Which is also how I knew Rosebud was the sled.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 22 November 2020 14:05 (one week ago) link

Really? Interesting. Had to look that up.

Robert Gotopieces (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 22 November 2020 14:10 (one week ago) link

My first encounter with CK: a Saturday morning cartoon in which Vincent Price plays a ghost obsessed with Rosebud.

Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 22 November 2020 14:12 (one week ago) link

i agree that vertigo is a movie for people who love to think about movies. in my experience Most People do not like vertigo v much: it is boring and slow and keeps burrowing further into an extremely off-putting performance. i like it a lot but do find it hard not to interpret the shift from kane (a playful muckraking spectacle that wants you kept giddy) as indicative of a broader turn towards the academy in terms of who gets paid for anything to think about movies.

difficult listening hour, Sunday, 22 November 2020 14:26 (one week ago) link

Kael's phrase about Kane "a shallow masterpiece" applies more to Vertigo imo.

Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 22 November 2020 15:22 (one week ago) link

I played Kane's opening scene for elementary students for years on Welles' birthday (sometimes switching over to the shootout in Lady from Shanghai). I recall one student begging me (partly jokingly) for days afterwards to tell him (or her--can't remember) what Rosebud meant. "Can't do it--you will see it one day." I wonder if he did.

I realized yesterday that one supposed mystery--which at some point I began to accept myself--is easily explained: how was Kane's last word known if no one else was in the room? Raymond, his attendant (Mr. Sentimental), mentions the snow globe falling to the ground when Kane said Rosebud, the implication being that he was in the room watching over Kane, before the nurse enters, even though we don't see him.

clemenza, Sunday, 22 November 2020 15:54 (one week ago) link

My first encounter with CK: a Saturday morning cartoon in which Vincent Price plays a ghost obsessed with Rosebud.

― Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn),

Wasn’t that, like, The Real Ghostbusters?

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Sunday, 22 November 2020 15:57 (one week ago) link

it may have been

Patriotic Goiter (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 22 November 2020 15:59 (one week ago) link

^___^

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Sunday, 22 November 2020 16:00 (one week ago) link


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